D&d 5e, Barbarians underpowered to other melee classes?

A few considerations:
1. When you're measuring damage, you should use averages of dice. A d6 doesn't always deal 6 damage. The average of a common die is (number+1)/2, so a d6 has an average of 3.5 while a d8 has an average of 4.5 and a d12's avg is 6.5.
2. Gear matters in D&D. As you yourself mentioned, he has a 1H sword that is stronger than your 2H sword, and also uses a shield. His armor is also better than yours. You don't seem to have nearly the same level of gear than him, so of course your calculations say you're weaker. An average 1H weapon deals 1d8 damage at most.
3. You do know you add 1.5xSTR while wielding a 2H weapon, right? At least I believe 5e does this just like 3.5, even though your rage damage isn't increased by this.
4. A paladin doesn't last nearly as much as you do in combat. Sure, he might have more damage thanks to OP gear, but he has less HP and no DR through rage. Your job here is to close in on enemies and protect your allies. You're not the DPS monster the barbarian was in 3.5, but you're a fine wall of meat blocking the enemy's way with a decent damage to keep their attention.

Stop using reckless attack so often
Why are you even using half-plate?

And of course the guy using Sunsword would be doing more damage than you, holy shit. It does 2d8+2d6+2

>2d6
Err, scratch that
But dont forget you have double your listed health as effective health, due to taking half damage. You also do a flat +2 damage while raging

Yes but raging is a limited resource and only has 4 uses per long rest.

so either i rage during 4 encounters to take half damage or rage when needed but risk taking full damage, Either way rage has it's limits.

Paladin has higher AC, Almost the same health and the ability to heal 40 hp.

The bigger AC and damage is due to better gear. He should be dealing less damage, but he has a plot sword that is better at everything compared to your weapon. That same sword also lets him wield a shield, so his AC gets bigger. It's much more of a gear issue than a class issue.

Also, if you're doing more than 4 encounters hard enough to kill you without DR from rage, you're doing something wrong here.

First off, that sword on the paladin is really fucking good, which obviously throws off the comparison.

Second, I think your taking how much utility you gain from Sentinel for granted. It's a fantastic feat for a frontline tank, which is what barbarians are made for.

Adding to a his, I think you added his dueling to damage for an extra +2? IIRC you have to have your other hand empty to benefit from dueling. So he should either have less damage or less AC. But either way, the sunsword is a plot sword. Of course the guy wielding it is going to out damage you. Play tank instead. If your allies aren't healing you, then you have shitty allies.

> You do know you add 1.5xSTR while wielding a 2H weapon, right?
Not in 5e

If u have GWM, why aren't you power attacking for an extra ten damage per hit when your reckless attack advantage cancels out the lower chance to hit? Definitely always worth it on things with low AC.

>IIRC you have to have your other hand empty to benefit from dueling

You can use shields with dueling. Dueling doesn't require a free hand and shields don't count as weapons.

Can someone rate this race for me?

Dark Troll
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Constitution, +1 Strength
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 feet
Vision: Darkvision 120 feet
Underworld Dweller: You have Proficiency in Perception and Stealth
Sunlight Sensitivity: You suffer Disadvantage on sight-based Perception checks and on attack rolls when you or the object of your attack/scrutiny is in direct sunlight.
Rock Gut: You are capable of deriving sustenance from any organic food source or inorganic substance such as rock. However you may only digest rock and other inorganic substances once per long rest. You have resistance to poison while using Rock Gut.
Uz Weapon Training: You have Proficiency in Club, Greatclub, Mace and Sling

Thoughts? i feel I gave them too many features and I could cut the Stealth proficiency if so.

Darkvision should actually be a form of sonar...
That's assuming that you are porting RQ Uz into some d&d varient.

Dark Troll
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Constitution, +1 Strength
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 feet
Vision: Blindsight 30 feet
Underworld Dweller: You have Proficiency in Perception and Stealth
Sunlight Sensitivity: You suffer Disadvantage on sight-based Perception checks and on attack rolls when you or the object of your attack/scrutiny is in direct sunlight.
Rock Gut: You are capable of deriving sustenance from any organic food source or inorganic substance such as rock. However you may only digest rock and other inorganic substances once per long rest. You have Resistance to Poison while using Rock Gut.
Uz Weapon Training: You have Proficiency in Club, Greatclub, Mace and Sling

Does anyone think I have too many features?

It got many features, none of which is too strong or even all that useful. Rock Gut is "taste this strange thing" 1/day and most things have Darkvision or Low-light Vision either way. The penalty on every single attack while under sunlight is a strong drawback too.

Now it got good. I don't suppose you expect this race to be able to deny its to-hit penalty by closing their eyes and relying on Blindsight, right? Blindsense is more fitting, and works the same way except you still recieve penalties for fighting with your eyes closed. The range is fine too.

There are simple ways to avoid the sunlight sensitivity penalty, but its good flavor.

Really? Dang, one handers are the even better than I thought in this edition.

Reckless attack is a HUGE disadvantage against more than one enemy in CoS. I could end up taking x3 damage which isn't gonna get healed up without using short/long rests.

Reckless attack looks absolutely awesome on paper but without some dedicated love your gonna get smashed in quickly.

GWM is the only way i have to catch up in damage but the -5 to hit really adds up against stronger and stronger enemies.

Sentinel is a good feat but a class shouldn't have to rely on a feat to be good, I only provides me a single attack on my reaction. Granted it's great for stopping enemies from attacking our casters.

I'd also like to add the paladin is capable of taking sentinel as well.

So my barbarian being outshined is more of a gear thing than anything?

In terms of AC my barbarian has almost as much as he can get without 'magical armor'. Half plate is best barbarian armor and the cloak add's 1 AC, I could shield for an extra 2 AC but lose alot more damage and still have less AC than the paladin.

If it's a gear issue i guess i'm okay with that, just seems really unfair to the rest of the party.

Try to recalculate your Paladin as if he had a normal longsword+2

How the fuck many encounters do you run per long rest where 4 isn't enough?

As everyone else has said, he has better gear, but why aren't you using GWM+Reckless Attack to easily add another 10 damage flat before Rage? You have GWM; fucking use it.

Don't be a pussy: if you wanted to have safer damage you should've rolled Battlemaster Fighter. Bear Totem is insurance to allow you to utilize Advantage on every melee attack you make.

Hey not OP but still have a question about melee classes, specifically Paladins outdamaging stuff.

So I'm running a Fallen Aasimar Paladin (level 6, Dueling FS). I'm running Oathbreaker, which my GM agreed to, and next level I'm going to get the thing which adds my Cha bonus to damage I deal. Then after that there's 8th level, which will up my Cha to 20 and get me 3rd level spells. I'm fine with all this.

The thing is, after that I'm thinking about multiclassing to Hexblade Warlock, which:
>Will let me roll for hitting and damage using Cha instead of Str
>Gives me access to Hex AND Hexblade Curse
>Gives me Pact Magic, which recharges after SHORT rests, perfect for free smites
>After 3 levels I'll get the Invocation that adds my Cha bonus to my damage AGAIN.

As a result, my average attack will be +9 to hit, dealing 1d8+1d6+12 damage at level 9 (8OP/1HW), going up to 2d8+1d6+17 at level 13 (11OP/3HW) and thats BEFORE smites, which add 3d8. If I crit, I'll be hitting for 10d8+2d6+17.

My DM has said they're not a huge fan of multi-classing in 5e, but they trust me to not take anything too OP and have said if I do they'll manage. So my question is this: Is this too much? I don't want to derail my game, I really like playing with these guys. At the same time, it makes sense for my Lawful Evil Paladin who wants to be immortal to make dark faustian contracts.

So yeah. Advice?

I simplified both classes without any magic items and best possible AC.

Paladin sword + shield
1d8+3+2=13
20 AC, 76hp
Spells, Heals

Barbarian greatsword
17 AC, 85hp
2d6+4=16
Rage, Reckless attack

Barbarian with shield and longsword
1d8+4=12
19 AC 85hp
This setup seems to be the worst of both IMO as the paladin does more damage without using an ability and has more AC.

Paladin has 15% more ac
Barbarian has 19% more damage
Barbarian has 11% more health

I guess when i break it down without using abilities they seem alot closer but i still think spells and heals outshine rage and relentless attack but it's not as huge as a first thought.

That gear seems to make a HUGE difference.

>Level 13
Shit sorry I mean level 14
>I'd also get Eldritch Blast with bonus Cha damage invocation, overcoming the main weakness of the Paladins, their short range.

To be clear, this is me asking you venerable fa/tg/uys about 5e's mid-level metagame and whether or not I would be dealing too much damage, trivializing encounters and stealing the spotlight from my fellows.

Because of how rage works you can burn through 4 quickly if the battles are smaller and spread out.

Reckless attack doubles against this because your going to take far more damage than you can dish out. Most encounters we face are 4+ enemies which can be downright lethal with advantage against the barbarian even when raging.

Also even a paladin + cleric can't heal 85 hp without burning all of lay on hands and a bunch of spell slots.

Like i mentioned in the first post we are playing curse of strahd so the enemies seem a bit stronger in both HP amount and dealing damage.

I calculated the damage and it looks like the sunsword does 23% more damage than a +2 greatsword which is fucking abusrd.

I guess it's all about that stupid sword.

I've played a barb at low levels, although not at the same level as you. I actually preferred it to Paladin. Paladins need 3 high stats - Cha, Con and either Str/Dex, which means you either have to play a half elf, or you have to go without one of those things. Barbarians meanwhile only need a high STR and CON, and even though enemies get advantage against you your rages last long enough and reduce damage enough that you're essentially invincible.

I once DMed a game with a Bearbarian and a Lore Bard. Lore Bard took heroism and the first thing he did in every combat was cast it on the Barb. They were fucking unstoppable. Maybe get the other players to buff you with similar magic?

How many battles do you normally go through in a day where 4 rages aren't enough? Whenever I've played its always 1-3 fights a day at most before DM says we can Long Rest.

Yeah it seems to be the root of your problems.

Barbarians are also based in 3 stats, Str, Con & Dex. Dex ofcourse only has to be 14(for max AC bonus when wearing medium armor) but it still restricts your points to 15/15 str/con with 2 stats @ 8.

We fight quite a few battles, for example we just did a run where we fought 3 flaming skulls with fireball then proceeded to set off a 30damage AoE trap(hitting the entire party) to another room which we had to run away from 3 more skulls only to run into 6 berserkers and then finally fighting those 3 skulls.

right there is 3 rages and after getting hit by several fireballs my barbarian was dropped to 25% HP.

As this was only quarter to half of the dungeon? yeah.

Why the fuck would you put medium armor on when you have a feature that gives you AC bonus for not wearing it?

How often do you short rest? You need those hit dice man. + A barb shouldn't be worrying about armour at all. Your toughness comes from rage+high hit points, not from high AC. You shouldn't even need ANY armour. You're a meat tank, not an AC tank. Get your CON as high as possible and try supplementing it with the Hardy feat. Also keep in mind DnD is a team game, so after dropping to 25% of your hit points your healer's priorities should be getting your health back up, then worrying about people who aren't regularly getting within arms reach of your enemies.

You sound like you'd have more fun playing a Battlemaster fighter or something similar. Maybe consider that for future campaigns?

Paladins are King of novaing single targets, the sun sword gives him a huge boost. In normal campaigns the barbarian made half way decent can keep up, and deal that higher damage for longer if the paladin burns his smites often. Also stop wearing armor, you have a feature specifically for having higher AC, using GWM mixed with reckless attack and rage bonus damage is what starts making you pumping out high damage.

Unarmored defense = 10 +con mod +dex mod
typical barbarian is going to start with 16 con + 14 dex which means you'd have a total of 15 AC without armor. bumping Con to 20 asap would only net you 17 AC which is the same amount of AC half plate can get you without the need to dump 4 stats into it.

So tell me why would any sane person drop 4 asi's into con just to get the same AC? Especially when str is needed for more than con so you can land those much needed hits.

Medium armor is much better and requires less stats than going unarmored ever will, Especially given that you would have to dump more stats into dex which ultimately doesn't help the barbarian because rage is str based.

TL:DR: Medium armor is ALWAYS better than unarmored defense.

Taking con over str at lower levels is a big mistake. For more HP i'd just take the toughness feat which would give just as much HP as 4 points of con.

I'll keep in mind the need to short rest more often to use those recovery dice.

I'll keep battlemaster in mind for a new character, right now i'm leaning towards heavy armor sorcerer or ranger.

Tell me why would any person worry about pumping ac when they take half damage from everything and have the highest hit points of any class in the game? That's why no one normally has to worry about that, because ac isn't supposed to be important to a barbarian. You could have already pumped your Str to max, maybe bumped con if you're that worried about hp, then focused on other things.

Also keep in mind you fight just as well with one hp as you do full in this edition.

Barbarians aren't about the AC, you need to forget that shit whether its medium armour OR unarmoured defense. High CON gets you more hit points - at 20 CON you get +5 hit points per level, +1 for toughness. A level 10 Barbarian should be sitting at 120-130 hit points MINIMUM, which is doubled when you rage.

This is what we're talking about, dude. Barbarians are meat tanks not armour tanks. Short resting and help from your healers is absolutely critical, especially if you're frequently going up against challenging fights. What others healers does your team have besides the Paladin?

Also as a side note you do realize any hp mod gain is retractive right? So if you bump your con mod from +2 to +3 you add that extra to all levels you've gained.

ALSO If you do, by some miracle, get knocked down to 0 hit points, you have an ability that lets you take a CON test to keep on trucking with one hp, you even pass it automatically the first time if you're a half-orc. CON is WAY more important than extra DEX for AC. Even strength can take a back seat to CON, because your reckless attack means you don't need big bonuses to hit your enemies.

Because dodging attacks = 0 damage taken and it's why AC tanks are awesome. Having higher AC is always good so why wouldn't you want maximum AC? 0 damage > half damage.

A level 8 character only has access to 2 asi's which means getting con to 20 asap or getting str to 20 asap and as many people will tell you killing things faster is always more important.

Toughness feat is also better than straight up 2 con as toughness adds 2 hp per level which equals to 4 con. One could take toughness + STR asi x2 and come out with the exact same HP and better hit/damage.

I'm also talking about level 8 characters here, so any ability higher than 8 is a moot point.

My campaign will end before we get to 10 incase anyone is wondering.

Putting everything into con and recklessly attacking is going to be far more hurtful to your team and trying to kill things faster.

Level 20 characters are entirely different beasts.

FYI HP levels with con being added
1 15
2 10
3 10
4 11
5 11
6 11
7 11
8 12

=91 using averages.

1 15
2 10
3 10
4 10
5 10
6 10
7 10
8 10

=85 using averages

so you gave up 4 asi's that could of been put in STR for 6 hp(12 when raging) 2 AC that could of been made up for by simply using medium armor and a higher con save. Instead of adding +2 to hit and +2 to damage, while also increasing your str checks for grapples and such.

>Is told Barbarians are specifically designed to not be AC tanks
>But muh AC tanks
You do you little autismo, just ignore any advice given and make a two stat dependant class into a three stat one meaning you need to get to a higher level to achieve what people normally do in the same range.

...
You're overthinking the numbers dude. It really sounds like you would have preferred a Battlemaster Fighter or a Paladin, or even a Monk/BladeSinger. Something with high AC and utility instead of a grindy tank.

How'd you end up with 91 HP? With 18 CON it should be:

16 to start
27
38
57

after reading through this thread, I can conclude the problem isn't a difference in power between the barbarian class and the paladin class, nor is it a gear problem. The problem is that OP just hasn't a fucking clue how to play the game.

Everyone now sees the problem: You're not playing your Barbarian game to match the Paladin's game. You're playing the Paladin's game and complaining your class isn't as good at your friend's job as his own Paladin. You're trying to stack AC in a class with features like DR and trading AC for damage. You refuse to use your class features because you insist in playing as another character you're not. You're like a Fighter trying to play as an enchanter and complaining your charisma is too low and you can't cast spells.

Basically, you're playing this like a videogame. D&D isn't just a numbers game where everyone prioritize the same thing. You can do the same job through different ways, in this case, tanking can be done either through AC or damage reductions. Stack that HP up in the skies, favor CON/STR and try to play the class you've picked.

That's a phase everyone goes through when starting D&D. You see AC, then you hear "you don't take ANY damage when the enemy rolls below it!" and you automatically imagine a warrior fighting for hours on end without taking damage because his AC is so damn high. We get it. But fights aren't supposed to last that long, if a troll hits you for 20 damage, you're eating up all of that 20 damage. And you can't take many of those. Either you pick a specific class to pump up your AC to the skies where nothing can viably hit you, pick a backrow class, or you learn the many ways people cope with damage. A Barbarian's way is to eat it up and mitigate with a large pool. A Fighter's might be focusing on trips and CC so your enemies don't get the opportunity to roll against your not-so-high AC.

As a side note, your team looks like children solving problems the uncultured way: throwing your heads against the problem until one of you breaks. Try some tactics, ambush the enemy, scout ahead, carry some alchemical items for neat effects. Anything is better than "I charge the 6 barbarians with my axe".

>AC tanks are awesome

This is true when worried about sources of damage that are avoidable via AC. AC 20 does nothing to help with dragon's breath, a myriad of spell abilities, etc. An extra 2 AC is like having 10% damage reduction against a subset of attack sources. A large subset, but nowhere near as large as the subset a bearbarian's damage reduction applies to.

Bear-totem Barbarians are extremely survivable characters. Paladins make up for this in other areas like having the ability to pump Smite damage out when necessary, spellcasting, and immunity to STDs.

barb = garb

put on some clothes and calm down you fucks

If we're on the topic of bad melee classes, are Soul Knife Mystics as trash as they seem to be? They just...don't seem like they do anything.

>and immunity to STDs.
Not all Paladins take vows of celibacy you know....

>immunity to all diseases as a class feature

I take it my joke was so bad it wasn't even obvious it was supposed to be a joke :(

As explained i started with human variant.
So 16 con to start and grabbing GWM.

Your barbarian is pure HP which is great but that's all they have, They have no utility and they have okay offense. That's it. Your barbarian lives only to soak up damage. Singular purpose.

Any DM will instantly understand your single purpose and know exactly how to exploit it. You guys are taking about smacking our heads straight into the enemies but thinking the DM would do the exact same?

Meanwhile a barbarian who focused on str instead of con can be doing damage while tanking and can even make use of GWM making the barbarian atleast dual purpose.

and this doesn't even bring up the fact that now the healer feels 100% compelled to constantly watch over you like a little child because your just constantly dropping to 0 hp.

I really don't understand why everyone is against a barbarian taking advantage of medium armor which they get and can easily give you more chances to dodge damage completely. You guys keep saying "meat shield meat shield!" when the barbarian can be a dodging meat shield that manages to soak up even more damage.

I don't even know if you understand how a barbarian works in 5e with that statement. The barbarian gives up NO damage unless they go sword and board which i've mentioned is the worst possible barbarian. A two hander barbarian wearing medium armor that STACKS STR has the same AC as a barbarian that STACKS CON but the STR barbarian does much more damage and can go for even MORE damage with GWM.

There is literally no reason not to wear medium armor as a barbarian, None. Unarmored defense REQUIRES DEX to be at 14 and CON to be at 20 to match half plate. This means the barbarian would have to ignore STR ASI's (thats damage and to hit) just to MATCH half plate.

ignoring class features? I can tell you've never used or even seen reckless attack being used in an encounter with over 4 enemies. Gaining advantage against a single enemy isn't worth the rest of the enemies getting advantage against you. Unless your barbarian is constantly getting kills every single round your barbarian is going to get killed extremely fast with all that advantage against you. Especially since your deciding to roll low AC.

Reckless attack has it's place, But just like you've said running right into enemies and attacking isn't smart neither is reckless attacking all the time.

Double HP isn't much if your taking damage all the time.

Bear totem barbarians are designed to suck up damage but that's all they can do without taking feats to make up the damage.

After reading through this thread i can safely conclude that many of these posters haven't even played a barbarian or paladin in 5e, Let alone seen one in action or even read the players hand book for 5e.

I see alot of people instantly jumping to level 20 nonsense that doesn't apply and completely ignoring class proficiency because muh weak ass class feature that doesn't become good until i reach my capstone. Or suggesting the barbarian give groups of enemies advantage just because it's an ability they can use.

Everyone here seems to think the barbarian exists soley to be a meat shield and nothing else which has got to be the most retarded way of seeing a PC. Unless your completely brain dead no person is going to want to control a meat shield with no other purpose, It's boring and there is nothing you can do with it besides throwing your HP away.

should of figured Veeky Forums was just as bad /v/ when it comes to actually playing and knowing things.

You guys continue to play your shitty ass barbarians(that don't use armor and don't stack str) and ill finish my campaign as my not so shitty barbarian and be done with it.

p.s. stay the fuck away from 5e, It's clearly too complicated for you guys to even do simple math.

a character that in combat at lvl 3 can basically double his effective HP is not effective?

I'm playing Dead in thay atm, and my barb 9 fighter 1 has around 200 effective hp(plus the DR from the Racial reaction of the goliath, letting me soak up to 32 extra hitpoints) while raging
it's stupid strong
The problem with barbarian is the berserker, the berserker is absolute trash

barbarians get adv to dex saves, they get adv on initiative checks, brutal critical and a conditional "can't be surprised",
Barbs are effective Damage dealers and effective tanks. They can soak damage, they can give disadvantage if you a creature is not attacking you, it has brutal critical, which is amazing if you dip 3 lvls in fighter, it doesnt need great stats to do effectively. It can choose to hit to adv when it matters or not, since they take half to almost everything

"Paladin is better"
Paladins are amazing, they can deal a lot of damage, they have some genuenly amazing auras, they can cast spells, etc. But they need a lot of gear, and a lot of investment in ASI to be really effective.
Aura of protection is not as good if your CHA isn't 18+. Your spells are meh, you are mostly smiting with those slots anyway. while they can deal a lot of damage and have easy 20 AC, they can't deal with DEX saves effectively, since probably you dump DEX. WIS can fuck you over, unlike Berseker Barb, who are imnune to charm spells and being frightened.

TL;DR Different classes, both are effective in their own way, not all that matters is damage.

>>lots of posts
Calm down, faggot.
1 Pally got better equip, suck it up.
2 You don't play Barb. I understand you fear damage, but this is how your class play. If you are sure playing Barb as a Barb will get your pc killed, than there is no place for a meat-tank melee-damage-dealer in your campaing. I'm sorry.
Try without fear to spam: rage, reckless, gwm, try retrain sentinel (keep medium armor).
Peace out.