Why is it that the most powerful of Magocratic nations are predominantly human?

I have to wonder what they use for currency. Surely not gold.

...Dalaran is one of the seven human kingdoms, you door knob.

>no
Read some lore, humans learnt everything they know about magic from elves, Kirin Tor's council mainly consists of elves (and a couple of dragons)
Dalaran is 100% elven city.

>Humans don't bother to travel to Silvermoon.

Says who? Obviously they don't go there much now because it's Horde-controlled, but there's no reason to assume they didn't go there before. Humans learned magic in the first place from elves, Dalaran was founded with their help.

I don't remember Stromgarde having a literal barbarian as king by the time of the Second War.

There's only ever been two known elves to have a seat on the ruling council. Surely there were more, but none are named.

Where are new arrivals looking to study supposed to live? Are you expected to bring your own flying island when you go to train there? Or do they have student dorms?

I don't deny that humans wouldn't travel to Silvermoon, it's just evidently not as common as the opposite, even before the Third War.

By the time Dalaran was at its zenith, I doubt humans would care to learn from the elves en masse.

The Kirin Tor was, for all intents and purposes, the single greatest bastion of magic on the planet.

The only major fantast-setting where elves are blatantly better than humans regarding magic would be Warhammer.

And even then there are exceptions *cough* Nagash. And then the magical toads outstrip everyone else.

I'd say Elder Scrolls, but humans can match the elves rather well. The greatest mage that didn't cheat by becoming a god or using CHIM was a Nord.

Probably, but it's not a great comparison because Dalaran had a high elf element from the outset and has always been open and multi-racial, while Silvermoon is a city by elves, for elves.

It is a bit weird. While it's easier to excuse a handful of the greatest mages being humans due to how variable they can be, there really shouldn't be enough high tier human mages to outnumber the presence of any elves.

Only reason the high elves were the greatest mages was their connection to the Sunwell.

Humans are at least as great as the elves when it comes to magic, Sunwell or not.

There's also that lore bullshit describing the differences between human magic and elven magic.

>Elves are better at more precise things
>Humans are better at blowing shit up

Elves really had to learn to control their magic due to their encounter with the Legion. Humans, on the other hand, are oblivious to such encounters and decided that twenty mages casting fire storm wouldn't do too much damage. Until they wipe out a troll army.

Humans are more 'raw', whilst the elves are 'controlled'. Elves learn to expand their magic, Humans learn to compress it.

Relevant
>'When the quel'dorei trained the first batch of one hundred humans in the most rudimentary of arcana, they were surprised to find the young race had great natural affinity. The sheer, raw power they could summon up even surpassed what high elven casters were capable of mustering, but they lacked control. This trait became what forever characterized the typical style and approach of human mages. Most human mages prefer using fire and arcane spells, as they allow for the caster to dish out salvos of raging energy, which become bigger, powerful and more varied streams as the mage gains experience. However, humans still find it difficult to concentrate and focus their attacks for more precise and subtle effects. For example, while a human mage might find incinerating a cadre of gnolls child's play, lighting the tip of a candle or precisely bombarding a target without harming those around the target may be difficult.'

Both humans and elves are equals in the field, they just approach magic through different means.

Dalaran probably teaches elves and humans separately then because of this.

Dalaran mages learned a lot from the Elves. While its a human city the Elf culture had a huge impact and it is unlikely it would become what it is now without this share of ideas. I do not think its a matter of Humans brothering to travel, and more about them wanting to share their own lands with human culture allowing them to live there. I doubt that they would want a "half human city" anywhere on Qutelthelas territory. Which is ironic, they joined the Horde later, and now share their lands with living corpses just because these ones dont want to kill them like the Scorge want.

Yet. Humans used to travel to Silvermoon, I think Arthas said something about the last time he visited it (except the time that he just raided the city).

And I think people just got everything wrong. Gameplay wise there is no difference because PC are always mary sues. But if you think only about culture then Elves are far better with magic than humans, they "live" magic. Even the most commoner elf would have some naturality with magic, the rangers for exemple had with wild magic. while most humans would never cast a spell on their entire lives, the only exception is Dalaran where magic becomes a part of their culture. Yet, nothing stops a talented humans to be as good as a talented elf on magic. And of course, just because you live on a elf city or even on Dalaran this dont mean that you can easily throw fireballs, pretty much like just because a person lives on Skyrim it dosent mean that he know how to fight well with a sword.

you could argue that the humans being short lived would strive for advancements in their field of study, while the elves (and dwarves when they can (or even care about) cast magic) tend to be sorta traditionalist, so a human magocracy would invent new methods, spells and stuff while the rest would just chill and prectice the shit they have

Industrial revolution metaphor, with elves representing tribe folks.

Most elves aren't mages

Humans canonically are *at least* as good as the elves when it comes to magic. Dalaran edged Quel'Thalas in the Arcane, it just did. That's kind of the point with the Kirin Tor.

The Eredar are also up there.

I feel like Forgotten Realms is an even better example. The elves had some highly magical civ centers like Myth Dranor, but Netheril and Thay, the two prime examples of "Magocracy", are distinctly human.

A reason for this could be that Elves perfer conservative and balanced government structures rather than promoting (arcane) might makes right, while humans are more likely to establish the power-and-influence feedback loop that is a Magocracy.

The most powerful wizards/magocracies in the Forgotten Realms are all human, though. Very few are multi-cultural.

>Shalidor
>Not Galerion
>Not Mannimarco

Shalidor was a powerful mage, indeed. But he was nowhere near close the powerlevel of the great elven mages, even removing Sotha Sil from the picture. You just don't hear about them because don't care enough to go outside their own reclusive societies and get famous

>Psijiic Order
>Thalmor
>Telvanni
> Altmer mirror logicians

All powerful mage factions, all populated only by elves

Also, don't forget the Aldmer basically conquered the whole world thanks to their Daedra-summoning powers

>Mannimarco
>Sotha Sil
Did user not exclude mages who 'cheated' ?

>But he was nowhere near close the powerlevel of the great elven mages
No. He was evidently up there with them. Arguably their equals. Few matched his knowledge, period. He was the Einstein of magic.
There's literally no way to define who is the 'strongest' Mage in the Elder Scrolls, but to say Shalidor isn't on the same tier is ludicrous.

>Psijiic Order
>all populated only by elves
The Psijiic Order trained and brought in other races.
Sotha Sil was part of this training before he left.

The most ridiculous feat of magic was produced by humans. They blew up a continent.

House Telvanni also had non-elves.

That's what I said, makign FR an example of the phenomenon that OP points out. I then offered a possible explanation.

>"even removing Sotha Sil"

Also, I was speaking about mortal Mannimarco, the King of Worms, not God Mannimarco, the Revenant's Moon.

Yokuda? This wasn't exactly magic. By that logic, the Thu'um is magic and Tongues are wizards.

A few of the dragon priests surpassed their elven teachers. One of them (forget the name) tore apart an entire country in his battle with Miraak.

Humans can become better than elves, just not as common.

Tonal Architecture is a kind of magic, yes. I'm not sure why you wouldn't think this. The Dwmer who utilized it were literally called 'Magesmiths'

Mannimarco before he reached godhood? Gee, Shalidor wins this.

Shalidor was a badass. He singlehandedly fucked with the Dwemer.

Most powerful/significant mages of Elder Scrolls:

>Divath Fyr, elf, Dunmer
>Neloth, elf, Dunmer
>Galerion, elf, Alt(d)mer
>Mortal!Mannimarco, elf, Alt(d)mer
>Orgnum, Immortal Mage-King of the Maomer, Maomer
>The Camoran Usurper, elf, Altmer or Bosmer

>Shalidor, human, Nord
>Azra Nightwielder, human, Redguard
>Miraak, human, Nord

Honorable mentions:
>Jagar Tharn, human, Imperial
>Mankar Camoran, elf, Altmer
>Kagrenac, elf, Dwemer
>Sotha Sil pre-godhood, elf, Dunmer

Ahzidal and Vahlok are on the level of Miraak.

I'd put Kagrenac up there with Galerion.

Also this. Vahlok was actually more powerful than Miraak. Ahzidal practically outplayed the elves at their own magic.

The greatest mage in the ES was a Breton. The Sage. Barely anything is known about him, other than that sketchy ass book.

I agree, I totally forgot about those two. Granted, I'm not so sure how they would compare to Miraak after he spent three eras trapped in Apocrypha

I do wonder what elven attack magic looks like as a result of that difference. A precise lance of magic?

*blocks your path*

come at me

It's clear Nagash is superior. He has the biggest hat

>The Kirin Tor was, for all intents and purposes, the single greatest bastion of magic on the planet.
The Council of Tirisfal was, and it only had a single Human member until fairly close to the time of the games.

The Council of Tirisfal was an amalgam of certain individuals from the Kirin Tor and Quel'Thalas, boasting various races, humans, elves, half elves & gnomes.

>and it only had a single Human member
I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, because this is blatantly wrong.

Pepe priests win in all categories

All the officers of an army come down with a case of aneurysm.

Because elves are lazy pieces of shit who take a hundred years to do anything meaningful.

>dragon priests surpassed their elven teachers
>Dragon Priest
>Elven Teachers
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Only one of them had elven teachers, which he ended up surpassing. Ahzidal. He learned from the Ayleids and Dwemer. Ended up slaughtering the frost elves.

>Yeah, except Dalaran is in all regards a superior nation of magic.
This is bait, right?

>"I don't agree with the truth"
>"it must be bait, how could it not be?"

The Kirin Tor is the single most powerful faction of wizards on Azeroth.
Yes, even when compared to the Magisters of Silvermoon. It's rather conclusive.

That's kind of the point.

The blood elves themselves adamantly want(wanted) their seats back in Dalaran.

it's more that human magocracies stand out more.

An Elven Magocracies don't look much different than non-magocracies, dwarven and orcs, even if led by mages will usually prefer a light touch on the magic with the society at large (in orcs case it's partially elitism of keeping magic away from the common rabble), gnomes are in the same boat as elves, and halfling mages don't really do much with their magic during peaceful times besides do stuff to help with farms.

Human Magocratic nations stand out more because they're generally more talented with magic and far more boisterous.

Elves are egotistical assholes but they keep to themselves.

are they necessarily more talented or just more more ready to show it off? I mean, look at the OP:

>Floating city
>Tall Spires
>huge vaulted ceilings made of glass and other elaborate architectural engineering feats

But impressive as that is, a lot of it seems like stuff you could do with just a handful of student mages and enough time. It's just that other societies don't see much a point in flaunting it that way, either because they flaunt it in different ways (elves shape the forests itself and dwarves can reshape the stone of the earth).

It's a case of massively different standards between cultures.

And you know what else about that floating city? Slap it with a big enough anti-magic field spell and you instead have a death trap for everyone on it and below it.

>Jaina
>most powerful human mage in azeroth
>taught by Kael, an elf from silvermoon

Flaunting magic is a thing with human wizards. Big time. Their humility is, well, rather thin. >Power and knowledge above wisdom and respect.

And yes, humans tend to be the better wizards than elves in most fictional works. Whether this is a case of HFY or not is up to you to decide.

Warhammer being a very notable exception.

>Jaina
Bitch
>most powerful human mage in azeroth
Most powerful human sorceress on Azeroth
>taught by Kael, an elf from silvermoon
Taught by Antonidas, a human from Dalaran

Thoras Trollbane was their Barbarian King, read WarCraft II
Dorms are mentioned duting Kel'Thuzad's short story, seeing how a few of his followers lived in the learning ground rooms, which means the poor or the low class students had to share tiny ass rooms with who the fuck knows who.

her power is arguably greater than khadgars, she was taught by kael originally before taking apprenticeship under antonidas, and shes not a bitch, her anger is justified.

>her power is arguably greater than khadgars
Yeah. No. Khadgar held off Gul'dan, who would've destroyed her.

>her anger is justified.
I bet you voted for Trump.

Elves suffer from this weird phenomenon where they are supposed to be "best" at magic...

yet, every time push comes to shove, elves conveniently forget how to use magic that could have helped in this situation and get handily beaten by protagonists or antagonists.

khadgar hasn't done anything outside of plot armour that she hasn't also done, in terms of raw power the two are very similar. she essentially has an orc for a brother, grew up in close proximity to the horde, and has seen their shit her entire life so yea its pretty obvious shes gonna have a short temper for their shit. Trump literally did nothing wrong

>"truth"
There is nothing that say that Dalaran has superior magic.

Jaina Trump wanted to kick the elves out of Dalaran
She probably wanted to build a wall around Quel'thalas too.

I wonder why the elves bothered to join the Kirin Tor then

They swept the fucking floor in terms of combat magic, add that Arthas went full Nanking on Silvermoon, and their numbers arent quite to challenge the seat of Magic.

Dalaran did far better than Quel'Thalas when Arthas became not!AnakinSkywalker

He also did it to Dalaran. Remember? He killed the ever loving shit out of all the mages there. It was an annoying gimmick map.

Elves are better mages than humans in general, but never use that advantage for no good reason and the numerical advantage of more mages doesn't help them either. Exceptions aside, this is what I'm gathering from these threads. Writers should make up their mind.

>Elves are innately magic, but that spark isn't enough in the long run.
>Humans outnumber the elves ten-to-one.
>They learn in decades what takes elves centuries.
>Humans treat magic as a pseudo-science, while the elves treat it as a pseudo-religion
>Humans are more ambitious, elves are too lofty

There are a lot of thematic reasons for humans being the better wizards.
Of course it varies from setting to setting, the above mainly representing D&D.

He didnt went full 731 on Dal, though, start of that mission Antonidas' man servant told him to evacuate witht the rest, that thry would defend Dal to the end, Anton stayed, we all know the ending, but as mission says, most civvies had ran to the hills unlike SMoon where they were fishes in a barrel

quel thalas literally has a wall

She would have built a better one. And made them pay for it.

Just make them also better builders than the dwarves and better warriors than the orcs, you can probably justify this too.

Dwarves seem to be the one exception when it comes to 'humanity fuck yeah'. They're always the best at what they do.

>better warriors than the orcs
This is too broad of a statement to make. Every race fights differently.

Heil those dubs. The only race I cant fucking see as warriors is Blood Elves, they are too fucking effette for this manly shit
t. King Ymiron

According to that in-game book most of the greatest wizards are human, not elves.

They're rather nimble on the field, though that doesn't mean much when against the ridiculous plate armor of Warcraft.

>muh faggy elf fags
>meanwhile in the actual lore

yea no blood elves and night elves are buff as fuck and make great warriors in the lore.

Is there any actual proof that humans make better wizards than elves in d&d

Lore or crunch?

Yes.

Elves at their peak(Cormanthyr) paled in comparison to humans at their peak(Netheril)
Ed Greenwood flat-out makes a point in his novels that humans are -at least- as talented as the elves.
Likewise, in Dragonlance humans dominate the field and are responsible for the Towers of High Sorcery.
Before 3e, elves couldn't even be proper magic-users. The good ol' days of race-class hybrids.
The humans of Mystara were the most powerful wizards in the D&D multiverse. Of any setting.
4th edition (sketchy as it is) cemented that humans reach higher peaks of power than even the Eladrin.

It's all rather evident.

both, preferably

seems to have answered it though.

Let me just add to that: Crunch-wise elves have always been the DEX race, with good senses and spell resistence and just some subraces occasionally having plus + INT, drow and moon elves come to mind. In the early editions and in chainmail they were stealth fighters that could use some magic, because they had mithril armor, which was elves-only, that allowed them to cast magic while wearing armor. Their hybrid-classes back then reflected that. Don't know if it's the confused writing or just cliches, or the fact that many elves have wizard as their favored class, but in DnD their thing has always been DEX more than INT.

>4th edition (sketchy as it is) cemented that humans reach higher peaks of power than even the Eladrin.

Where was that?

...

I think that's less 'Humans alone can reach the heights' and more 'Humans can get just as crazy as elves and better than most elves'. With 4e's general 'yes, you can become that awesome character' theme.

As an aside: Something that seems to be a VERY elven thing in depictions is that Elves are amazing at melding magic and mundane together. Swordmages, Mages of the Spiral Tower, Artificers making Airships etc.