/HHG/ Horus Heresy General

>What is getting ambushed by the Alpha Legion and getting shit kicked by the Sons of Horus

>left no successors

Wolf Brothers were a second founding chapter of the Space Wolves. And Wolfspears of the Ultima Founding. Skyrar's Dark Wolves are potentially SW, but no official recognition has been made.

>What happened that led to 98% of the Wolves dying offscreen?

Horus Heresy.

>bringing up the Ultima Founding

Nigga that has nothing to do with second founding numbers or original legion offshoots whatsoever.

Those are higher casualty rates than the Raven Guard and Salamanders at Istvann. By all accounts, Space Wolves should be considered a Shattered Legion and totally incapable of tipping the balance at Terra.

Well, neither does the 2500 Space Marines alive in 40k got anything to do with the Second Founding.

There was a single attempted successor chapter (Wolf Brothers) that ended badly for undisclosed reasons. The Second Founding was at the end of the Scouring, so there's plenty of time for the legion to get reduced in number even after whatever the Wolf Cull is.

So they lose a bunch at Prospero, recruiting accelerates on Fenris and probably on Terra (in the new short story Restorer, the IF and WS are recruiting like crazy there, before the BA arrive), then they lose another bunch at Alaxxes, then Yarant, and then continue to be hounded by the Alpha Legion and are kept from Terra (perhaps deliberately if they needed to keep the AL away).

Everyone’s feeling spent after the Siege of Terra, but in a way the Siege is only the midpoint of the war. It’s the turning point, after which it’s clear who’s won, kind of like El Alamein or Stalingrad. There’s still going to be a ton of bloodshed as the newly ascendant side starts pushing the enemy towards their last stand (except they’re safe in the Eye of Terror, so it isn’t really a last stand).

Second founding would at least lower the number from "30k SW" to "40K SW". Ultima founding doesn't, because they didn't take any of the 40K SW and turn them into Wolfspears.

Using the Ultima founding as an explanation for "why did these SW numbers go down" is fucking retarded, since Ultima founding has nothing to do with any existing marine numbers, other than increasing them.

GW is ass at scale, news at 11.

Best to just pretend that Wolves are still legion-strength or just under legion strength. Everything makes more sense this way. Not like they ever gave a fuck about the Codex to begin with.

Second founding happened 7 years after the end of the Heresy. During that time there would have been plenty of action seen by legions with the marines to spare while others recovered. Plus Russ took the 13th Great Company and left, taking a bunch of marines with him.

>higher casualty rates than the Raven Guard and Salamanders at Istvann.

Pretty sure those two were smaller. And I doubt SW went from 100,000 to 2500 in one go. But the Heresy saw a lot of action and Russ wasn't exactly a tactical genius.

Scouring, war of the beast, black crusades.
Many opportunities to lose a lot of the marines.

>it was only used widely for boarding actions and very specific legions
Not true, as argued in the last thread.

>Guy in last thread being mad about guy choosing to clean after building
>Being mad about someone's methods of cleaning plastic models

Why are people so fucking pathetic?

>space wolf
>no beard

Ragnar must be purged from the chapter,only Russ himself is able to kill the enemies of the Emperor without a beard

>Using the Ultima founding as an explanation for "why did these SW numbers go down" is fucking retarded

Well, it's good I'm not doing that, isn't it? I'm using Wolfspears as an example of SW having successors. What I'm not doing, is using 40k numbers to speculate on 30k numbers, when we don't even have numbers on great company sizes during the second founding.

Also, aren't some of the primarines from 30k, kept in stasis for 10,000 years?

Either he was trying to make people mad or he was genuinely retarded. This is Veeky Forums, either is likely.

There's no excuses for doing it wrong.

Why not both? Meme aside I genuinely think some people are too stupid or autistic in this hobby to be ok with other people using their own methods.

>Implying there's only one right way to clean a model

>Best to just pretend that Wolves are still legion-strength or just under legion strength.
"Legion-strength" used to mean 10-25,000 strong in old fluff. FW multipled by 10 (give or take a factor of 2) when they started their black books. The older Black Library books used the old convention, hence the Thousand Sons being 15,000 strong. After FW made their change, they revised the numbers in subsequent printings of the novels.

I always assumed that the Space Wolves' numbers were in the low thousands in M41, but some passages could be interpreted as each Great Company being roughly chapter-sized for a total of a little over 10,000 (until one of the Great Companies was stated to be 200 strong, hence the lower number).

Either way, the legions got smashed during the Heresy and Scouring and that's why there's that conspiracy theory about the Heresy being the Emperor's way of culling the legions, since he couldn't just wipe them out with the Custodes the way he had the Thunder Warriors. It would've been fine if not for Magnus destroying the Webway Project.

don't forget there's supposed to be half a million plus Ultra-smurfs.

Has he not always been that way?

There's actually an exact line up of Logan's great company in the 7th Champions of Fenris book.

Yep. Grimnar's and Ragnar's is about 200 strong.

Reminder that the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders still haven't recovered from Istvaan V 10k years later.

Raven Guard have garbage geneseed, Salamanders have a miniscule recruitment pool.... I'm not sure what the Iron Band's excuse is

I thought Book 5 said it was more like 250,000. Maybe the larger figure includes the dudes who didn't make it all the way through the induction process; the UM actually find combat uses for them.

>Nice of you to omit the first part of the sentence:
It said, "this mark was obsolete by..." so I didn't think they were referring specifically to early-production Mk II, but Mk II in general. I see where you're coming from though.

>Interesting note from Book 3, pg. 141:
>>"Aftermath, Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre - DAY 4"
>>"Legionary Ghelt wears late production MkIV 'Maximus' power armour"

That is indeed strange. I guess it makes sense if Mk IV wasn't produced for long. The Panther tank was only made for two and a half years, but it has early and late variants… because we can see the difference between them. I can’t say that about early and late Mk II, III, or IV power armor.

We know Mars and Anvilus, two of the most advanced forge worlds in the galaxy, were heavily damaged. Maybe they couldn’t make Mk IV anymore, despite the vastly smaller of space marines to supply. Mk VII from then on. Sad.

>Iron Hands
Ferrus was a dumbass and refused to uplift his people so their recruitment pool also remained fairly small

Played my first 30k game today, 2500pts of Mechanicum vs Raven Guard.

It was pretty fun, besides that I rolled shit, and my opponent rolled great all game. My Warmachine-tinted glasses got in the way several times ("What do you mean I have to target the closest model in a unit first?" "Why can you deal wounds to models you can't see?" "What do you mean my models stay put when they fail charge distance?" "Oh right, models can't always move and shoot guns.")

Many rules were forgotten, and many mistakes were made, but overall it was fun. Going to play more on saturday.

Notes to self: Don't charge your Thanatar into melta marines turn 1. They will both do nothing forever.
Do not forget Thallax and MCs are Relentless.
Do not forget how targeting rules work so all your magos arent killed in one turn of shooting.
Do not be heartbroken when your badass Knight Paladin is wrecked top of turn 1.
Don't bother to climb tall buildings.
Don't charge your non-heavy chainbladed Thallax into melee for no good reason. They will do nothing forever.
Don't have all your rules on a smartphone in three different places. If only FW or Battlescribe actually put all the rules in one spot.

I guess we learn from our mistakes. Time to read the rulebook.

>Do not be heartbroken when your badass Knight Paladin is wrecked top of turn 1
Jesus, that's one hell of an alpha strike.

I haven't gotten a chance to play for like three months so I'm glad your first game was fun. Any pics of your mech?

> Raven Guard

Best Legion strikes again!

You think that's bad? Thousand Sons are supposed to be the smallest legion, numbering about 100,000 Astartes at their height, but other sources say that Raven Guard were only ever numbering 80,000 Astartes before Isstvan V.

One of the guys I used to play with on the regular went to LVO this year and killed ~6 knights in three turns, they're honestly not that tough. No I'm not jaded you are.

RG before Istvaan suffered heavy losses.
Gate 42

>being mad about someone being mad in a different thread

Ten lascannon heavy suppport squad with an anti-vehicle specialist I forget the name of will do that, apparently.

Few good (and reasonably sized) ones. This is one of my Castellax. Archmagos in a sec

...

Converted Tech thralls

They look a bit too crisp and clean for my taste, but well painted!

I don't usually weather my models much. The most I've done on my Mechanicum is a few coatings of Agrax Earthshade on the feet and claws on my automata. Weathering can add a lot to a model, but I like them clean. I'm also lazy :p

I would assume each Great Company was chapter sized. So 13 companies would still give them 13,000 troops. Plus support staff. Seeing that Russ wasn't fond of the Codex and Dorn had to be muscled into it, it's possible it's the least Russ could do to comply while still ignoring it. It's possible once he left with the 13th, the Great Company numbers slowly dropped to make the chapter as a whole comply with the Codex more and more, as Russ, a primarch, couldn't tell the authorities to suck his knotted dick.

Very nice models user.

I am a fan of this magos

You picked a good faction for clean looking models, at least! The Mechanicum are nothing if not obsessive in their maintenance.

Thank you, user. I need to get some better pictures someday.

He's based on Iron Lich Ashpyxious from Warmachine. I'm thinking about rebuilding/building another based on a similar but honestly better looking model from the same range. We have the technology.

Exactly. I imagine my armies are freshly deployed, before they've been in any major battles. Or maybe they're equipped with anti-dirt field archeotech, who knows.

>this mark

An early production mark, mind you.

Also, other titbits:
>"Pictured here in MkIV 'Maximus' pattern power armour, which was standard issue for the Legion at the time."
-Book 2, pg. 145

So MkIV was standard issue for WB during the Dropsite Massacre.

>"MkII 'Crusade' pattern armour: Long employed by the Legions during the Great Crusade, its reinforced armour makes it ideal for hazardous environments and intense short-range actions."
-Book 2, pg. 146

The picture shows a MkII, so it's not a typo.

>"The Blind helm was tom by the sons of Perturabo from the corpses of the Black Judges, and is a bionicalty-assimilated armoured helmet that integrates with Astartes power armour thanks to shared Standard Template Construct heritage."
-Book 4, pg. 225

Power armour confirmed for STC.

>"Iron armour was developed during the Great Crusade, not to replace Crusade armour, but to be used alongside it in close-quarters boarding actions and tunnel fighting. Ostensibly a suit of modified Crusade armour, it featured additional armour panels on the greaves, forearms, thighs, chest and groin, plus larger shoulder pads and a more angular helm to deflect bullets away from the face. To compensate for the heavy front plates, Iron armour was not reinforced at the back, making it ideal for frontal assaults and battles in claustrophobic environments, but unsuitable for regular combat duties."
warhammer-community.com/2016/10/27/power-armour-through-the-ages/

>So MkIV was standard issue for WB during the Dropsite Massacre.
Sounds about right for most of the traitor legions.

The old fluff seemed to suggest that Mk III was actually weakened in the rear (but the groin was reinforced in front, so you can receive but not give). This just says Mk III wasn't reinforced in the rear the way the front was.

I'm not going to think too hard about it; unreliable narrator, and all that. It sounds like it was meant to be specialized, but some legions or individual marines thought "regular combat duties" meant "frontal assaults" so they went ahead and used it all the time.

I would've charged a Thanatar into a melta squad. Those squads are usually slightly more points than a Thanatar, and if you don't charge them you're doomed.

The Wolves didn't go from 100k to 2.5k overnight. Though they didn't break apart like the other legions during the Second Founding, they were very aggressive in pursuing traitor elements after the Heresy, during which time they probably bled off much of their excess forces. Lose a few hundred men here and there, slow down/improve recruitment standards, and over the course of a few thousand years even the Wolves would be looking kinda skimpy.

Omae wa mou shindeiru

So I may have picked a slow time to start, but I recently started amassing a Sons of Horus army, and I'm trying to get it up to 3k.

Thing is I'm not too sure how to build the SoH to be fluffy, most of the stuff I've read on them says they're a shock attack legion but I don't just want to make them like Blood Angels lite. Hoping for some C&C on the list I've thrown together so far. Right now it's.

SoH 3K List: Warmaster's Spear
---------------------------------------------
Rite of War: The Black Reaving

Master of Signal 95pts
>Barebones

Legion Praetor 155pts
>Cataphractii Armour and Paragon Blade

Justaerin Terminators x10, 475pts
>4x Power Fists

Legion Tactical Squad x15, 215pts
>Additional CC weapons
>Sergeant Artificer Armour

Legion Tactical Squad x15, 215pts
>Additional CC weapons
>Sergeant Artificer Armour

Reaver Attack Squad x10, 270pts
>5x Power Weapons
>Sergeant Artificer Armour

Reaver Attack Squad x10, 270pts
>5x Power Weapons
>Sergeant Artificer Armour

Anvillus Dreadclaw Drop Pod 100pts

Anvillus Dreadclaw Drop Pod 100pts

Legion Javelin Attack Speeder x2, 130pts
>Both have twin-linked Lascannons

Deathstorm Drop Pod 115pts

Spartan Assault Tank 360pts
>Flare Shield and Frag Assault Launchers

Horus the Warmaster 500pts
---------------------------------------

Basic plan is to put the Reavers in the Dreadclaws and drop them both turn 1 with Drop Pod Assault, the Tacticals advance with the Spartan laying down fire and the Javelins and Spartan try and pop armour. Horus, Praetor and the Justaerin hop in the Spartan for a Deathstar lite since I don't have a Medicae for them.

I feel like I'm a little light on anti-armour and I probably won't be getting too much milage from Cut Them Down. Also I know Assault marines are better than Reavers but I like the fluff of it, is there anything I'm really missing here?

>tfw you want to play a comfy game with a bigass XX army but you've never played a game before every despite being in this hobby since 2001

>tfw you look at rules and build mock lists on battlescribe

*ever

The highest estimate of the TSons numbers are 90,000 in Inferno. around 60,000 of those die on Prospero, with another several thousand killed by their brother marines in other war fronts.

One of the best things about Horus and termies is accurate teleporting on the turn you want. You can save points from the Spartan for other AT tanks, dreads, or such. I run a lot of deep striking termies in 3k+ points for fun

>Plus Russ took the 13th Great Company and left, taking a bunch of marines with him.
200 years after the Heresy.

As far as making them fluffy, the Sons of Horus got the first fielding of Tactical Dreadnought Plate

Didnt the 13th all disappear during Prospero? Or am I thinking of older fluff?

It did. Russ took the 1st with him.

Oh sweet, I didn't know that. I've actually got a buddy trying to offload a bunch of cataphractii right now so guess I'll grab his to amp up my numbers

Did some list editing and now instead of a Spartan, and dropping 2 fists from the Justaetan I'd be running

Cataphractii Terminators x5 185pts
>Sergeant grenade harness

Cataphractii Terminators x5 185pts
>Sergeant grenade haness

Hopefully that gives me some more punch, but does it kinda cripple my anti-tank? I've only got 2 twin linked lascannons on the javelins now

there was a lull at work and i was thinking to myself; how would it feel to be a normal space wizard on prospero? like just an ordinary legionary?
how do you think it would feel, being confident in that you were doing the right thing and then suddenly your brother legion drops onto your planet and you're at war, protecting what you never thought you'd have to protect against your own kind.
i never thought that a story would make me think so much. but there's something wierdly interesting about the 1ksons that just doesn't get me like the other legions do.

So Horus can teleport with any termies, and Justaerin can report with the Black Reaving. Abaddon also lets a unit go with him. Having a mix of termies is really good.

As for AT, consider dreads or Sicaran variants, maybe planes even

I really dislike the lone spartan. Reason one is that it and a pair of javelins are nowhere near enough anti-tank at 3000 points. The second reason is that every single anti-tank gun will be on the spartan turn 1 and as illustrated concentrated fire can quickly drop heavy vehicles.

Summing up my main point your army lacks AT and your death star will have its transport destroyed turn 1. I suggest weakening the death star or dropping the drop pods (he he he) freeing up more points either for heavy vehicles or simply more units if you want to rely on human waves and a foot slogging death star (although I thought Horus and co. could teleport).

Honestly I would prefer a smaller group of justaerin who are all fists. Its great for wrecking other two wound termies and offers a degree of flexibility against vehicles.

It'd be even more shocking as one of the Imperial Army regiments that was just stopping by for a brief period of time! At least the TSons knew they were upsetting some people.

But yeah, it's a fascinating story. You're protecting civilians from space invaders literally turning into werewolves, as your own side starts getting weird too...

that gets me like the other legions dont* fug
did the 1ksons start showing mutations at all during the heresy or just once they went full dust?

I think theres conflicting information on that. Some sources say that they chased the 1k sons into a portal on Prospero, another says they were tasked by Russ to hunt down Abbaddon in the eye of terror, and yet another says they fucked off with Russ. I'm not sure what the canon answer is but Id love clarification either way

Salamanders did recruit from other planets before the heresy

Chinaman delivered

>did the 1ksons start showing mutations at all during the heresy or just once they went full dust?
...Seriously?

That's their whole thing, they were being killed in droves by super-warp-cancer until Magnus struck a deal with Tzeentch to stop it. Magnus tells them it's because he's the master Psyker and they can to by studying the Warp, leaving out the fucking Godlike being he bargained with. Magic pisses off the other Legions until the SW are sent and after that Tzeentch reneges on his deal and gives out super-warp-cancer like candy again until Ahriman steps up and dusts everyone.

Ahriman's endgame is to become the God of Magic and usurp Tzeentch, even if he wont admit it, which Tzeentch fucking loves and why he keeps him around

Wolves were whittled down to nothing after the losses incurred in the Heresy (particularly at Prospero, Alexxes, and the Wolf-Cull) and Magnus' invasion of Fenris in M32

Millenia later, your body is naught more than dust in a suit, sustained only by your own gift that proved to damn you and your brothers. Suddenly, an attack comes from the descendants of the legion that started all of this madness. "For the Emperor," they shout. Your blood would boil had you any left -- You thought you were fighting for the Emperor before this madness took your legion from you.

TSons turned to dust lose all function related to thinking and memory. In m42, Yvraine transformed some TSons back into their old living forms and they acted as though they walked out of a time machine from m32.

was just curiously, mostly. like if they got tentacles and arms and shit but it mostly seems like they just got nixed if anything.
i do like how ahriman is very obviously trying to be better than a primarch at being a wizard
wonder what it feels like to be dust sealed inside a giant suit of armour.
man, how would a restored tson would react to a 40k tson

Codex better fucking mention what happened to them after Ahriman chased or I'll do fucking nothing because I am powerless
Probably horrified

Awesome, thanks for all the advice guys! I'm probably gonna overhaul the list and give it another go, I'm thinking min. tac squads bolstered by Justaerin and maybe Horus/ Abaddon bringing normal termies in. Then maybe a Dorito, Javelins and a Sicaran or Laser Destroyer Vindicator for AT.

Also thinking take some jump pack reavers or assault marines so the termies can benefit from 'Cut Them Down'

I'll post the new list tomorrow when I'm back from work, I'm getting pumped for 30k now!

>Codex better fucking mention what happened to them after Ahriman chased
Sadly even if Ahriman saved them they probably died to the Flesh Change. Theres a reason the Rubric was cast in the first place and just reversing it doesnt solve the original problem.

Fuckin' Xenos

I would play 40k TSons if there was a splinter faction rescued by Yvraine and devoted to Ynnead. Sure it would be super extra silly noblebright shit, but I think it would be cool.

Sometimes the best quirky ideas just come up in conversation.
"If the humans are stuck being idiots, then how can they be stuck being idiots in space?"
"Mostly because of the Mechanicum exploiting them but not educating them."
"So if Fenris has a space fleet, it can't be that bad."
"Well, you have to remember the Lost On Fenris angle. If you don't freeze to death, the ice cracks and you drown. If you don't drown, you starve. If you don't starve, you start getting gangrene. Food poisoning from eating gangrenous limbs. The wolves get you. You get killed by vikings-"
"Yeah, I get the point."
"(Not to mention Lion El'Johnson's Tarzan planet). A lot of the planets have a different genre feel to them, the old stories, like westerns and Zane Grey, and Jack London.
"So are there any gunslinger primarchs?"
...
"Dammit. Now I can't stop thinking about how awesome that idea is."
(yes everybody's got guns, but a Clint Eastwood, Lone Ranger, wild west primarch with a revolver? Yeah Space marines are unstoppable, but nothing can stop a writer's-pet primarch. All about skill, not overpower? Can shoot the Alpha Legion microfiche off a passing piece of dust? The peaceful type, but can still brawl a megacity to death for being foulmouthed ganger scum? Now that's awesome.)

To anyone who used that HH 8th fandex that was going around: did they do the Talons stuff from Inferno or just the Astartes?

Are you butt flustered you built your model in a counter intuitive way, then someone called you out on autism?

I remember the guy who put the shitty model together saying it was "cathartic". Look up the definition of cathartic and tell me that autist isn't a twat

no, but there are much easier ways to do it, rather than glue the fucker willy nilly then "clean" it after.

much simpler to smooth and file the pieces before assembly, then greenstuffing is even easier at that point

What? Not the builder but catharic method is of creating catharsis. Releasing daily tension or frustrations through cleaning and scraping plastic is exactly the form of catharisis in mind.

Calm yourself autismo. He wasn't wrong.

read book

Why can't you just let people build models the way they want to? The guy posts regularly and all his models seem cleaned up when painted.

...

pointing out that he is making his life harder than it needs to be is wrong?

Let's never strive to do better or anything, cause that might hurt someones feelbads.

>Implying a strong release of frustration from daily life isn't catharsis