/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Terribly. Don't do it.

Poorly

It wouldn't.

That's like asking if the Dresden Files would work. Or Fate/Stay Night.

It's shit-talk.

Supernatural stuff in the Dresden Files works pretty differently, but you could easily fit it into CofD by changing the stuff to fit the parallels. Harry, I believe, would be a Free Council Obrimos solitary. Not Adamantine Arrow like some people say. In the first book he describes magic as coming from life, humanity, which fits with Libertine views, and he doesn't exactly act all subservient and he bucks at the White Council (Diamond Precept).

It would suck. Do it anyway.

>Monday Meeting Notes

Damnit, Signs of Sorcery is still in "development."

Dave is a cruel bastard, and my faith is rapidly waning.

>Why do you think older vampires are migrating out east in 5th edition?
Inconnu fuckery, some desire to pretend to be Saulot and ask the Kuei Jin for wisdom.

I expect they'll be lots of wisdom, in the same sense that getting shanked gets you a blade.

It only got any new progress happening on it in months just recently. It is finally alive again but isn't nearly done. Dave just finally got his irl shit sorted. He was apparently homeless or something for a bit after a flood?

Eh, I wouldn't try to do Dresden Files in WoD. For one, mages are seriously threatened by Fey/Werewolves/Vampires so they play on much more even ground.

>not just stealing someone elses house with magic
It's like the komodo isn't even trying.

>He was apparently homeless or something for a bit after a flood?
He said it was a lot of stuff, including housing issues and being flooded. I believe there was also some illness involved? I also think there was a mention of somebody close to him passing away, but I'm not sure. Still any one of those things on their own would be awful, and he's had some sort of combination. Rough stuff. But I'm sure he's doing his best, and that when Signs of Sorcery does come out it'll be a great supplement. I also don't think it'll be too much longer, in the grand scheme of things.

In the CofD, Harry Dresden is definitely a low-Wisdom Obrimos Adamantine Arrow.

So sayeth the Komodo Lord, PBUH.

forum.theonyxpath.com/search?searchJSON={"keywords":"harry","author":["Dave Brookshaw"],"sort":{"relevance":"desc"},"view":"","exclude_type":["vBForum_PrivateMessage"]}&btnSubmit=&humanverify[input]=&humanverify[hash]=&humanverify[input]=&humanverify[hash]=

archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/harry/username/daveb/

They're only threatened by the Fae. The Red Court was a special case.

>They're only threatened by the Fae
Dresden himself flat out said that vampires are bad news for wizards, period, and that during the vampire war, wizards stayed indoors at night.
You are confusing Dresden, one of the top 100 wizards on the world and the prodigy of his generation, with the average wizard and hedge mage.

Being seriously threatened by True Fae would be understandable, and that's the closest parallel for Mab and Lea. It's also appropriate for a Mage to be seriously threatened by a werewolf in Gauru form. As for vampires, Harry was up against elders, primarily. Or at least very powerful ones. And he killed most of them, didn't he? Bianca, the Red King, that one, I forget her name, Arianna? The one he dueled. And he would have beaten the duke guy in the duel too, but the duke cheated.

And he did most of it all on his own. With only minimal assistance from other wizards, which would be very impressive by CofD standards. Remember that he smoked lesser vampires like it was nothing, to the point that one even fled from him in terror.

Nah, I don't care what Dave says here. It's just his opinion. Mine is that he would be Free Council.

Isn't Dresden some sort of ludicrous baby superwizard, though? Thanks to lineage and his uncles early training in violence?

Oh, you're including sorcerers and hedge magicians. Not exclusively wizards of the White Council.

Fair enough.

Isn't the main difference between a sorcerer and a wizard that voodoo/evocation is out of the former's reach?

They're bad news for the majority of magic-users, yes. White Council wizards? One on one. Ten on one, even? Not so much.

>And he killed most of them, didn't he?
Via a memetic kill ritual that was being used against him and created by the Red King.
And no, he didn't do it on his own, he had a small army of high powered wizards AND True Fae, including Odin himself and the second most powerful Fae lord in existence, fighting beside him.
Against Bianca, he didn't win, the ghosts he summoned did the work for him, and if the veil between worlds wasn't so thin, he would not have been able to summon those ghosts at all, and would have died like a bitch.
You need to be a wizard of considerable power before you are even reviewed for the White Council at all. Using them as the benchmark for wizards is like using Masters as the benchmark for Mage oops, you fags already do.
And being a student of the Leannsidhe.

He was always acknowledged as being really skilled and talented for his age, which I took to mean that he just advanced to a high level really quickly, since the "Masters" of Dresden Files outstrip him by miles and he admits to himself that his experience and education with magic is pretty lacking, and that he mostly gets by on raw talent. It only started getting into his lineage and shit later on, with him being a starchild or some shit. Probably something stupid and snowflakey that I won't like. The way I see it, he just got to Gnosis 4 and Adept level pretty soon after his "Awakening" and stayed there.

He killed Bianca on his own. That he used ghosts to do it doesn't change that. He killed that woman in a duel, on his own, and the Duke cheated him. He also fought the Red King, one on one. He also killed two White Court vampires in a duel. The latino kid didn't help him much. Stop being so angry.

And the White Council isn't just made up of Masters. The ones that don't cut are the ones that are much weaker. White Council wizards are essentially, by Harry's description, wizards that have a sense for magic. That it's an innate part of them and allows to do magic much, much better than the ones who do it "blind". He literally uses painting as a metaphor for magic, and says that people who don't have that sense are painting blind. What does that sound like?

>And being a student of the Leannsidhe.
Doesn't Harry say that Lea didn't actually do much for him, and that her "help" was something like Dumbo's magic feather, in that he already had the power he needed to face Justin, but didn't believe it?

>I don't care what Dave says here

Blasphemy! Scriledge! Heresy!

True Fae are relatively weak compared to Mab in terms of comparisons. The only wizard capable of taking her on would have been the Original Merlin, from the sounds of things.

As for the 'Red Court x White Council', wizards are individually more powerful than vampires, of any Court. T
he Reds went to a *lot* of effort to take them on. And most likely won't be able to pull it off again.

...

Mind you, he also got his ass kicked hard by 'A guy with an LMG' even with his shield and needed a mortal to even the odds.

Geez, this topic has been done to death on ComicVine.

In an even field, the White Council takes shit from no Vampire Court.

Mind you 'Guns' did a lot to even the odds with vampires as it gives any nobody the power to kill a wizard.

Anyone watch Midnight Texas.

It's a "crossover" magical splat show, and once again, a demonstration of mage supremacy.

A stupid wizard, yeah.

One of the plot devices in The Dresden Files to gimp wizards are the Rules of Magic (e.g, no killing humans with magix, no mind control, no necromancy, etc.).

dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Magic

Take those artificial limitations, and wizards would wipe the floor with anyone short of a lesser god.

He had no yantras or imbued items, so all he had was his base pool, maybe with a point of Willpower to put into Duration and Scale, and probably some Potency to add to his free ones.

After everything these threads have gone through, I believe anyone will gladly run to the defence of a fictional work with wizards *possibly* being equals and/or lesser to vampires fairies, etc.

The Red Court is constantly overwanked by the readers, anyhow. The only faction capable of reliably taking on the White Councul would be the Fey.

>And most likely won't be able to pull it off again.
Because they're all dead.

>Dresden
And a vampire horde took down heavy hitter mages. Those were some shit fights. Not to mention Bianca actually had Dresden dead to rites. He got ambushed and mind screwed. B only allowed him back up in an attempt to use him as a pawn. Using his chick as leverage and a hostage. But Dresden went full phoenix and kicked off the war early.

>He got ambushed and mind screwed
Also literally screwed. They raped him.

No, in the Dresden Files even a skilled wizard could die like a bitch to a gun. He's said that Karen Murphy is a more dangerous threat than a lot of wizards for a good reason.

Depends on how you look at it. Wards would trump guns.

And water trumps magic/mages can't use tech worth a damn.

I think "stupid wizard" in this sense means a wizard that goes out without a reliable way to defend himself.

The Red Court had access to Outsiders and also had their own users of magic.

It wasn't an even match on both ends.

Uh huh...

Have we really gone from arguing about wizards vs vampires in one setting to wizards vs vampires in another?

That's a core part of the setting, that running water messed up magic.

Mhmm

Sooner or later you're going to tell me Harry has a pet skull.

Could you get phone reception in the Shadow if you were near an open Iris, wether natural or 'man made'? Or does it just not transfer into Shadow like physical matter does?

Isn't running water just because it's a barricade/boundary/threshold of a different sort?

It makes it harder to gather the energy, because it scatters it. That's why Nicodemus had Harry under a little waterfall to completely stop him from casting. But water doesn't always mean no magic. Even on a boat going over a lake, Harry and Molly could still cast. It was just harder.

>He killed Bianca on his own. That he used ghosts to do it doesn't change that
He also freely admitted that if Bianca hadn't made the veil between worlds weaker, he wouldn't have been able to summon the ghosts at all. That is not an advertisement of personal power.
>Duke
In a contest of wills, he would have beaten the Duke square.
>fought the Red King
Dude, no he fucking didn't, read Changes again, please. He survived being in the Red King's presence, Morgan was the one who almost killed the Red King.
>latino kid didn't help
Lies in your favor are still lies.
If that is the case, then why did the current Merlin flat out say that were it not for the White Council's agreement with the Winter Court, the Council would have been wiped by the vampires?

Yeah, throwing a spell into a church would also be very hard. It's why guns are so useful, they ignore all the metaphysical rules in favour of just the physical.

The Senior Council held off the -entire- Red Court in that one encounter. You don't become the Merlin by collecting bottle caps.

I'm inclined to believe that wizards > vampires

Harry summoned the ghosts, empowered and directed them, and did it all while in a standoff with vampires and armed mortals. Pretty powerful. Morgan was dead by Changes. Harry, on the other hands, jammed his fingers into the eyes of the Red King and burned them out of his skull. And the latino kid got hurt in the duel early on, like a debilitating wound ad left Harry to pick up the slack. What did he do, since you seem to know better?

The White Council was also in a bad place for the war, since they weren't prepared while the Red Court had been gearing for it for a while. I don't recall the Merlin saying that the White Council would have been wiped (what book?) but circumstances are a thing, and so are numbers.

That and tech advantages. The Red Court had major advantages in information gathering and information sharing. The more tech advances, the more the wizard disadvantage of 'Can't use advanced tech' kicks in.

>sexism
Damsel in distress is a harmful trope, so he needs to learn to let bitches die.

I cannot believe I didn't know I could mine 4plebs this way. I've been on Veeky Forums how long? Fucking hell. Thanks, user.

He has 2 now, one is his daughter.
>empowered and directed them
He did not, he simply let them loose and they revenged themselves upon the vampires who slew them. He also summoned them while alone in a basement, not during the firefight.
>Morgan was dead by Changes
Does not negate that he was the one who damn near took the Red Kings head off.
>What did he do
Took on the other vampire while Harry crippled the other, then needed to be backed up.
>what book?
Changes, or the book before that. I have them in a stack on my kitchen table.

Yeah, wizards are pretty screwed in that regard, which is why securing routes through the Nevernever was critical for them.

The wizard disadvantage really feels like some min-maxer went 'Eh, what's the chance the game will go on long enough for this to do anything?'

>Seven Laws of Magic
>Wizards cannot use any post-industrial revolution technology

Jim Butcher seriously gimped wizards in the Dresden Files, well beyond paradox in CofD, and they still kick ass.

Without these plot device limitations, the Dresden Files would be one book consisting of introducing Harry following by a victory celebration.

>he needs to learn to let bitches die.

If they act like a bitch, he should slap them like a bitch. it would save a whole lot of trouble later on.

The laws of magic is what kills my interest in Dresden. Some of them make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

They have problems with tech from beyond WW2.
Why? They make sense in a meta, that magic is dangerous and must be controlled since literally anyone can do it. The series does talk about the times of chaos when the laws weren't cleaved to.

>They have problems with tech from beyond WW2.

A lot of it seems to be 'Electronics +'

Basically.
Anything that has computer tech in it fizzles.

Surprised nobody went further on this. Wizards beat vampires in violent confrontations. Big time.

That whole scene was fucking amazing. Langtry was a beast.

>He did not, he simply let them loose and they revenged themselves upon the vampires who slew them. He also summoned them while alone in a basement, not during the firefight.

>pnovels.com/grave-peril/chapter-thirty-eight-131870.html

Nearly all of your claims are outright false or disingenuous misrepresentations. Follow the link and read it yourself. Harry summons the ghosts while nearly totally weakened and claims that only MAYBE he wouldn't have been able to do it in other circumstances. He does it in the middle of the fight, not down in the basement and he feeds the ghosts his power. You seem like you really want vampires to be considered just as strong as wizards, when it isn't the case. Dangerous, sure. On individual comparisons, entirely possible. But on the whole? No. We're done, because I don't trust you to argue in good faith. Come back with explicit sources, your word is garbage.

They're only considered stupid because of how anal the White Council is about them. They do make sense on paper. Don't kill, don't rob people of their will, don't mess with brains, don't mess with time, don't turn people into other things, no necromancy. Understandable stuff, all told. Execution being the default mode of punishment with only the passing consideration of circumstances? Therein lies the rub.

Wizards less numerous though. Especially if you're talking about elites like the Council.

Which just makes them all the more impressive.

Breaking the laws of magic makes you go crazy actually. Kill some people with magic and your psyche will warp so murder seems like a good first option, wjile if you abuse mind control eventually you'll just solve all your social problems with mind control.

Isn't it the other way around? That you need to believe in what you're doing to do it, so if you kill with magic, you're already a killer at heart.

Would you rather be a mage from Awakening or Ascension?

Awakening. Ascension is too hard core with the Paradox. It sucks.

Awakening is also far more appealing.

Awakening. Especially 2e. I wouldn't have to worry about Paradox raping me out of reality just for casting a spell that actually looks like a spell.

But in a widespread war, not necessarily the favorites to win.

As far as impressive individuals go, I'd say the surviving Black Court vampires are at the top of the list. Everyone conspired against them, all their secret weaknesses became public knowledge, and still they go on.

Vampires aren't impressive because they're vampires.

Go away, you.

>Vampires aren't impressive because they're vampires.

Couldn't you say 'Wizards aren't impressive because their Wizards' just as much?'. Anyway, the Dresden Files seems to have the most powerful thing of all being 'Being smart'. Mortals can beat wizards, wizards can beat vampires, vampires can beat wizards. It's all about playing smart.

No. Because vampires are vampires, they're automatically trash.

Shoo.

Fuck you false flagging changeling faggot. stop pushing your sick ptsd furry shit on the board

Impressive in the sense that it's impressive how hard it is to totally eradicate cockroaches, I suppose.

the same bloodlines where you are dominated by the prince to follow the plot? Sure sounds like like freedom

I mean you can just break the rules, lots of wizards do, they are mostly bad ones though.

I think there is even that staff which one of the white concil has that eats the mental sin / damage from killing people as well.

Seers > Technocracy > Diamond > Free Council > VA/Ether > Shitty Traditions

I wouldn't want to be a Seer, in all honesty. They dick each other over all the time. Like a lot. If you wanted luxury, magic can easily afford you that in a bunch of ways (so long as you don't have too many scruples), or you can just hook up with a powerful and wealthy group in the Consilium.

Better to be on the winning side though.
If Seers were no better than, and no more risky than the Pentacle, then nobody would join them.
Well... Assuming full knowledge of options.

Verbena
Technocracy
Free Council
Seer
Diamond
VA
Other Traditions

Define "winning".

Sorry, "on the side that won".
Not to diminish the completeness of the victory the Exarchs achieved.

It was a victory, in the sense that they got what they wanted, but I don't know if could be called complete. People still Awaken. Mages still Ascend (if very rarely). For sure, the deck is stacked in favor of the Seers for a lot of reasons, but it's not like they're in a total position of power and the Pentacle is hounded and hunted in every city.