Malcador is frequently referred to as the second most powerful human psyker, behind the Emperor.
Magnus was scratch made to be the most beastly powerful pskyer the Emperor could cook up in his gene labs.
Malcador was killed by the golden throne, a device that Magnus supposedly could have use without dying.
My question is, in terms of scale, how much of a difference do you think there is between the two?
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Malcador was confidant he could get the butchers nails out of Angrons head without killing him, and the only thing that stopped him from trying was Angron outright refusing and responding violently to be helped.
Malcador god backhanded across the room by an enraged Lorgar and was like "fine then, fuck you" and psychic powered himself up and fucked off
>Fulgrim once said that Malcador is probably the only person the Emperor trusts implicitly.
Malcador could very well be the Emperors last true friend.
...
>Malcador was confidant he could get the butchers nails out of Angrons head without killing him
Malcador was fucking retarded then. Emps himself couldnt as they had replaced parts of Angron brain meaning that to remove the nails would kill him.
it's it possible that he thought biomancy could fix his brain as he went?
Like yeah, he'd have to learn to walk and talk again but that's a small price next to "he will probably turn on us"
>Implying the Emperor wasn’t just holding off saving Angron and intended to use him the same way you use a hunting dog
>it's it possible
Sure it possible but it just confirming that he's retarded if he things he can do better than the Emperor who is perhaps the greatest biomancer ever who create the Primarchs in the first place.
>My question is, in terms of scale, how much of a difference do you think there is between the two?
I suspect there's very little difference in terms of psychic capability, though each expresses their power in different ways. Magnus would have survived the Throne because he was a Primarch, not because he was any more or less mentally capable than Malcador, I suspect.
Comparing Malcador to Magnus in psychic ability might be akin to comparing a catachan to a space marine.
The marine, by nature, will be stronger to some degree, but what would truly make the difference is their minds.
Malcador, despite being a genius and a powerful psyker, was still only human. Magnus however, was a primarch, and had a far better body and brain, which is extremely important in psychic terms, for not only dealing with the backlash of using psychic powers, but supplying resources and in actually using those powers economically, and to full potential.
Malcador hid a moon in the warp, which exhausted him. Magnus could have used that same energy to hide a moon and maybe a couple of orbital fortresses and then be less affected by the ordeal and recover a lot faster.
That's roughly what I think.
that's actually pretty insightful, thanks.
Okay so if being stronger in mind makes you use you able to use your psychic powers better
If you have the power and not the mental capacity to channel it, you pop light a lightbulb fed too much power.
If you have middling psychic powers and an amazing mind to channel it with you present a dim glow, like a lightbulb in a brownout.
Thats my theory
might explain the hiveminds impossible psychic might.
I don't recognize this pic, where's it from?
I got it from the Wiki
warhammer40k.wikia.com
>Implying the Emperor didn't intend for the heresy
>Make several sons
>Chaos scatters them
>Several of them are fucked up I should probably tutor some of them personally and build up a sense of unity between my sons and myself
>Or I could support their excesses so that they will inevitably degenerate and revolt against me
>Once they revolt I will defeat them and drive them to the furthest reaches of the galaxy
>From then on humanity will have a constant foe so that we never degenerate into decadence like the Eldar did
The Emperor clearly instigated the fall of Angron, Lorgar, Perturabo, and Curze, the unintended ones were Mortarion, Horus, Fulgrim, Alpharius, and Magnus. Horus and Fulgrim were manipulated and seduced by Chaos, Mortarion joined Horus due to friendship and a one-sided grudge, Magnus joined Chaos because Russ is a dangerous retard, and Alpharius depends on the writer.
Implying Malcador isn't the super-shaman and he created the emperor to be his semi-sentient glowing "i'm a fucking golden god" distraction as his whole theme for the past 30,000 years was to watch from the sidelines and habits like that are hard to break.
When "The emperor" went to talk with the Chaos gods, they could tell he wasn't a life form, as he was purely warp energy (he was Malcador's psychic projection, biomanced to have flesh, telepathy-ed to have a 'mind' etc) and thought he was an as-of-yet unborn Chaos god. So they all give him about 1/4 of their power on the promise of dominion over reality and the merging of the warp and the materium by his hand, and the return of their power when he becomes a chaos god.
In that instant he goes from artificial life form pumped up by one supercharged psyker to a being more powerful than any single individual Chaos god, still thinking he is who malcador made him think he was.
Malcador is like "ahh fuck, let's see how this plays out" and his now uncontrollable golden plaything he has been using to control mankind is now actually in charge of mankind and an unknown quantity.
Malcador spends the next few thousand years in over his head, advising the emperor with his wealth of experience trying to help.
dem hips
Magnus is a scrub
git gud.
It could be that while the Emperor was a very great genetic engineer, Malcador was a better Biomancer (As in the psychic discipline). Not more powerful, but more precise and talented. Therefore, he feels he could have saved Angron while the Emps could not, because Malcador is a scalpel, while the Emperor is a Shotgun.
>Malcador was a better Biomancer
Really guys all your insight is pointless Psykers work on plot logic only.
Yet again, read what I said. Malcador could have been a better Biomancer insofar as he could operate with greater precision and control. Difference between trying not to break a glass while wearing gauntlets and surgical gloves.
Stephen Hawkins is smarter than your average surgeon, but I would rather have the average surgeon than Stephen Hawkins give me open heart surgery. Malcador could very well be more specialized towards biomancy than the emperor over other psychic disciplines, he is an immensely powerful psyker in his own right after all, it isn't like we are talking about a generic Eta level psyker being better than the emperor after all.
Emperors Champion for a reason.
Name one feat of biomancy that Malcador does that rivals the creation of the Primarchs of the geneseed of the legions? Shit does he even have any biomancy feats at all? Why are you so against admitting he was wrong saying he could remove the nails? Something thats established would kill Angron?
The creation of the Primarchs is quite clearly described as a cross between genetic engineering, (not psychic powers) and the power of the Chaos Gods. It is not a feat of Biomancy, it is a great skill of lost science and barganing.
As for Malcadors great feat of Biomancy, how about keeping the Emperor alive long enough for him to be interred on the Golden throne. He functionally resurrected the most advanced biological being in the Galaxy. Pretty damn impressive.
Not to mention that he's good enough with biomancy to survive getting slapped across a room by a primarch despite being an old man.
I just thought the whole doing resurrection on a vessel for a God was more impressive than maintaining his own life.
>It is not a feat of Biomancy
You're a fucking idiot.
FFS there is a difference between Biomancy and Genetic Engineering! The Psychic part of their creation came from the Chaos Gods, not the emperor.
>The Psychic part of their creation came from the Chaos Gods, not the emperor.
If you honestly think the Emperor had nothing to do with the warp based aspects of the Primarchs then you are the dumbest person I've had a conversation with that doesnt have down syndrome.
It's the cover from The Silent War.
Direct Quote from Lexicanum as to the creation of the Primarchs
"First, the Emperor extracted a subset of His own DNA to act as the foundation for a pure, undifferentiated Primarch gene-stock template. The pure Primarch gene-stock was then further differentiated into the 20 separate genetic templates that would serve as the individual Primarchs' genomes."
No psychic powers were used in the creation of the bodies of the Primarchs. What was done with Psychic powers was the molding of their souls, a very impressive feat, but not a feat of Biomancy. In order to do this, the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods for new abilities he did not have.
Thats not from the lexicanum its fro the 40k wiki? An un-sourced claim from some random person on the internet.
You're claiming the Emperor knowingly let the Gods stuff his greatest creation with warp juice with no oversight? Fucking prove it.
"The Emperor along with several other Perpetuals such as Alivia Sureka traveled to Molech on a one-way spacecraft. There, they found a gateway into the Realm of Chaos which the Emperor entered, making a bargain with the Dark Gods and becoming imbued with new powers and the knowledge to create the Primarchs."
Its in Vengeful Spirit
"According to Ingethel the Ascended, the Primarchs were created by the Emperor with the aid of forbidden sciences and arcane lore derived from the Warp. Eldrad Ulthran also states that the Emperor utilized dark powers to construct the Primarchs. It is speculated the Primarch's were imbued with energies and knowledge that the Emperor gained in a Warp Portal on Molech."
All warp/psychic shit that affected the Primarchs came from the Chaos Gods.
>and the knowledge to create the Primarchs.
So the Emperor did create the Primarchs then? And he did it himself just with knowledge and power to do so? So not as you claimed at all then?
Here have a real source that isnt just copy pasted from a wiki.
>You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade.
>The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power. With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons.
>But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken. The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful.
>The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them.
You're so fucking retarded. Admit you're wrong then fuck off.
Not the other guy, but doesn't that information come from The Chaos Gods, who aren't exactly a reliable source?
I never denied the Emperor made the Primarchs. I said the making of the Primarchs was not a feat of Biomancy.
I said his own natural powers were not responsible for the Psychic elements. Since the Emperor is aware of and can use Biomancy, Biomancy, the Psychic discipline was not used to make the Primarchs bodies. What was used was powers directly given to the Emperor by the Chaos Gods. Also, it doesn't change the fact that Malcador basically resurrected the Emperor, with his psychic abilities.
Yeah, but he then used it as well, so its a bit irrelevant to the argument.
Source? This sounds like bullshit.
Fair nuff.
>I said the making of the Primarchs was not a feat of Biomancy.
You have ZERO evidence for this claim. You attempted to argue that the Chaos Gods participated with the creation of Primarchs
>The Psychic part of their creation came from the Chaos Gods
Something that is demonstrably false that you'd know if you actually read the sources to the info you ripped directly from the wiki.
>What was used was powers directly given to the Emperor by the Chaos Gods.
Learn to read
>and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery.
He was given knowledge of how to create them not power. They are a mixed of genetic manipulation and warp powers. Sounds a lot like biomancy doesn't it?
>Also, it doesn't change the fact that Malcador basically resurrected the Emperor, with his psychic abilities.
>Oh fuck I'm totally wrong
>Lets jump to this other side point that isn't relevant
Neck yourself.
You do realise this whole argument was that Malcador had a great feat of Biomancy. The whole, what does the creation of the Primarchas fall under is entirely separate to this statement. Also, Biomancy is the direct manipulation of the Body with Psychic power. Genetic Engineering with Ancient technology (As seen in the First Heretic) is not Biomancy. Also, how is it wrong to say that the Chaos Gods had a hand in making the Primarchs, when they literally gave the Emperor the Knowledge and powers to do so? Also, the reason we know the Emperor received new powers from Moloch, is because Horus received similar powers, through a similar deal. (except Horus asked for the power to defeat the Emperor, not make the Primarchs)
That can't possibly be canon; it implies that people from the Imperium are caring and competent, and people from Chaos have like actual flaws. So not how things work now.
who is hawkins? do you mean Hawking?
>The creation of the Primarchs is quite clearly described as a cross between genetic engineering, (not psychic powers) and the power of the Chaos Gods.
You said this. You have failed to back it up with any evidence and have been proven wrong but refuse to admit it.
If the only thing you had claimed was that Malcador's final sacrifice was a powerful feat of biomancy then we would be talking about that instead.
>Genetic Engineering with Ancient technology (As seen in the First Heretic) is not Biomancy.
LEARN TO READ
>with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery.
>AND PSYCHIC SORCERY
>SORCERY
>AS IN NOT JUST GENETIC ENGINEERING
>how is it wrong to say that the Chaos Gods had a hand in making the Primarchs
Nice attempt to rephrase you argument. Sadly for you you retardation is right there for me to quote.
Powers given by the Chaos Gods
Or by another name, Powers, that are of the Chaos Gods.
As for the Psychic Sorcery, you admit it came from the Chaos Gods. As far as I am aware, Biomancy is fairly well known, and the Emperor is able to use it. If what was used was just Biomancy, he would not need to go to the Chaos Gods for more powers.
If Biomancy was used to make the bodies of the Primarchs, why have genetic records and containment tubes for the bodies as they grow? Surely with Biomancy, the Emperor can sculpt the body fully formed. I am saying the Psychic part of their creation is not Biomancy.
>implying anyone could ever dream of possibly doing anything at all better than the emperor
gw's greatest success was to make imperium fans drink the kool aid harder than any imperium character ever could
This is better lore than anything BL would ever put out.
He's right, you know.
The Custodes were Biomance'd into existence. The Primarchs and Marines were just super advanced gene-upgrades and Chaos fuckery.
>he would not need to go to the Chaos Gods for more powers.
LEARN TO READ YOU FUCKING RETARD
>and the gods granted him the lore to forge them
THE LORE TO FORGE THEM
LORE
LORE
Not power as you claim ffs. If you want to disagree find a source. You shitty inccorect opinions are getting boring to respond to.
As for you retarded biomancy claim just because he had to learn how to do it its suddenly not biomancy? Do you have anything other than an inability to admit you were wrong to back this up?
Seriously if you reply doesnt have some form of quote or source I'm just going to discount you as a troll.
In Chapter Fourteen of Fulgrim, Eldrad says ‘I do not know for sure, but I believe that whatever dark forces his Emperor employed in the creation of these primarchs renders many of them as little more than spectres in the warp."
If the Emperor had not used powers given from the Chaos Gods, Eldrad, being one of the most knowledgeable Psykers in existence, would have said "powers", not "Dark powers"
Biomancy is not a "Dark Power"
>I do not know for sure
I rest my case. You are literally retarded.
eldrad says "I do not know for sure," meaning he does not know what is making the Primarchs hard to Scry, not that he is not sure if the powers are "Dark" or not. Learn sentence structure before making that argument. The "I do not know for sure" is directed at the subject of the Primarchs being "Spectres in the Warp"