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In 5e, they're the "create an anime character" class and the people who play them are 9/10 times massive faggots who just wana have magic without it actually being magic.

What is the point of having magic and not calling it magic in the same setting as actual fucking magic

It allows them to use their "magic" in anti-magic zones, as well as be immune to the effects of dispel magic, counterspell, and spell resistance (as their abilities are explicitly not spells). It's also worth noting their abilities don't have verbal, somatic, or material components, so good luck actually disabling them in any way likes you can do with other casters.

Fuck psionics, they don't belong in fantasy settings to begin with, but their mechanical execution in 5e is just goddamn horredous.

2ed made it unique and very different than magic.
3.5 fagged it up.

It should be a (Su) ability, so shouldn't work in null-magic zones anyway...

>5e
>(Su)

Pls, Pathfinder General is over that way, thanks.

The mystic still loses their psionics in anti-magic areas in 5e too.

>made it unique and very different

Most of the powers were just spells that failed occasionally.

In 5e powers are treated the same as spells, they can be countered and nullified and dispelled.

It's "unique and different" in 5e... and by that I mean you have to learn an entirely new set of mechanics that operates differently than every other spellcasting class in the game to fucking play with the psio-err, "mystic".

The sad thing is, I actually like their system better and wish all casters followed it, rather than using Vancian casting, but that's besides the point because it's still an entirely new set of mechanics to learn that the rest of the game wasn't built around.

God forbid you should have to read to play this game.

I'm gonna need a citation that, friend.

Let me know how I can counter-spell a Fighter's Action Surge, please.

Reading is fine, making a snowflake class who's mechanics were stapled on top of the base game and the base game wasn't original designed to work with is not.

I liked it in AD&D 2E even though it was broken as fuck

Would like to try 1E sometime just for the psionics.

Most were not duplicatable from magic, and few psionic abilities duplicated magic spells.

Each one stayed in their own lane pretty well.

No... just no. This isn't true at all. There are completely mundane abilities that count as "powers". Holy fuck you're retarded. Stop posting.

Psionic powers you sperg, and in the mystic class for 5e:
>Psionic disciplines are magical
and function similarly to spells.

1ed had wild talents, but I never tried a pure psionic class. I don't recall anything about them.
Fuck I'm old.

They're magical, but they're still explicitely not spells, so counterspell and dispel magic still don't work. Neither does spell resistance of any kind.

You've only proven they don't work in an anti-magic zone... maybe.

Yeah, because god forbid they should ever want to do anything different with the game's mechanics. That might make it too difficult for you to play by requiring you to read.

>I liked it in AD&D 2E even though it was broken as fuck
Most everything in 2ed was superior.

Yeah, the disintegrate power sure was different from the disintegrate spell.

Cast fist.

Only by virtue of 3rd being a garbage fire.

Would you like to try with an actual argument this time, or are you going to keep ignoring every counterpoint and just continue to screech "YOU HATE READING, I WIN TEH INTERNETS! LOL!"

Again, reading is not the issue here.The issues are:
1. Simplicity. Psionics adds an entirely new, parallel set of magic to the system that all of 5e has used to date. Any players or DM that wants to use psionics has to learn an entirely new set of "spells", "casting" rules, and interactions with existing rules.

2. The new interactions conflict with (nerf) the existing balance/usefulness of several parts of the game including spells (Counterspell), at least one feat (Mage Slayer), and every rule or feature that triggers or interacts with "spells" (since Psionics is explicitly not spellcasting). This steps on the toes of those races, abilities, classes, and feats that interact with magic or the existing spellcasting system.

3. Expanding on 2, lack of interactivity. 5e combat (and even social encounters to a degree) are inherently about altering your behavior as a reaction to the the environment, the NPCs, and your party. Before Psionics, when a magic user tried to alter a social or combat situation with magic, everybody present had a chance to see it and could act accordingly. The only exception to this rule was a sorcerer investing build resources and class resource to Subtly cast a spell (and even in that case they still have to be touching a focus). Psionics gets to completely bypass this pillar of the game for free- no investment required. Every discipline or talent a Mystic uses gives no indication it is about to occur, no way to prevent it from being "cast", and little indication of who or what caused it. This near-immunity moves the game away from interactivity to a space where Mystics simply get to do magic while others must always try to cast.

Most...not all.

Which wizard spell saw sound? And which absorbed disease?

You were honestly butthurt enough to write out that wall of text that I didn't read? Impressive. You're literally just whining that they did something different with the mechanics, get over it.

I can't really argue that much.

I like to steal their abilities and give them to martial classes. I think a lot of them can be flavored very nicely as a martial ability.

Actually it's a pasta from when Mystics were first released. Still waiting for an actual argument from the shitposting corner though. Please, feel free to actually debate a little instead of screeching like an autistic chimpanzee and flinging your feces everywhere like most Mystic fanboys do.

You're taking this a lot more seriously than I am. I don't take part in the 5e generals, and have only a passing familiarity with the game. What argument is needed? You're complaining that they did something different with the mechanics, which is fucking stupid.

>calling others shitposters while posting copypasta
>Iamthecancer.jpg

Mystics=5e name for psions?

This. Psionics were a mistake.

The sad part is, this doesn't even include the abilities that are flatout broken even in their own vacuum, like infinite darkness (no duration listed), the claw attack with no actions cost listed, charms that don't make a target aware even if they fail, and several other powers that just don't work RAW.

To be fair, the copypasta still has valid points, which would make for a much more interesting conversation than anything in this thread so far.

Yes.

>Yes.
I hate that name. And just when I thought I had exhausted all my hate for 5e.

As far as I can tell the only valid points are it not interacting with counterspell and the like.

The central whine (they're doing something different with the mechanics) is not just stupid, it's actively detrimental to the development of the game. During 3rd edition, some of the best things to come out of it came from them ignoring the previous frameworks and creating something some new entirely, this is how we got the binder, Tome of Battle, and the psionics rules.

>Psionics were a mistake.
Speaking of 2ed only, psions were a good fit.
Unique-ish enough to warrant their own class for sure. We had no trouble blending them in.

We also got fucked up weapon profs, fucked up item creation, and insane multiclass rules.

>makes an actual criticism of the pasta
>still on the "didn't read lol" joke

God sally, grow up.

There is specific rules text about this.

Those were all in the core book, so don't really apply. They were the basic framework, not a rejection of the basic framework.

...

>people actually want 5e to return to 4e's "Everyone is the same class but with different powers" system

Dumbfounding.

No one played 4ed.

Thus no one wants to return to it. Can'

Great in sci-fi games, stupid and gonzo in high fantasy games.

Dispel Magic
>Choose any creature, object, or magical effect within range.

Counterspell is the only interaction in debate, because magical effects are treated like spells in 5e - it either is magic or isn't, unlike 3.pf.

As long as it's on the main spell list for any other class it's dispellable according to the Mystic class text posted here Wu Jen spells are subject to dispel and counterspell, for example, even though you use psychic power to cast them.

Well it's a little more complicated because that is for PC interaction with NPCs (and another reason this magical interaction question is really stupid disincentive it's between a DM and player except for exceedingly rare circumstances), but the devs did say counterspell should work on psionics in 5e. However, they also said psionics are completely covert unlike spells by design - which makes it hard to justify using counterspell at all without detect magic or some other means of detection.

I started playing with 3.5e and I never understood the draw of psionics.

All of the edge lords I to played with with loved the classes, though, for whatever it's worth...

It's all the character optimization of a Wizard without any of the bookkeeping.

It got some dnd players slightly more used to the idea of having mana points instead of spell slots.

Partly nudged by psionics, DnD can inch closer to killing off the pseudo-vancian sacred cow and elevating the franchise in a way that makes it less painful to play and more accessible to modern gamers.

It's really not. Strictly speaking the psionic classes were inferior to the base casters.

I don't like non-monster player psionics on a thematic level. They might be fine for a setting like Eberron, but for Forgotten Realms or Mystara they just don't jive with my sensibilities.

Why not? They're literally just magic.

I've always thought that psionics were more of a sci-fi thing than a fantasy thing.

Psionics is NOT magic.

Magic is for losers.

Psionics is for the cool kids.

Psionics is for losers with weird eyebrows.

You do know that D&D at least borrowed from a genre that borrowed extensively from sci-fi, right?

I've allowed psionics in my game for nearly 20 years now, and there isn't a problem with psionics. There's a problem with psionic players having special snowflake syndrome.

To give an example, a player a while back asked to play a wilder (this was during the 3.5 days). She manifested a power to get a quest giver on fire. Said quest giver was a decently leveled psychic warrior who was not only immune to fire but had max ranks in Psicraft and figured out real quick. Said player threw a bloody fit, and did NOT accept that a 14th level psychic warrior could identify that a 15th level wilder set him on fire. She was also angry that after a reaction (the NPC's first impulse was to draw a blade and go on the defense), the NPC laughed it off as a prank and ignored that she was in fire (again, immune to fire).

>scifi
>magic
Pick one. If it includes magic(regardless of what you want to call it), it's not scifi.

I kind of like them in the context of 3.x. Half the problems with the system come from the vancian casting, anyway. Plus, there's less bookkeeping.

>I've always felt like it never fit the fantasy genre
You may be suffering from d&d induced retardation then, psychic shit originated in fantasy and myth with mystics and mediums long before sci-fi adopted it as a more "realistic" form of magic.
It has definitely fallen out of style and popularity though, the only mainstream modern examples I can think of are hellboy and various ghost/possession movies.

I somewhat agree but there are already fairly arbitrary sub-categories of magical powers with divine/arcane magic and a bunch of other shit.

That was supposed to be the idea and what people with only second-hand knowledge believe to be the case. Psions were supposed to be a wizard equivalent and wilder a sorcerer but the practical effect was that the psion was an inferior sorcerer and wilders even worse with a flawed gimmick.

Sci-fi basically co-opted it just as a more "realistic" magic.

D&D has always mixed scifi and fantasy elements.

Just about every DMG has had rules for laser weapons, each MM includes green brain-eating space aliens, and there's almost always some anachronistic tech lying around for funsies.

psionics sucks, but that's mostly because my group of friends sticks to D&D mostly and there have been 0 satisfactory explanations in D&D as to how psionics is different from sorcery wizardry. The fact that they can be quite munchkin-friendly and have a lot of corner cases doesn't incentivize their inclusion, either.

Your retarded. Psiinics has always been nullified in AMFs you dumbass. The only people who dislike psionucs are illiterate idiot s such as yourself.

There is. Psinics draw from internal powers if the mind and body. While Arcane magic draws from the planes/weave/leylines.

>psionics sucks, but that's mostly because my group of friends sticks to D&D mostly and there have been 0 satisfactory explanations in D&D as to how psionics is different from sorcery wizardry.

The sorcerer muscled in on the psion's turf, not the other way around. Psionics was introduced in 1976, the sorcerer was introduced in 2000. Psionics was about inner power and force of will, while wizards and clerics got their power from external, otherwordly forces. Then 3e introduced the sorcerer and made the psion redundant.

It's really the sorcerer that should be ditched. Psionics has its own feel and is important to several D&D settings, the sorcerer always feels like a knock-off wizard.

>munckin friendly
Psionics have been weaker than default arcane/divine magic for decades, man.

Psionics are, to me, horribly executed in most systems, and are often portrayed in a sort of comical superhero fashion. I prefer the more restricted, controlled psionics that can be seen in universes like Babylon 5 (Psi-Ops) and such.

>1. Simplicity. Psionics adds an entirely new, parallel set of magic to the system
See
>You're literally just whining that they did something different with the mechanics, get over it.
"Psionic isn't magic" is not a bug, it is a feature.
Attempting this whole point drags down your argument.

>2. The new interactions conflict with the existing balance/usefulness of several parts of the game
I can see this being a serious issue.

>3. Mystics simply get to do magic while others must always try to cast.
If true, I can see this being an issue.
Also, what about invisibility or other methods of concealing oneself?

When I adjusted my magic system to implement psionics, I ended up reducing the power slightly and the range significantly.
Primarily because it is an uncommon ability with few people having any defenses against it.
Psionics aren't nerfed, I don't think, but neither are they crushing others.
They are often sneaky, unseen casters though.

I like them I played a battlemind and psion in 4ed and I'm playing a awaken mystic now to test the take 3 pdf.

Don't like them.

Don't put sci-fi magic cheapout in my fantasy.

It's internal magic of the mind while ki is internal body magic.

I like psionics and psychic magic, and use them quite extensively in my worldbuilding. One the things I really liked about 4e,among many things, was turning the monk into a psionic class. Ki being a weird standalone feature for a single class, with no further ties to the rest of the mechanics or fluff never sat right with me. Ki being a bodily expression of psionics however makes perfect sense. The body's inborn power allowing them to perform supernatural internal powers is basically the same as the psions inborn power allowing them to supernaturally alter external reality.

Its also fun to play around with psionics being used by races you wouldn't think would have them. Like gnolls. Did you know that the spotted hyena is reputed to have a third eye in its head that allows divinatory powers, at least according to myth? And that common imagery about third eyes is tied to psychic powers? Now imagine gnolls with psychic halos telekinetically (pyrokinesis also works) attacking farms and towns on raids. Or gnolls that can see your thoughts and can track you across the plains by sniffing out your mind.

>Now imagine gnolls with psychic halos telekinetically (pyrokinesis also works) attacking farms and towns on raids. Or gnolls that can see your thoughts and can track you across the plains by sniffing out your mind.

No you're wrong because I said so.

Which is a hair-splitting cop-out, hence my derision. Wizards already have arguably the most powerful/competent brains in D&D, and somehow we're lead to believe that all of them just happened to miss the innate power that psions have. So either wizards have been using psionic energy all along and psions are not needed, or the very existence of psions punches massive holes in the entire game.

Mechanically, we already have innate casters in both warlock and sorcerer form, so they're redundant on that front as well. Actually, you could just make a psion a sorcerer sublcass in 5e with a curated spell list and nothing would be lost.

>Wizards already have arguably the most powerful/competent brains in D&D
2ed psions had power points based on wisdom/con/int combined.

Wizards had Intelligence, certainly. But lacked the other stats to represent the psions perfect blend of mind/body.

Also psions had to be lawful.

That sounds like a wizard? Not as martial as a monk, but similar in self discipline. Not as devote as a cleric, but similar in their devotional focus on their craft. Not as clever as a mage, but with the wisdom to back up their smarts.

Totally different.

Sorcerer's and Warlock's aren't Innate.

Sorcerer's still draw on external power, they just inherently know the rituals and shit wizards use to acess it.

Warlocks are explictly using borrowed power.

>Wizards already have arguably the most powerful/competent brains in D&D, and somehow we're lead to believe that all of them just happened to miss the innate power that psions have

Wizards also missed: clerical prayers drawing on the powers of the gods.

The innate power of the warlocks blast.

The bards knowledge.

The rogues ability to know where to strike for extra damage.

You have no issues with the wizards having "missed" those things? Why? Are wizards stupid or something? Or have you cherry picked you apple to Orange comparison.

>So either wizards have been using psionic energy all along and psions are not needed, or the very existence of psions punches massive holes in the entire game.
That's like saying "Barbarians have arms. Really strong arms! Why do we bother having monks."

They never fucking trained to use their minds like that. Wizards memorize formulae and shit to tap into arcane power and not exert that power themselves. If they did start training their minds like that they'd take a level in fucking Psion.

While we're on the subject on Wizards vs Psions. Every setting bar Dark Sun that contains both makes Psion's the uncommon one, but shouldn't it be the other way around?

I mean all you really need to start practicing Psionics is the appropriate amount of brain mass and the will to autistcally train yourself. Wizards need
>Books(which are expensive as shit, before getting into finding extra spell books and shit)
>Rare material regeants like fucking bat guano
>Ink
>Scrolls(more expenses)
Like it seems like only fairly advanced societies could produce Wizards, while it would be possible to find Psions from all walks of life? Am I being weird here?

Did 5e actually fuck it up and treat psionics entirely different again? Even 3.5 wasn't that dumb and had the "baseline" that psionics and regular magic interacts just fine.

It's because wizards are in core books and psionics in extra books, that's why psions are rarer. You can't expect your players to have 3 extra books, just to play the "regular stuff" in the setting

Psionics is just another form of magic, like Divine and arguably "nature" magic (although druid spells are often treated as divine too).
Plus that's a problem with class bloat anyway, because you need to print new stuff, you gonna end up with at least 3-5 different alterations of smart guy that casts spells

How can something be too weird for Mystara?

I understand the meta-reason why? I'm talking from a purely worldbuilding perspective.

It's not like books are even a fucking restriction now since you can probably find every fucking class in the game and print it out in like 5 minutes today.

>I'm talking from a purely worldbuilding perspective.
There's none, "worldbuilding" as often propagated here on Veeky Forums is rarely happens with commercial settings. They need mass appeal, cool hooks and stylish stuff that makes YOU, the player, want to come up with something that could happen there/a character that could be from there.
That's why you will more often find information on wizard colleges, druidic cults and the main churches/religions, because more people will probably drawn to it.

Cool. If you were paying attention for the last 3 editions that's no longer been the case. As it stands there's nothing significant separating psions from wizards in current era D&D. I'd like it very much if your scenario was still the current system, because at least then there'd be an argument for their inclusion.

Sorcerer power is explicitly their own, as a product of supernatural bloodline. They have a special quality, but they rely on no outside source to make use of it.

Wow, you might want to back off apples and oranges when you're clearly not even in the produce section. Every single option you mentioned doesn't make use of int (wis, cha, cha, dex), which is the mechanical reason psions don't fit. Thematically the wizard seeks to understand the laws of the universe and thus exploit them, and recognizes that clerics do the same thing with borrowed power from the gods. There's no reason to assume that someone seeking knowledge would randomly also be devoutly pious, which is the crux of my argument; in a world with psions there's clearly a logical gap when you assume that the people who use their brains to enact magic wouldn't discover their brains can enact magic.

How the fuck does one "train their mind", first of all. Is it just grunting a spoons for an hour? Because I seriously doubt the guys who memorize formulas that can alter time and space have "weak minds", especially when concentrating on spells has been part and parcel of their job description for a long time now, even in the heat of combat.

I mean who's to say you can't create the same draw with Psionics? Especially since no one really tries in the first place. I always felt like the whole "doesn't fit" issue is because settings don't try to make it fit in the first place. There's Dark Sun and that !India setting and that's it. At best you'll get one or two gods with the Psionic domain, a few aberrations, and maybe an NPC.

>How the fuck does one "train their mind", first of all. Is it just grunting a spoons for an hour?
Meditation. Atively training with their powers. Or yes, grunting at spoons for an our.
>Sorcerer power is explicitly their own, as a product of supernatural bloodline. They have a special quality, but they rely on no outside source to make use of it.
No they don't, except in 5e. They make use of the Weave like Wizards do. They just inherently know how. The whole "internal thing" is REALLY fucking recent, and is something 5e came up with.
>nothing to differentiate
There's plenty to differentiate, you're just being unwilling/stubborn to see it.

Show me where Psions in D&D summon Demons, cast Prestigidation, raise zombies, brew potions, keep toads as familiars, etc? There's more to them than "smart guy with supernatural power".

Because Wizards aren't using their brains directly. Their memorizing rituals and shit and tweaking the universe via gestures and words. Nothing is coming from them.