/HHG/ Horus Heresy General

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how did you find the 8e version? did it feel right? was it balanced?

Depends on his gear and everything. If he's rocking a shield/gauntlet combo there are different options than if he's got a spear.
Also, a noticiable cyber-familiar is always nice.

He's got a Paragon Spear and shield on him, so from there he's got a few choices, I guess.

>Paragon Spear and shield
>Paragon Spear AND shield
Disgusting.

Just because it's allowed by RAW does not mean it's okay to field, friend.

Cheese.

Have anything killed him?

20 Tactical Marines double tapping, Mortarion whacking him, 10 Plasmas tapping him, and a Typhon picking him out.

Most people have encouraged me to field him with that loadout. I know he's strong so I don't play him often and instead use a twin Solerite Talon variant I have of him.

I play either and play fluffy. I like an axe and shield combo because I think it looks cool...and made the model before I realized how broken the combo is.

All those units were in different games, mind you, not the same.

FW has confirmed multiple times that it is intentional as a loadout choice, that's why you don't get the spear bonuses with shields.

Good ol' Morty

As long as people are ok with you fielding the monster Shield Captain, I guess it's fine.

>and made the model before I realized how broken the combo is.
Ah, I understand.

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Vastly less powerful than people think. The rerolls are a bitch but he is approaching the realm of primarchs in terms of cost with significantly less damage potential and no real army buffs (at least mechanicum could bring lots of cyber-occularis and a djinn-skein to support their army by the time they cost 300 points for an archmagos). As for the claims of him being able to kill primarchs, perhaps that is true for the weaker ones but his damage output is so colossally shitty it would take him 6 full turns (as in he charges, fights an assault phase, opponent's turn happens, and they fight an assault phase) to kill Fulgrim if we ignore IWND. If we include IWND it will take him an absolutely retarded 8 full turns (16 assault phases) for him to drop Fulgrim with Fulgrim killing him earlier in the same assault due to higher initiative (this assumes laer blade). Even if They start the game in a challenge in the middle of the table statistically speaking Fulgrim will still be alive by the time the game ends. That assumes digital lasers on the tribune if not than it would probably take like 3 more assault phases to kill Fulgrim.

Against Vulkan his lack of lethality becomes far more apparent where it will take him 54 assault phases (or 27 turns) to kill Vulkan.
>6 attacks
>3 hit
>1 wounds
>.333 Failed saves
>Another .333 on Vulkan's player's assault phase
>Vulkan has a 55.5% chance of getting a wound back at the end of his assault phase
This means that the tribune is only doing on average 0.111 wounds per full turn.

The reason Scoria is scary to primarchs is because of his lethality by denying IWND and FnP while doing D3 wounds per hit automatically (even then I feel like fighty primarchs should be able to stomp his teeth in since he is only T 5 with 4 wounds with a regular 3++ but that's beside the point). This guy shouldn't be scary so much as annoying because he can sit there all fucking day.

Yeah, but it looks shitty.

>T 5 with 4 wounds with a regular 3++
T6 from Machinator, 5W from fancy Abeyant and Feel No Pain from being a Dominus. Still, I see your point, and Scoria has the same problem as the Tribune. Mechanicum has much more efficient ways to down Primarchs than making their own deathstar and running them at each other, and gravidons, Haywire and artillery have a hell of a lot more uses than a 700pt cyberblob.

I personally like shield and spear combos aesthetically. As pointless as it is I gave my praetor a pair of champions as bodyguards armed with Phoenix Spears and boarding shields.

Fan made, but just fine. Nothing over powerful. Against a 40k army, and just like back in 7th, it performed very meh. Everyone else had deeps trikes everywhere. I fought against chaos and death watch. Chaos is absurdly good, my 15 tac squads were being cut through like butter but my praetor and centurion held out well enough. Honestly for fanmade it's perfect.

>T6 from Machinator, 5W from fancy Abeyant and Feel No Pain from being a Dominus.
Is the machinator not included in his profile? Draykavac has his included in his profile and generally stuff that modifies toughness or something in a special character is already included like a captain on a bike special character being toughness 5 in his entry instead of toughness 4.

Not that it matters to me nobody in my group runs Scoria.

Boarding shields are pretty decent on characters, since they deny the enemy charge bonuses, tip top against WE.

I imagine the solarite gauntlet has a higher damage output, even if you strike last, you should survive with the re-rollable 3++.

If it were a spear, sure, but it's a big fucking halberd.
Plus it looks awkward as shit next to all the other custodes wielding it two-handed.

when playing power lvl you get groups of infantry instead of piecemealing it out. You also get the squad upgrades for free (unless otherwise noted). if you want to buy individual infantry use the pts from elsewhere in the document

Solarite gauntlet helps a lot making it so it "only" takes 8 rounds or 4 turns to slay Fulgrim on average while even with fireblade Fulgrim takes 11 rounds to drop him. However the real issue is that you are making a combat beatstick in a game where combat beatsticks have largely become redundant. Maybe your dude can defeat Fulgrim, but in order to do that you need to spend nearly the entire game in combat with him and spend 270 points on an HQ who does nothing to buff your army. If I have Fulgrim and you have a tribune and they both spend the last 4 turns in a challenge I consider that a win. For net 110 points I get army wide +2 to combat resolution, and the ability to reroll reserves (in addition to picking the warlord trait which I am ignoring since the Tribune can too) which I consider a good deal.

Also Horus can still beat the tribune thanks to disabling strike. Honestly the only primarchs the tribune can actually kill in a reasonable timeframe are probably
>Alpharius
>Corax (who has hit and run)
>Curze (who has hit and run)
>Lorgar untransfigured (who takes stock Lorgar?)
>Guilliman
>Angron

Dorn is only wounded on a 3+, Fulgrim has a 3+ Invul, Horus has a 3+ and disabling strike, Vulkan heals too fast, Mortarion heals too fast, and Ferrus has a 3+ invul

You are talking about fielding a pseudo primarch against primarchs, which is never efficient. The only time you should try to fight other primarchs with your primarch is when they are combat monsters since they will lose out more than you (eg. if Angron and Fulgrim duel Fulgrim's player is making his points back simply by tying up Angron but also benefits from Fulgrim's sire of the legion and other rules). So I guess send your super tribune against Angron, anyone else would probably be able to evade or provides enough buffs to their armies that being tied up by a 270 point model is a moot point.

> Angron

It makes me sad that Angron is so far down the pecking order for Primarch battles. I thought that the top tier was always recognized Angron, Sanguinius and Horus.
5W/3+ manlet is not what comes to mind, and for Russ to do exactly the same job but infinitely better sucks.

Yeah Angron really should be more survivable. Just +1 wound would help a lot. The real tragedy is how crappy his killing power is
>Str 8 attacks
>7 attacks on the charge
Fulgrim is likely getting 9 attacks (5 base, +3 for initiative difference, +1 for charge) on the charge if he can get an initiative 5 character to accept his challenge (so an unfortunate Praetor or champion). Angron really should have rage and rampage or some other combination to boost his ability to rip apart mooks, perhaps successful hit rolls of 6 generate extra attacks.

Let's help him out folks:

> W6
> Sire of the World Eaters: Characters within 12" gain Rampage
> Every time Angron loses a Wound, roll a dice. On a 4+ he gains a +1 increase to his FNP rolls for the rest of the game, to a maximum of 3+
> Armour of Mars- Confers a 2+ save against shooting, 3+ in combat. Every time he passes a save, Angron can resolve an immediate attack against the model that struck him.
> Split up his weapons into 2 profiles:
> Gorechild, as listed
> Gorefather: S+2, AP2, Armourbane, Reaping Blow, Unwieldy

Not suggesting that all of these are necessary, but I think taking 2-3 is justified.

If talking about fixing Primarch. Fulgrim should be WS 9 or 10(9 sounds more reasonable) and Blade of Laer should be buffed because daemon sword that's s user ap2 rending two handed is pretty weak.

It's been stated that Angron's stats represent him at his weakest moment when the nails were killing him. We'll get Daemon Angron stats eventually.

A lot of these focus on defensive capabilities, which while the problem with him being able to defeat primarchs isn't the core problem. The core problem is that for the RIP AND TEAR primarch he really isn't that great at ripping and tearing. What I would do
>6 wounds
>Keep Red Sands as is
>Sire of the World Eaters gives Angron and everyone within 12" stubborn and furious charge
>Armour of Mars stays as is
>Gorecild and Gorefather are kept as is
>Butcher's Nails gives Angron Rampage and Rage

I feel like Angron's legion shouldn't get Rampage since they focused on massed assaults and thus shouldn't generally be outnumbered against other marines. On the other hand giving Angron Rage and Rampage directly instead of +1 attack per kill means that on the charge Angron will be throwing out 9-11 Str 9 AP 2 attacks on the charge if outnumbered. Seems fitting for Angron to be all about charging headlong into the enemy with no heavy bodyguard support, hacking apart everything in his path, and moving onto the next unit.

His cost should probably be increased somewhat for being better offensively, defensively, and arguably in ability to support his army, no sure how much but spitballing 20-50 points more depending on if and how badly you think Angron is currently overcosted.

Second this, especially the blade of Laers. At least he's pretty cheap

WS 8 is fine the real issue is how it has become devalued because everyone has to have a high WS now (case and point Leman Russ who is WS 9 for some retarded reason). Fulgrim is one of the best primarchs, he can kill characters and basic marines very efficiently, he buffs his army a lot, and most importantly he is cheap. Even in primarch v. primarch fights he can beat most because he gets a fuckload of attacks. The only primarchs that I think can take him (barring psychic powers) are Horus, Ferrus, Perturabo, and Russ which I am mostly fine with. I agree the laer blade should be better primarily so that it makes sense that he would abandon fireblade in favour of it.

Seriously though, fuck Leman Russ, fuck his WS 9, and fuck his gay armour of you can't hit me.

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Seriously though who looked at Russ' rules and thought "this seems fine."
>Armour causes enemies to have -1 and later -2 to hit him
>Sword has asinine rules to give Russ' enemy D3 extra wounds
>WS 9
>6 Attacks
>Initiative 7
Its like he was made from the ground up just to defeat literally any character that came out before or will come out after. He will probably be able to kill the emperor.

Still waiting for FaQ that will fix Inferno.

Well, we got a big FAQ when we went from 6e to 7e, so maybe we get another one when we go from 7e to 8... Oh...

>He will probably be able to kill the emperor
Well, Russ is the Emperor's executioner after all ;^)

After all his failures now it's make sens.

I still have no idea why he can ghost teleport, it was never explain in the background.

I thought he was described as a sneaky primarch. That's how he got into the Palace and saw the Webway n shit.

I never thought of him as sneaky, that's more of Corax, Curze and Alpharius trait.

I thought it was latent psychic powers.

He was spooky, scary ghost.

I like how one of the primarchs is literally the grim reaper.

Wow, FW Deathshroud Terminators are cheaper than GW ones.
What the fuck happened?

Russ being a killing machine is fine, but the -2 to hit shit is just the most obnoxious and laziest thing FW has ever made. It's broken as hell -
you can't hit the guy with anything with WS4 or less - and not even fluffy, I was expecting something related with the "Emprah's executioner" thing.

Nah even his sword is fucking insane since it generates free wounds akin to Scoria instead of something more reasonable like free hits. WS 9 is also retarded since Russ was never THAT good, he was up there but he wasn't well ahead of Horus and Fulgrim.

GW is testing just how far it can go I imagine.

GW happend.

>Vastly less powerful than people think.
Offensively he's fine, but a 10-man plasmagun squad (or was it meltagun?) has a 6% chance of taking him down in a turn, compared to nearly 50% for a typical primarch. He's basically invincible.

My head hurts.

And FW even looks better.

He really isn't. He lacks the potential mobility of praetors or the sheer killing power of primarchs the only thing he has going for him is a rerollable invul and eternal warrior.

I want Dorn to be able to shoot and charge.
That is all.

>He lacks the potential mobility of praetors or the sheer killing power of primarchs
What does that have to do with being invincible?

WS9 is not THAT retarded since it encompasses both Russ' martial skills and mind-blowing savagery. Fulgrim is faster, Horus is stronger, both can be "better" than Russ in their own way, WS is not the only indicator of power level.

The Sever Life rule is very powerful but at least it requires a pseudo-Toughness test and authorizes invulnerable saves. Balenight's stats are not very impressive by themselves, the special rule would not be an auto-win button if Russ wasn't that hard to kill because of the exo-bullshit armor. Give him a mundane AP2 weapon instead of Balenight and he will still easily butcher any primarch.

But they're even better than Deathshroud, because they're also Grave Wardens.

>they're also Grave Wardens

But they're not. They're just cataphractii Deathshrouds. Which begs the question, why couldn't they be modeled in tartaros instead? I always thought it was to make use of the same DG terminator box, but since they're their own kit, there's no reason they couldn't have just been done in tartaros.

I assume he was responding to "offensively he's fine." I suppose you can get more offensive power out of a praetor for fewer points. It's a matter of finding a use for a remarkably unkillable unit - if you can find one, then the Tribune is amazing. But you'll be counting on other units to do the actual killing.

Sure, 6 mastercrafted S10 AP1 attacks are nothing to worry about... Only Magnus with Iron Arm and Warp Speed can dish out more damage.

Seriously, a tribune and 5 Hetaeron with shields and paragon blades/solerite gauntlets can butcher Horus and a full retinue of Justaerin in 3 rounds of combat with only a ridiculous amount of casualties. They are insane once they reach melee, just don't fuck up your deployment/deep-strike.

>But they're not.
I mean visually. They've got the shoulder stacks.

Have you guys gotten good use out of Terminators? I was the guy asking about a White Scars list in the last thread, and I have the BoP Tartaros dudes and don't mind buying a Land Raider Mk IIb for them. Under the Chogorian Brotherhood RoW they'd be coming in from Outflank. It's certainly cheaper for me than if I buy 450 points worth of other stuff.

>I mean visually.

That, sure. I wouldn't mind having all my DG in cataphractii, but alas, I already have FW grave wardens. I just hope those upcoming DG terminators aren't as terrible as the deathshrouds in terms of customization. Could mix them with my BaC cataphractii, if possible.

Why some Primarchs have 5++ when random Praetors(can) and all named ones have 4++.

>Fulgrim is faster
Barely and due to Russ' high initiative it doesn't even provide a real advantage it just levels the playing field a bit so Russ and Fulgrim are tied for attacks.

>The Sever Life rule is very powerful but at least it requires a pseudo-Toughness test
On 2d6 so even primarchs are statistically likely to fail it. If it was on 1d6 I wouldn't mind as much but at this point they might as well just make it automatic and cut down on some rolling.

> Balenight's stats are not very impressive by themselves, the special rule would not be an auto-win button if Russ wasn't that hard to kill because of the exo-bullshit armor.
He's still hitting other primarchs on a 3+ the only one who would be able to stand a chance would be psyker primarchs and Horus, even CC monsters like Fulgrim would still get their shit stomped.

>What does that have to do with being invincible?
Being invincible is a useless ability. Primarchs are already tough enough that any increase in toughness beyond that is redundant. Your tribune won't be killing primarchs, he will get into a pointless slapfight with them for the rest of the game.

>Seriously, a tribune and 5 Hetaeron with shields and paragon blades/solerite gauntlets can butcher Horus and a full retinue of Justaerin in 3 rounds of combat
>3 rounds
Which is like a quarter of a game fighting the same unit. All for a unit that costs 745 points.
>They are insane once they reach melee
Good luck getting into melee enough times to make your points back. You have to kill like 25 terminators or 4 tac blobs to make your points back. After you kill your first unit the rest of the army will move away from you and rape the rest of your army.

Lets be honest, Magnus and Russ are broken as hell.
Magnus is powerfull psyker as he shoud be but D novas are too much.
And Russe's stats are just some joke.

No thats the upcoming DG nurgle termis.

Which ones have shitty 5++?

Corax and Fulgrim at range.

What are some nessecary units for a competitive list?

Are Lernaean with 2 conversion beamer worth it?

>Being invincible is a useless ability.
You can tie up a more expensive unit for the whole game.

Transports, in most cases. Veterans are very points efficient. Neither are annoying to the other player though, the way Quad Mortars, Whirlwind Scorpius, and Medusas are.

15 ironfiring phospex quad guns.

Quads, Whirlwind, Medusa's, and vets in rhinos. Got it m8. It's a bit generic but I guess PotL will work.

Alpharius

My primarch isn't out yet though :(. It's a tourney so I doubt they'd let me substitute models.

Of course he is out silly.
HYDRA DOMINATUS

Omegon?

Dr Alpharius? I'm Omegon.

Conversion beamers are cool as fuck, just do it. I wish it wasn't such an ass pain to model it though. Lernean could be so cool if you weren't forced into cataphractii/power axes

You could probably get the same effect for half the price using techmarines.

Who the hell throws competitive tournaments for 30k?

A place in Michigan next month set at 2250 points

Why FW release rules without model?
Warlord still haven't got half of his weapons.
Still no Dorn and Alpharius.
Still no new units from Inferno.

Just take Custodes. And look around for narrative events .

I'm struggling to make a thousand sons look at that doesn't look like complete cheese on paper. I don't plan on using Mind Wrath (the D strength rule) for Magnus or spaming sekhmets but every list I make leaves me feeling massively guilty.

Should I just accept that thousand sons are a top legion and just play as i want taking the self imposed limitations into account?

Welcome to how FW operates newfag.

>Still no new units from Inferno.

The fuck are you talking about? It's been 1kSon and Talons releases out the ass for the past couple of months.

>Still no new units from Inferno
We have magnus, ahriman, Amon, Russ, Russ' wolves, sekhmets, the osiron dread, the khenetai, Geigor and the varagyr are being finished off.

We're missing the ammitara, hvarl, the deathsworn and the two priest's of fenris.

I fucking hate custodes and I've been in several narrative events, usually the only traitor legion at them to boot.