Dark Vengeance

I don't get it, Nurgle Marines were always such subtle and unassuming things...

>My ass has more subtle mutations of the warp

hair-ass-y

Honestly, the Iron Warriors chopping their mutations off and replacing them with bionics was one of the things about them I always thought was super creepy/cool.

>nu-40kids reading superior old lore and not just the latest ''''''''streamlined''''''' codex blurb
You expect too much of them.

One of those guys has literally a tentacle coming out of his ass that is used to reload the bolter.

You need to check your definition of subtle.

I chuckled

Just for those who are unaware, unless you're super lucky, the very first roll on the Realm of Chaos volumes mutation charts will typically result in your character being turned into some horrible variety of beastman. Or have a tentacle flapping about.

It's not that DV was subtle. They got a lot of detail on there. It's just that the new Plague Marines are overdone--they're stacking way too much shit that pulls the eye all over the place. Plus the poses are jank as fuck (look at Typhus and tell me the old pose wasn't 1000x better). The only shit pose from DV is the LC Chosen, the rest are solid.

Khornate mutations vs. Nurglite mutations and every disease known and unknown to man

Gee I wonder why the Death Guard are so fugly, what could it possibly be?

The Iron Warriors are the best marines,they reach the objective with cold logic,no matter the casualties or how much time does it takes

They are the definition of grimdark,and unlike the loyalist version(iron hands),their primarch is still sieging the Imperium leading armies of slaves and titans

>implying perturabo does anything

It's possible to make something horribly mutated without making it a horribly designed clusterfuck. The Dark Vengeance models aren't a great example of this because they are still a little busy but it's still possible, you just need good visual/character designers.

>Want to play the faction that gets rampant mutations
>Want to play the sub faction that probably outlast the other subfactions thus accruing ever more rampant mutations
>"Waaaaaah why do my models all gross mutants!"
I don't know what you fucking want OP. Buy one of the HH box sets and use those marines if you want plain, or just play a different faction.

Not really. This is what a champion fantasy warrior is supposed to look like after too much chaos boons (couple rolls on the table). Anything like Death Guard, Noise Marines, or Khorne Berserkers should be just as mutated on their own boon tables.

Those models aren't subtle at all. Chaos has never been subtle. Subtlety is not the issue. Excessiveness is not the issue, because Chaos has always been excessive. Pic related for both.

The issue is that big fleshy mouths and tentacles coming out of random armour plates looks shite, but they used those design elements on the Chosen you posted too.

CSM models reached an absolute low with the Possessed kit, but instead of pulling back to what worked before they're incorporated the goofiest elements of the Possessed into everything else, so even otherwise good kits are spoiled with silly litttl gremlin mouths on shit that is supposed to look cool.

It's subtle in comparison at least. The trend of GW trying to make every character look like a Christmas tree is not new, but it is not stopping either.

Yeah, but here's the thing, that looks fine. By overdesigned clusterfuck I meant overloaded with intricate and unnecessary details that make it look busy and unfocused.

When are we going to fucking get those Chosen as a separate kit? It's been years and I don't think DV is even sold anymore, is it?

It's not being sold anymore. I honestly doubt that they will because they usually don't release separate kits of starter kits since the sprues are all mishmatched together.

That'd be such a waste of good models though.

Maybe it will get repackaged as with Island of Blood. You can buy cultists separately at least.

Not the heavy weapons ones for some inane reason.

DV they goofed and just mixed all the sprues together.
The extra characters with their own sprues are sold seperately, which is a shame since those are nice models, and Kranon will never get any meaningful rules.

DI i think they have separate sprues since they are selling quick start snap fit of everything in the box, so they sort of learned their lesson.

I thought their loyalist version were the Imperial Fists? Who are the loyalist versions of the Traitor Legions?

They're a weird mix of both, like the Iron Hands they are cold, logical, calculating and obsessed with cybernetics, and like the Imperial Fists they are good at building fortresses and siege warfare, Their big rivals are the Imperial Fists so everyone usually associates them as being the two flavors of the same ice cream.

...

In the moment you will build a unit, you will realize that if the mutations are not subtle/small/rare, you will not have a visual coherency.

3000 year old unaligned renegades vs. 10000 year old Nurgle cult veterans of the long war.

>my Chaos unit must look orderly and uniform
You are bad at Chaos. You are bad at art.

2 different legions. The chaos space marines from dark vengeance =/= dark imperium. Cant you see the difference between crimson slaughter and death guards? Obviously the chaos influence wont be the same. Or did you just start an obvious bait thread?

I think you are missing the point. Even to build a chaotic unit you must suggest a whole to give it the impression that the models belong to a group.

Otherwise you do the same mistake of the rule writers when they think that chaos is LOLRANDOM

What are Primaris? What are Harlequins?

Chaos is LOLRANDOM. You can have guys that are literally boneless, other guys who are the elastic man, and other guys who are vectors of memetically spreading madness.

You don't obtain something convincing in this way both in rule writing and visual design.

That's a Blammin'

Yes you do. Chaos. Total body horror and lack of any unity, an army of shambling twisted mutants with no consistency or reason to them. It's newfags like you who ruined warhammer and made "Chaos" orderly.

aren't Harlequins the ones that SHOULD look like christmas ornamants

If this was redesigned today, it would have shit all around it, floating and flying around or bursting out of him and the model would be in an awkward pose.

I am playing since 3rd edition.
Older design is fascinating but does not create a great unit unless for specific "lost"units like the possessed or those "lost" chaos warriors in WHFB.. or just the spawns.
To understand what I mean, compare these plagues from DI with the ones in FW.
And speaking of spawn, you have to give a better coherency to your forces to do not look like the spawn otherwise none will tell the difference.
Jesus christ you are really obtuse, can't tell if by purpose or not.

Except they aren't supposed to have "units". They are an army of individuals. The Imperium is uniformity, Chaos is about individualism. A good Chaos army is kitbashed so every single unit is mutated or otherwise differentiated from every other model.

Its about the mutations, not the overdesign, they are supposed to be full of bullshit, they are veteran SM on 40k. Everyone is a fucking christimas tree, but now without giant tentacles on every single model

Last time I checked, plague marines are units of 5-20 individuals and terminators, in bas of the type, come in units of minimum 3 or minimum 5.
If you kitbash too wildly at least keep similar modifications in the same unit, or avoid to add unsubtle ones more than once every 5-10 models.
In the fluff they are individuals but they are still displayed like units. Following your advice does not help the look of the army. You are like those people that abuse technical paints.

>The Imperium is uniformity, Chaos is about individualism
Tell that to the Word Bearers. Or Iron Warriors. Or even Mortarion. Not everyone loses all cohesion and degenerates into a shambling mob.

Have each unit (as in gathering of models) be more individualized is a good compromise, since chaos war bands tend to be made up of dozens of small splinter factions and coteries. So rather than each individual marine being a snowflake, you make each squad it's own snowflake compared to the other squads. This squad may have puss, this squad has tenticles, etc...

>This squad may have puss, this squad has tenticles,
You can even have al in the same model but GW went overboard.
Is ok that 6 plagues out of 7 have bells, tentacles or pus. Small details here and there are great and give coherency to the army (so a bigger model like the drone, that has all of 3, feels "right").
The problem is that we have marines with tentacles from every orifice to shame an hentai and and marines with mode bells than a swiss canton. In the same unit, plus a third guy that has only few holes in the armor.
This is not visually coherent.

Guys

Who cares. Just fucking bye kits and build whatever you want

Oh, I am trimming my plagues even if I criticize them. If you dig enough there is a gorgeous mini.
Just, this will damage GW because I will buy less than planned. Way less.

>Just, this will damage GW

Yes, one modeller buying slightly less will damage GW

You realize anyone who actually knows how to model is NOT the target market demographic for a monopose fig

Dunno, I bought the plagues from ebay and I am not sure I am going to buy new stuff.
They also overcosted the plagues and the deathshroud.
I see your point but I think is because they think they customers buy once in impulse and do not play so the flashy stuff attracts painters and impulse buyers.
Same thing with the big models, that end ruining the game.

...

That daemon prince is a shit model. They tried to do a nurgle variant of the 10/10 metal chaos marine daemon prince but failed.
The design is straight from something like the old Mighty Max toys.

I painted these a decade ago. these are still, IMO, the best plague marines GW ever produced. I have since replaces most shoulders and bolters with new stuff or forgeworld parts, and am slowly repainting the whole army.

But, even though they are ancient, they are still some of my favourite models, my best units, and my most reliable game winners.

The new stuff is just too cartoony IMO. Too close to the CG aesthetic they are creating with Age of Sigmar. I am honestly disappointed at the Theme-park feeling I get from the army. Like they're all mascots in a Halloween Haunt attraction.

GIMME BACK MY GRIMDARK!

>theme park feeling

I want 10 of the top right so I can put old school raptor packs on them and use them as Warp talons for my night lords

i'm still pissed off they didn't release the chosen as a multipart box.

>expecting 6th-7th GW to do anything beneficial
That was your first mistake

Needs more tentacles and a mouth on the belly plate because just fuck my shit up GW.

The new one star have fewer signs of disease and more Tzeenchian mutations, imo.

To me I think the biggest problem with the CSM designs are they are forgetting the background of the CSM.

I'll use they Death Guard as an example.

In fluff it has been for years thats since their founding the DG have been minimalists. Even before the fall they were embittered & cynical souls lacking flare & subtlty. They would simply march toward an enemy knowing they'd outlast them. No big armour, no jet packs, no nothing. It was endure until you could grind them down to the point you overwhelm them, nothing fancy. Their armor and wargear reflected this, they went with the most basic of paint jobs because they saw little merit or point. Contrast this to the Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, Salamanders and Night Lords. Each went to great into great detail adding to their aesthetic because it represented something about them. For the BA & EC, the expression of beauty & perfection, Sallies tying back into their love of artisanship, the Promethean cult & Nocturne culture & the Night Lords using their appearance to intimidate as well as continue Nostroman Street Culture. On the other end of the scale were the Death Guard who saw, nor cared for extravagance, and were always minimalist in their appearance.

Now, consider the events surrounding the Death Guards fall. They didn't happily embrace going over to Nurgle, it was forced upon them. Even before the fall they were known to be embittered and cynical. So, to me atleast, it makes sense that even though they now worship Nurgle they do so with a detached bitterness and exceptance that this is their fate. The worship hasn't changed their bitter & minimalistic ways, it's reinforced it, especially as one of the aspects of Nurgle is resignation, and that is an emotion often tinged with bitterness. (CONT)

The flashy cartoony vibe of the paint job is about 80% of the problem. Flashy oversaturated colors, going purple on shit, it takes away from the gory stuff that was actually modeled. The studio also seems to steer clear of any additions to the paint scheme that involve non-GW stuff (adding putrid stuff, slime out of those mouths, things that really make it feel like a horror movie brought to life).

The last part of the problem is definitely how you pointed it out, these are fucking veterans of the long war. Stone cold killers, genetically modified and demonically reinforced to fuck your shit up. I wish stuff was just a bit more tacticool, still add the purity seals and the silly stuff, just make them look more like futuristic soldiers that have been corrupted; tentacles, horns, mutated arms are totally okay in my book, but the fucking armour plates with gaping mouths is something I always dislike at first and that is unlikely to change.

So the Plague marines to me, should be designed around the minimalistic design tinged with rot and neglect. Their armour is cracked, their weapons rusted, their innards spilling out through the unpatched pieces, design choices highlighting the bitterness, apathy and resignation that the Death Guard have adopted as a result of having Nurgle forced upon them. And this is why I hate the new DG design.

To me they are too "Happy Nurgle", too packed with the Nurgle Vibrancy and life. Whilst I get that is also and aspect of Nurgle I feel this aspect is best represented in his Daemons, where his boundless enthusiasm and vibrancy can be expressed in the physical manifestations of Nurgles emotions, that being his daemons. The Death Guard represent, as stated previously, embitted resignation, they're not the happy go lucky and vibrant that the new minis are trying to represent. They are cynical, embittered and enduring minimalists who only have their apathy and hatred to sustain them. Packing them with over the top detail, with smiling nurglings, and Dynamic detail just doesn't suit what they are.

And this is why the new designs suck. They're going for mutated cartoon villain rather than embittered veterans with a huge chip on their shoulders and this is what is corrupting them. This is also why a lot of over the top detail ruins the models. The mutation on the Dark Vengeance fit the Crimson Slaughter, but it would fit the Iron Warriors, or Night Lords, or even the Word Bearers (who always look better when painted to be covered in occult script and symbolism). It's also why I advocate for details such as mutation to be added on as part of a mutation sprue whilst keeping the basic kit minimalist as corruption for the CSM occurs for different reasons and thus manifests in different ways Simply going for all CSM are tentacled mutants only ends up with a one dimensional faction instead of the diverse force of super-warriors only united through their hatred.

but tentacles and spikes are what attracts me to chaos

Guys easy solution is to just assemble them using the plainer bits, use more muted realistic psint schemes and cut off anything you don't like.
It's not a big deal. Probably the only inexcusably silly thing is the dynamic pose on the DG sergeant from DI. DG just don't seem like the best faction for dynamic poses.

>what went wrong?

Nurgle?
I mean the big difference is that the Death Guard are all in on Big Poppa Plagues and thus get access to the PREMIUM mutations.

I love the IW, but it always bothered me.

If they chop of the mutation, why do they instal cybernetics there? Also, if they want the cybernetic third arm, they have to wait for the mutation to appear, chop it off, and THEN replace it, which is retarded.

My interpretation of IW is they do what they feel is practical. If they wanted a third arm, they'd have to have a purpose, and would use their contacts in the dark mechanicum to make it happen. The ultimate thing is that it would have to have a use. Unlike Emperor's Children who would do it on a whim, or a Tzeentch worhsipper who would embrace the change, an Iron Warrior would have to have to have a purpose. Remember the Iron Warriors, by very nature of their chosen specialization, are pragmatists, anything they do have to have a purpose.

God damn I love the IW, I wish we could get some Chaos kits that fit their aesthetic better and isn't retarded horns/mutations everywhere like all the other legions

>"man, I would fancy myself a third arm"
>"too bad I don't have a slimy tentacle coming out of my abdomen"
>"oo! there is a slimy tentacle coming out of my abdomen!'
>"I can now get rid of it and put a metal one in there"

that is still retarded

I think you missed the point retard

>I want a third Limb, helps me chart my siege plans and gives me extra limb to shoot bolter whilst storming trenches (or maybe make third limb a melta gun to melt holes in Buildings and Vehicles)
>Go to Dark Mechanicum
>Use tech heresy to install bionic third limb
>Iron Warrior now has third limb.

You missing that this what what I meant is retarded.

Fully, and this goes back to my hope future Chaos kits are a simple as they can be, with GW releasing mutation kits to provide for those who want (as well as detailed Greenstuff tutorials to help hobbyist scuplt them on themselves)

Alpha Legion exists if you want to look like vanilla marines user.

It makes sense if their guideline is "improve/replace what's already there" without excessive spontaneous modification. Any tentacle or third arm or what have you counts as a new part of their body and becomes eligible for "improvement".

>"The Dark Gods wanted me to have this limb. I'm just making it sturdier."

You are talking about IW getting themselves additional cybernetic limbs. I am talking about IW chopping of their mutated bits and then replacing them with cybernetics.

If you want chaos marines that aren't over designed just use mark 3 dudes from the prospero box. Then you can choose how much mutation you want on your models.

I always took the spirit of the original lore was that the Iron Warriors held the mutations in contempt. If the mutation was extraneous, such as a face tentacle, it would be amputated, and that would be it. If, however, the mutation compromised a limb or body part intrinsically (such as a Warriors left arm turning into a giant crab claw, or his eye opening into a fanged mouth) then that part would be replaced with a cybernetic equivalent in order to keep the marine at full fighting capacity.

I think answers this question better than I can. But Extra limbs I think would end up cauterized rather then made into bionics as if it's not welcome it'd be seen as a hindrance.

>Face and tongue exploding out of kneecap
>subtle

The basic csm are pretty clean and usually just with a few spikes or skulls extra. If you want "clean" marines, use them.
I'm not a fan of a gazillion things coming out of a model (that also sucks when you try to transport your army btw) but except the new tychus and sometimes to much "smoke" bitz, I'm fine with the DG design.

For new csm they should take a look at the DV chosen or Gal Vorbak from FW.

>If they chop of the mutation, why do they instal cybernetics there

If an IW's arm turned into a tentacle they'd lop it off because mutations are gay, then they'd replace it with a robo-arm because otherwise they'd only have one arm and that's inefficient. If they felt the need for a third robo-arm, they'd just install one, they wouldn't start praying to the gods to grow a third arm to lop off.

This, the IW don't bend the knee to the Dark Gods, they only seek their power when it suits them, and only if it's on their terms. They view them as a pantheon, but seek their own ambitions. Self reliance and self sufficiency, that's what makes the IW awesome as Fuck

user has it here. The death guard were always in a more subtle version of the Thousand Sons' situation. Even though they are tzeentch-alligned, they show no flesh change, no avian features, no weird warp shenanigans. That's what tzeentch daemons and beastmen are for, the thousand sons are their own thing, begrudgingly allied to tzeentch, and so they embody some of his aesthetic (egypt, scholars and scribes), but not all of it.
Imagine if they did the same thing to the thousand sons release as they did with death guard, rubric marines with horrendously mutated armour with bird wings and tentacles growing out of them at random points. It makes sense for chaos sorcerers/lords to be blessed with many mutations even when their legions aren't, as it'll always be the ones that stand out that... stand out to their gods, but the bulk of each legion never was representative of the entirety of their gods, only aspects.
The over-the top, lively mutations present on the death guard are in direct contrast to the dead and decayed appearance of the old death guard.

Really doesn't help either, it looks like they completely ignored all established death guard armour colours when designing this new range. Shit, none of the new nurgle units are painted with any nugle's rot or typhus corrosion!

>chaosfag
>don't like mutations

I know you picked the wrong side but thems the breaks. I love seeing the regret from yall.

2nd edition Chaos did away with making every CSM a mutated freak

And 2nd edition Chaos is the foundation for all Chaos ever since
No one cared about stuff like Night Lords or Word Bearers before this
It introduced Abaddon, Kharn, Ahriman, Fabius - none of which have any visible mutations

Do you think Kharn would be improved if he had a tentacle for a head and a 12 foot spike coming out of his anus?

>2nd edition Chaos did away with making every CSM a mutated freak
>And 2nd edition Chaos is the foundation for all Chaos ever since

And that's EXACTLY why it was shit. You went from these blood-curdling horrors and daemon possessed monstrosities wearing warped, baroque armor to what? Spikey edgemaster marines.

>No one cared about stuff like Night Lords or Word Bearers before this

Probably because the idea of Chaos had -just- been introduced a couple years before. Nobody cared about Raven Guard or Iron Hands when Rogue Trader was first released, either. Things take time.

>It introduced Abaddon, Kharn, Ahriman, Fabius - none of which have any visible mutations

Wow, a bunch of SPESHUL characters that appeal to 12 year olds. You're really on a roll here my friend.

Honestly, the best thing about the Death Guard is that it makes all the edgelords whine and gnash their teeth about how Chaos is going in a bad direction. No, Chaos is going back to how it USED to be, before the company was taken over by a former tax inspector.

>That image
"Wow I really like the new Chaos army! They don't have any Chaos too them! They're angry and hate the world, just like me!"

And to answer your question - Kharn would have been improved if he had never existed

Dude, there is being contrary, and being retarded. The embittered and jaded traitor veteran in all its varying flavors is a much better and more solid theme than the LOL RANDUM borderline spawn marines with nothing going for them beside "WERE LOL RANDUM MUTANTS". The fluff after Rogue Trader made them relatable, meaning people could get behind them and make them "There guys". It added depth and variety. What your advocating is a return to a 1980's Saturday Cartoon 1 dimensional villain. Making the faction Cobra Commander with tentacles is not a step forward but a huge step back.

My guess is you're the same contrarian sperg who's been shitting up every thread with this bullshit. And dude it's time to stop, you obviously don't get what makes 40K great and think because of "NOSTALGIA" we should go back to a time when things weren't as f;eshed out or unique. Rogue Trader is good because it was the seed from which a lot of awesome grew, but the awesome and depth came afterwards. If you think that stripping away everything that has been added over the years back to basic concept is great then you're not really a 40K fan and dont have anything positive to contibute to these discussions. I accept that maybe you're trolling, but you're shitting up the threads any any constructive conversation anyone is having. Stop being "That Guy". If that's what you like, fine, model what you like, but please stop insisting your rather shallow and ignorant tastes should be everyone else's.

>The embittered and jaded traitor veteran in all its varying flavors is a much better and more solid theme than the LOL RANDUM borderline spawn marines with nothing going for them beside "WERE LOL RANDUM MUTANTS".

For one, you clearly never even read Slaves to Darkness or Lost and The Damned, so you have no idea what you're talking about. There are multiple stories in those books detailing their hatred, as well as their devotion to the dark gods as well as destroying the Imperium from within.

Also, why should 10,000 year old post human warriors living in unreality be relatable in any way, shape, or form? There are ways to create strong characters who do things beyond our understanding and have them be interesting, but not necessarily relatable.

>Making the faction Cobra Commander with tentacles is not a step forward but a huge step back.

As if they weren't already that, with Abaddon at the helm constantly getting pushed back by the perfidious Cadians until it was all retconned as him making little victories here and there?
The 2nd edition and on background turned them into the Saturday morning cartoon villain. All of your complaints stem from the background you profess to prefer.

>If you think that stripping away everything that has been added over the years back to basic concept is great then you're not really a 40K fan and dont have anything positive to contibute to these discussions.

Except it's not stripping back to a basic concept, it's expanding upon the initial concept. Kind of funny to not call me a 40k fan when you probably started in 5th edition and loved the idea of renegade warbands and the only difference between Chaos Marines and Imperial Marines was the spikes. (and maybe a couple skulls)

A lot of people think the way I do, and a lot of people are happy that the new Death Guard expands upon concepts first introduced over 20 years ago. You're on the losing side now. Deal with it.

The problem with the Deathguard is that they're too detailed while at the same time not being detailed enough. When you look at the armour it's got a few holes in it, it's not even that dirty. You could see the armour be something worn by the Imperium and have no problem with it.

Then you have the accessories, which are on everything ever in every possible way. Every joint has a tentacle flopping out of it, there's chainmail hanging from everything, massive balls and bells. It's a completely cluster fuck of over designed non-sense because they COULD do it with 3d sculpting.

This is the problem with the new Death guard. They could 3D sculpt them so they did, which let them cover them in infinite shit. They're over designed and then painted up too cleanly. They don't look like old Chaos because they have too many accessories having off them.

This is exactly what happened to computer games. Our tech got so good that we lost sight of the original idea and started a graphics race. Nurgle now is now about decay or corruption, it's about how much chainmail you can dangle off something

3rd edition is when they stripped 40k of it's character and went this mass production route. Every model in an army had to be interchangable so you no longer got cluster fuck stuff, just multipart kits.

Somebody should really shoop this to
>A lof them are just really Intelligent, Nihilistic and with a Wicked Sense of Humor
or
>A lot of them just have two personalities, nicest person you will ever meet and twisted fucking psychopath

This. DV is just as overdetailed.