How do you make a LG church the antagonists of a story without resorting to fedora tier edginess or having the head of...

It's all a big misunderstanding and the evidence the church has compiled is evil deception-ery.

Easy, the pope was replaced by an evil doppelgänger

this, the current campaign I'm running for my players, the head of the church made it there through scheming and assassinations portrayed as accidents, and is using the church to bring about the apocalypse with their holy artifacts. head of the regional paladin order knows something is fishy and is rallying sympathetic men to his cause to siege the capital

easy
>religion teaches LG
>members aren't LG

>jrpg antagonist's philosophy of "people choose wrong, so I'll choose for them"?
Really, can't you apply this to every antagonist anyway?
>These people are choosing not to work for me for beans, I'll choose for them
>These people are choosing not to give me their delicious organ meats, I'll choose for them
>These people are choosing not to exercise their freedoms, I'll choose for them by tearing down the system
>These people are choosing not to use katanas and deagles, I'll choose for them by hacking reality's base code so they're better than other weapons, then let natural selection go to work
>These people are choosing to fuck around with extraplanar powers, I'll choose for them by cutting the material plane off from the outer planes

>fedora tier edginess
100% opinion based.

>Between two guys with conflicting interests one is always antagonist for each other
This

Sometimes a LG goal might just go against what the PCs want/need.

Prohibition. Players are bootleggers.

Prohibition wasn't good, though.

>>These people are choosing not to exercise their freedoms, I'll choose for them by tearing down the system
FREEDOM IS CALLING

TO ALL THOSE WHO BEND THEIR WILL

Like many real world religions, most of the practices are good. But recently usurpers have infiltrated the highest ranks to spread pain and misery

Lawful Good? So they're not evil? So why are they the antagonists?
The players must be evil. Or, they're both good, it's simply that the Law of said organization comes into conflict with the players.

The sterotypical romanticized version of the church is the epitome of LG. It is the inspiration of the trope.

This. This is good.

Mozguz from Berserk is a good example

>antagonists have to be evil

To put a different spin on this, there's two factions after a religious schism, and the players are on neither side.
The campaign is figuring out how to survive and possibly resolve or escape the war as dogmatic and well-meaning men turn crueler and crueler as neither side will give way.
There's a fair variety in just lawful good, and the church has many members. Miscommunication, tragedies of chance, volleying atrocities...

One of the troubles is there's not really a good reason for the god not to descend from the heavens and go "YOU LOT, STOP THAT SHIT THIS INSTANT"

The church's dogma is challenged by a discovery or revelation, and they work against the PCs pursuing that information, either because it's a genuine potential threat to society or just simple self-preservation.

Are you on favor of the rhinoceros horns' market?

>opening a portal to the birb dimension
>the local church vehemently denies the existence of a birb dimension
>PCs are at odds with the church because of this.
Sounds fun, user.

>The discovery of Monstergirls has lead to a deep schism within the church
>The Orthodox faction believes these ungodly creatures must be purged, citing that the doctrine of salvation specifically deals with humans, to the exclusion of non-humans
>The Reformist faction believes that monstergirls can be brought into the fold when they truthfully and honestly convert out of their own free will, citing the universality of the doctrine of salvation, as well as the fact that there wasn't a word for sapient creatures in general before monstergirls were discovered
>Some deranged harpy demands that a local bishop defines what it means to be human. When he defines it as a feartherless biped, she starts tearing off her own feathers to prove her humanity

Expanding on this idea: the players are the producers/transporters/sellers of another's region product, a product that the Church has forbidden for some reason (goes against the code; its unhealthy; its unethical to produce or hunt; etc), but for the producer region its a fundamental pillar in their economy and/or society.
Think of cows, the Church is hindu and the players are McDonald.
Or the product is cocaine, the Church is the DEA and the players are a cartel.
Or the product is acohol, and the players work as the mob.

I'm just rambling here.

>I ignored the last part of the post

Cheap, but effective bait. You even let people know you were fishing and still got a couple (you)'s.

>"Submit, surrender your weapons and pay our taxes. This land is now a land of justice, aka "ours". Your appointed governor will arrive shortly."

>without resorting to fedora tier edginess
What if the protagonists are themselves fedora tier edgelords?
>Crash funerals to remind everyone that there's no such thing as souls
>Accuse the church of corruption during charity gatherings
>Claim to have objective proof that the gods don't exist, even though the priest on the other side of the square just summoned an entire meal for hungry orphans
>Kill the archbishop in public by teleporting behind him
>Combat gear: katana (masterwork bastard sword), fingerless plate gloves, katana, leather jacket, cargo shorts, socks and sandals, no shirt

My guys are actually doing what's best to hold back the end of the world, but their methods are messy. The players find some information that could eliminate the need for said messy methods, but as far as the pope knows, that information could fuck everything up further. He's kinda right.

See You can either be members of the religion of the Creator or of that gnostic god promising Liberation.
Both sides have a good reason to be opposed hut are not evil.

They worship a god who is real, and is empowered by acts of good. Society is essentially a compassionate utopia.
However that god actually has the mind of a child, and will act amorally at some point, leading to a crisis.

It's actually just North Korea.

Something like the Intoners from Drakengard 3.

They're good people who genuinely want to help the rest of the world and protect the innocent, but due to one reason or another are fatally flawed in a way that ultimately runs counter to everything they stand for. Maybe the nature of the "god" they worship is more sinister than they believe and is simply using the (genuinely) good church as unknowing pawns to further it's agenda. Maybe the source of their power is somehow inherently evil and/or corrupting even though they see it is a blessing and try to use it as good. Stuff like that.

This and many other proposals in this thread run counter to the initial question. You're all essentially saying "The LG church isn't really LG at its core."

That's kinda missing the point.

>The LG church isn't really LG at its core
But they are. From the Intoner's point of view they are genuinely making the world a better place and the protagonist looks like some murderous psychopath gratuitously murdering people. If I remember correctly they're in the dark about the true nature of their powers and see it as a way to help those in need.

Not convinced. You're introducing a third, "evil" element that serves as the true antagonist. The LG church would be simply misled pawns and not antagonists on their own merits, and the heroes would be primarily opposing that corrupting power behind the church, rather than the church itself.

They're trying to pursue a number of vigilantes that have carried out unlawful executions.

The LG church wants something that puts them at odds with the LG protagonists.

Let's say orcs are preparing an invasion.
>Church wants to avoid bloodshed and, if possible, convert the orcs.
>Players want to end the threat quickly, risking as few innocent lives as possible.

Now let's say there's an evil artifact of doom your team possesses.
>Church wants to destroy it. They don't exactly trust a rogue bunch of adventurers to safe-keep something with world ending powers. It would be safer if it were gone for good.
>Players want to keep it safe. You know from first hand knowledge that destroying it would only unleash the unholy energies within. You seem like a nice guy, so the occasional follower might believe you.

Simply two forces working for one compatible end while using incompatible means. Tension will follow and, if allowed to fester, will turn into violence.

For extra credit make them genuinely good and at some point join the players against true villain. Nothing makes players like the NPC like him being viable combat support at some point.

>Of course we had to stop them and save you! They are the evil guys, aren't they? Do not go through the Wild Dog Pass, they have another amush up there
>...
>Okay Jones, but now hand over the map, I would hate to pull the trigger on that thing. Grail is one of the most sacred relics in creation and we need to secure it for the good of all faithfull

>This thing murdered twenty good men in my town. I don't care that YOU control it now and expect to capitalise that fact hard for your "good but lost moral centerpoint" faction. It's going back to hell NOW, for nothing good never came from mortals playing from such forces.

>tfw Church of Glabados

>Not convinced. You're introducing a third, "evil" element that serves as the true antagonist.
I see your point. Purely for the sake of argument I suppose you could still try and spin it to where the "antagonist" remains the church. Maybe the evil can't be fought in the conventional sense (As in less a demonic intelligence pulling the strings and more some sort of a dumb cosmic force) or otherwise depends solely on the church's actions to effect the physical plane. Something that emphasizes the church's own actions as ultimately (and unknowningly) leading to something bad over a sinister force in the shadows tricking them into doing it. I just really enjoy the concept of fighting against an anti-villain that could reasonably be considered more of a hero than the protag

If not that then the only way I can think of them being antagonists while remaining LG would be one of the conflicts of interests several others have suggested, be they practical in nature or dogmatic.

Conflict of interest does seem to be the better angle here.

Another one is that the church is going all lawful stupid and paladin-esque... because of a recent ussurper and local problems, and they want to give the impression of being "tough on crime", so to say. So they are counterreacting.

A third one is that the church is good overal, but the local guy in charge really really hates the party for some reason (legitimate, misunderstanding or pettyness). So he/she makes their life impossible whenever he/she can get away with it. Less of a grand enemy and more of an annoyance.

...go on

Its not a question of opposing goals - its a matter of opposing methods.
The church works within and with the law - a law that the real opponents can subvert.
The church practices mercy - and the rot continues to spread.
Both players and church are fighting the same people - who are unimportant small fry and not really relevant. The main focus is on the conflict of methods between the two.

That's actually good...

Yeah, this is probably the only way to do it without making either side look like assholes. The priesthood is probably a lot more concerned about the minutiae of doctrine. In the eyes of the church, the PCs are playing fast and loose but in the eyes of the PCs, the church is being rigid and unadaptable. The priesthood would probably be more annoyed with the PCs than they'd actively hate them. Enough to want them to go away and perhaps even oppose them, but not enough to make the two enemies.

Having to dodge the fuzz to do adventurer shit does sound like a reasonable complication, not just an annoyance. "Antagonist" doesn't necessarily mean "attempt to murder each other on sight", even though murder is a fairly large skillset of adventurers.
Being the only sane lawkeeper in a city that hosts the equivalent of the Dirty Pair would lead to some serious antagonism.

Stealing this.

By creating a conflict that isn't about good vs evil, but of competing visions of good.

Go for a Prime Directive sort of situation. Group of people, including Church, encounter primitive group of natives of some island. Church, while LG, wants to go one way, and the players, or whatever faction they support, wants to go another, also reasonable way. Bam.

The players are all outcasts hated by the church that marks them as sinners.

>the barbarian orc is a transexual pholimorphic metro binary female.
>The spellcaster is a full blown Marxist. His spellbook is literally the capital. He prays Lenin for spells, if he's a cleric.
>thief just wants to be allowed to sell loans and interests. Time is money, and God should stay out of there. A jew.
>ranger/druid riots for animal marriage, and believes he should be allowed to marry his horse. Also may be interested in joining a cult that speaks of free love and orange sun shines.

>A shemale, a commie, a jew and a goatfucker walk into a bar
>Western Civilization burns

>The players are all outcasts hated by the church that marks them as sinners.
Well, that's a given. But we were talking about their characters in-game here.

Going back to /pol/ with you, dear shitposters.

Okay, okay. I'll be useful. I don't even browse /pol/. Just have a shitty sense of humour, I guess...

With some tweekings ok could go about a "evangelization" type of game.
Like San. Francesco did, going in Egypt trying to convert people, the party could do the same. At first they could be successful in small towns and cities on the seaside, just to carry enough momentum for the church of the mainland they are evangelizating in to notice them and, understandably wanting them to return home.
Bonus point if the land they're visiting is a theocracy. But in case beware about fedora territory.

It's a shitty idea but that's the best I've got.

>Players have goals
>Church has goals
>These goals oppose each other
>Church is still made up of mostly good people though
Done

>The church and the PCs both agree that gays are degenerate
>They disagree on whether or not traps are gay

Jesus said they're gay though

WIND OF DESTRUCTION

I'd suggest shellfish cause it's the easiest one. They may taste goddamn delicious, but there's a good reason they're not kosher. If you fuck up cooking them they can kill you super quick

Hmmm. I would say by having them go all "War on Drugs." on the population. Nanny state where they attempt to prolong the life and health of everything as best they can by banning or eliminating things they deem dangerous.

They'd never try to kill anyone either, they'd just put them in nice padded cells till a state hypnotherapist could explain to them why their actions are misguided.

Make it a misunderstanding that for whatever reason, the players cannot clear up immediately

In The Fugitive, are the US Marshalls bad guys, even though they want to capture the protagonist and put him in jail? No, they're just cops doing their jobs, and the Protagonist cannot prove their innocence whilst in custody.

So you frame your PC's for something. Quick and dirty example

>Nobleman is secretly an evil cultist
>PC's somehow stumble on this secret
>Nobleman rather convincingly frames the PC's for HIS crimes
>PC's are now on the run from the Inquisition and trying to gather proof to clear their names AND stop the Nobleman from summoning mega satan
>There could even be a Church Official on the inside willing to tenuously work with the PC's on the grounds of a hunch, but because of the law the man hunt for them cannot be called off

Then it's just a matter of giving some reason the usual framework in place to prevent these sort of things failed so the church doesn't look hopelessly inept or incompetent. Or, use the resolution as a way to put the PC's ally in the church into a position of greater authority so he can enact reforms that prevent this sort of thing.

>the intoners
>good

I thought the whole thing with the Intoners was that they actually weren't, like, really really weren't good. Even the goodest among them was still a sadist who hated people

By making them dumbshit busybodies who waste everyone's time on causes in which their intervention is worse than the original problem?
I mean, just look at protestant wives and the prohibition. LG in theory, stupid in practice.

Well, flawed maybe. The only one I'd write off as totally irredeemable regardless of the flower's influence would be Three for obvious reasons. I'd consider both One and Two as good and motivated by the well being of their subjects, and Four could reasonably be considered "good" with the pointed exception of pic related. It's been awhile so I can't remember if Five did anything BAD bad, as far as I can remember she was just in perpetual "Fuck bitches get money" mode.

Obviously the whole point of the story was that they'd inevitably be corrupted, but the world at large was made better after they deposed the lords of the lands (Or at least it was immediately afterwards).

But like I said, it's been awhile so my memory might be shoddy.

You could have just ended that at the word "Protestant"

>The players meet a friendly priest early in the campaign
>Old, kind, generous, players come to trust him
>There's a murder of father brown
>Your friendly priest gets promoted
>He's shocked but humble swearing to fill father browns shoes as best he can
>A month later the archbishop goes missing
>Through a surprise election your friend gets given the hat
>He's as shocked as you he'd never ever thought he'd become an archbishop
>Truly these are traumatic times we live in, but he'll do his best to guide the church towards peace
>Each time the players go to see him he's very busy but always makes time for them
>Offers them all the help the church can muster and advice
>Suddenly the pope...

etc etc

During the course of their adventures, the party earns the very obvious favor of a chaotic evil god, causing the LG church to declare them heretics and try to hunt them

My brain immediately translated this into "Accidentally gained demonic favor while on a drunken bender".
Can't give up the mark and apologise to the church or their new drinking buddy will get pissed. Can't tell new drinking buddy to tone it down without possibly ending up as a sacrifice, or worse, a square.

I can't find that into my setting, but that's actually pretty solid all around.

This.

The institution can be LG, but have secretive NE or LE members who seek to corrupt it or line their own pockets.

Basically someone like judge Frolo from hunchback or something

In the book he was apparently a good guy until driven mad with lust. Obviously in a disney movie for kids, you can't have that shit though, so he was a bad guy from the start

Are you fucking retarded?

He could be a church member that embezzels

>their gospel is about having to follow the holy scripture as exact as humanly possible
>a lot of the methods and things in the scripture seem arbitrary and downright evil
>like having to pat the tenth to keep the glorious and quite frankly pompus temples and chruces up
>or that passage of having to report all children who are born with certain characteristics like hair colour, moles or something along those lines
>those children are gathered by the chruch and never seen again
>church employs inquisitors who are ruthless
>never protray them as comically evil, just very much believing in their faith
>bonus points for having somke appear wary and saddened by their work

Players will go and try to bring that religion down. The more they succeed the shittier everything gets, people going insane, reports of demons popping up. Be sure to be slow and subtle about it.

Turns out that the church was the only thing standing between the world and a demon infested shithole. Temples and Chruces are absolutely required to be pompus to channel their gods powers, children who have too many moles are literally touched by demons before birth and will act as portals for them.

Make it corrupt, like Zakarum was corrupted by Mephisto in Diablo series

>How do you make a LG church the antagonists of a story without resorting to fedora tier edginess
one of the very few good ideas bioware had introduced in dragon age prior to going full retard was the conflict between mages and the chantry
which was a similar dilemma to the psyker question in wh40k but without the grimderp edge

You are correct, really. A big point of the Intoners is that they were ultimately puppets, based off the original. And while they all had their (fatal) flaws, they were still good people until the flower twisted them into monsters.

I always loved the idea of Zero ending up in hell somewhere and her punishment having to be to fix and live with her sisters/children

I wonder how modern religions would react to a DoR,
Specifically the various different sects.

Anyone got an ideas?

Why are you so keen on classifying an entire organisation as inherently LG?

> lawful good
>antagonists

Wait so why are they the antagonist again?

If the players are all chaotic and/or evil then you've already got it come across as a try hard.

If the players are also lawful good then why are they in conflict with the Church to begin with?

>Tired old rehashed conflict between Magica de Spells and NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION
>A good idea
>Not grimderp
Are we talking about the same Dragon Age?

>Not grimderp
>Are we talking about the same Dragon Age?
compared to wh40k DA is pretty nice and fluffy

Dogma of the church is agains PCs.

The protaganists have been framed by some evil force who managed to plant large amounts of evidence against them. Perhaps they framed them for the murder of a pious king, defilment of a temple, a plague ravaging the land, maybe releasing some Demon or other horrible creature. So now the church is trying to bring them to justice/stop the protagnists percieved reign of terror.

Elaborating: According to the church, magic is evil. Most magic is indeed either evil, devoted to other deities, or both. So priests declared all arcane magic to be evil. If you have a wizard, he's now a heretic.
Serving other gods is blasphemy. If you have a cleric of a different god, you're now "evil" for them. May be due to a holy war going on in a region.
Stealing is a sin, murder too. Sanctioned hitmen (who may commit murder without sinning for they only kill sinners) go after criminals. If you have a rogue or assassin who actually killed a member of a "good" race or stolen someone decent's possessions, they're after him.
Your party have been framed and/or slandered. Simple as that.

It could be that there's a holy war over the setting's main conflict. The Church wants to open the doors to Heaven, so that - as it was in the beginning - the worlds of flesh and spirit will become one.

The PCs are pretty sure that would actually unleash the apocalypse. No-one is sure how it'd pan out, but the PCs are the faction going "Man, I wouldn't do that shit if I were you."

>Mozgus
>LG

*tips

have the pc's declared heretics by cardinal trying to cover up there less than good actions maybe the cardinal is making a power play and the pc's uncover it or maybe the pc''s discover said cardinal is actually the pawn in some devils scheme to destabilize the church maybe both the cardinal could even ascend to be the head of the church after he has the former head killed and the pc's are too late to stop them.

EVERY MAN WILL BE FREE TO FIGHT HIS OWN WARS!

I might remember this wrong but wasn't this guy one of the Undead Flesh?

The PCs are evil assholes who deserve the holy can of whoop-ass that's coming their way. So basically the webcomic Darken.