2017

Tell me about this Dungeon World. Is it more OSR?

It's sort of OSR-adjacent. It hits many of the same themes, but comes at them from an entirely different (narrative-oriented) direction.

By different direction I mean it's mechanically not OSR, it's a narrative "story game" if you will, but it's all about dungeon crawling in a deadly world where everything's trying to kill you. It does away with the level 1-3 "lol you're dead" part, and essentially starts you at as a midlevel character who's reasonably tough, and then characters expand horizontally, gaining new cool tricks, but staying at roughly the same level of HP as a starting character.
The core mechanic, from Apocalypse World, is all about building escalating tension that rises towards a climactic result. (Good or bad)

Depends on what you mean by that.

If you want to have a super tactical survival dungeon quest, hell no. It might be a nice idea but DW isn't about that.

If you mean something gonzo and pretty much action-y, not the chore of "roll to hit, roll to damage, next!", while being relatively simple I'd say yes. The real difference might be in the fact that everything you do mechanically is higly fictionalized and has direct consequences (well, at least it should).

So if there's a zombie in front of me, I keep rolling hacknslash until one of us is out of HP or something else happens?

Basically. It's basically whatever the GM wants to do too. It's a load of narrative wank, there's nothing new to the game. It's basically apocalypse world except kludging d&d mechanics onto it. It sells more than the original cause more people like heroic fantasy than post apoc. It's really just kinda mediocre but reddditors shill it to no end so it just ends up annoying. Also the devs are huge nu males who did the whole thing as a money grab. Vincent should have used them.

Zombie

Horde
Bite (d6 damage); 11 HP; 1 Armor

Close

When there’s no more room in Hell Instinct: Braaaaaains

Attack with overwhelming numbers
Corner them
Gain strength from the dead, spawn more zombies

Oh no, even using only the zombie moves, failing to kill them is gonna be pretty hectic.

>playing a cuck game with no character customization because you are a brainlet who considers basic addition "number crunching"

I want to play a swordmage who dual worlds axes in dungeon world. Can I do that OP? Will the RAW support it? Cause I can in 5e and 5e has less addition than dungeon world (1d20 + skill bonus instead of 2d6 plus mod which is three number total)

See at least in AW the moves actually worked as story nudes. When you a 6- thing got worse and the MC moves against you. Combat was over quick and was very gritty. Now by trying to encroach on d&d territory the game not only has to account for d&d players expectations but also the fact that its core mechAnic is not built for heroic fantasy. So it takes away the good parts and turns combat into the same shit as d&d but with fewer hp, whereas in AW harm took people down fast and getting into fights would fuck you up.

Give me one thing that I can do in Dungeon World that I can't do in D&D. Cause I can give you the converse:
>play a dwarf bard

If your DM is a lazy faggot, yeah. But he ought to be interspersing the straight combat with other moves to keep the situation moving and changing.
It helps if your DM has played other PbtA games, and doesn't just try to run it like a 1:1 copy of D&D.

Not having to deal with autistic rules, mostly.

I don't particulary like DW, and this actually makes me hate more this kind of bad bait.

C U R R E N T Y E A R

>dwarf bard

Jesus, this PDF's been around for years now. Stop with the whining already.

Besides, racial moves are probably the easiest thing to add to a sheet after putting your own name down. Just ask your group "what makes a Dwarf Bard different from other races' bards?" and hash out something reasonable together, and you're good.
This is the kind of basic homebrew that you should be doing anyway to fit the game to the world you've devised.

Then again, you're probably one of those faggots who whines about the lack of dwarf bards in Basic/Advanced D&D too.

I'm running Strike!

With the skill system modified to be more PbtA.

While I don't necessarily disagree, DW has the same pitfall as Fate or other narrative games: everyone have to be creative in the group, which is doable, but rare, especially in random groups.

You can't dual wield.

Let's be real, even if PBTA is fun, Dungeon World is a massive sack of crap that people shouldn't play. The system is a shit facsimile of Apoc World. I'd rather play fucking Monsterhearts.

Dungeon World is a bastardization of both D&D and AW, an effortless cashgrab for those who still have nostalgia fron the "good old days".

No one is going to break their houses and burn their old books, why should anyone take this fake game seriously?

The worst part IMO is that it doesn't even do justice to the Apoc World system. Apoc World is a good and fun game that some people have used to make other good and fun games. Dungeon World is a bad and poorly-designed game that entirely misses the point of AW in an attempt to make a less-good DnD experience.

>a less-good DnD experience
By that, do you mean a D&D experience which is less good than AW or a D&D experience which is less good than D&D proper?

I rather play 13th Age or Pathfinder. DW isn't crunchy enough nor balanced enough (which isn't an option, it's actually a design philosophy that they admit when it comes to combat). It's fun in small one shots or short adventures but anything longer than a few sessions and it gets old quick.

>homebrew pdf
>same as the core rules
Or they could have just structured the rules to let me play what I want. AW restricted you to strong archetypes but they didn't have race to consider. What Dungeon World did is equivalent to if Apocalypse World gave a gunlugger an extra move for being black.

>do you mean a D&D experience which is less good than AW or a D&D experience which is less good than D&D proper?
Both. AW was good at gritty post apocalyptic drama and intercharacter drama. Vincent also see out a really great "implied setting" with nothing made solid. The DW devs just ripped off all that shit, made redddit think it was new, then put d&d mechanics like hit points that directly go against the tension the harm- resulting moves are supposed to create. On and they got rid of the roll +harm move, too, which was one of the best parts. Oh, and all the important choices, especially for what happens in single combat and such in AW. Do you inflict terrible harm or take little harm yourself? Do you care more about surviving or hurting your hated for? Dungeon World would be done if it had added to and built on the pbta system, but it adds nothing. It's just D&D mechanics slapped into apocalypse world and the only reason it's good is because of what Vincent Baker created. The devs did pretty much zero actual game design work.

All these salty neckbeards saying shit because DW* touches their fantasy heartbreaker and trash it make me want play it again.

*=which isn't exactly the best PBTA, true dat. Fellowship is way better, even in fantasy. But what was stated before is pretty self-evident.

OP is astroturfing for PbtA hate but it's based on truth.

Dungeon World is a broken hack that misses the point of the Moves and retains all the garbage sacred cows of D&D. Apoc World is a more pure game.

ITT: unimaginative, salty DMs who have to refer to a d100 table that tells them what happened after a PC attacks a goblin.

Use your imaginations ffs

>he doesn't even use d02
Your imagination isn't half as big as mine.

It's not about not having imagination. It's about the fact that DW misses the best parts of PbtA games and barely gets the basics of the DnD games it's trying to imitate.

Yeah, basically this. If you're going to use DW, just gut all the combat mechanics and replace them with the Fellowship pbta moves. Get rid of inflated HP counts and such. What a waste of mindshare these fuckers created.

>an effortless cashgrab for those who still have nostalgia fron the "good old days"
Nah, DW is made by a bunch of hacks who are trying to appeal to the "Nat 20 so crazy! xD" crowd that is the current desired demographic, but they have no sense of proper game balance or structure.

>two "salty" posts back-to-back
Sure is samefag in here. How much you getting paid per post?

Because Torchbearer is superior desu.

>It's about the fact that DW misses the best parts of PbtA games and barely gets the basics of the DnD games it's trying to imitate.
If you think about it, that fits right with the spirit of 3.5.

But I can do awesome shit in D&D. Why should I swap systems everytime someone had a problem with D&D?

If you want to play a railroad adventure game then yeah, Dungeon World is better than 3.PF or 5e. On the other hand if you want to play real D&D, sandbox OSR is where it's at.

DW is nothing like OSR and it's actually hypermodern in design.

It wants to label itself as OSR because that's kinda popular nowadays, but in reality it's not. It's just hipsters who don't play OSR (=old D&D) spewing buzzwords.

True, but 3.5 is such a cluster fuck once it was over that you hardly know anyone who wants to revisit it. Like I said before, I rather play 13th Age or Pathfinder over DW and DnD 5e.

Because gurps exists and is far superior.

>True, but 3.5 is such a cluster fuck once it was over that you hardly know anyone who wants to revisit it.
>I rather play Pathfinder

What does this have to do with dungeon world? There are plenty of other systems that aren't number crunching nightmares. If I'm going to use a system, it should enhance the role-playing experience in some way. So...how does DW enhance the experience.

>But I can do awesome shit in D&D.
But you have to make so many rolls go it whereas in DW you can do whatever you want on a 10+ because the moves are even more loose than AWs.

It's even better when DW fans get butthurt and pretend pbta shouldn't have situational modifiers when Vincent Baker uses them in his online published example of AW combat. I wonder how the guy really feels about the bastardization of his system.

I know, but I feel like Pathfinder isn't quite that bad. But that's like saying a pistol to the head isn't as bad as a shotgun at point blank range.

>But you have to make so many rolls go it whereas in DW you can do whatever you want on a 10+ because the moves are even more loose than AWs.
Nothing in DW implies "you can do whatever you want on a 10+". Sure, if your GM allows you to come up with impossible shit and do it, but that applies to D&D as well.

Basically this. A 10+ in Dungeon World is basically like the middle ground of a Nation d20 and a normal success in DnD. And many of the DW moves tell you what you can do with a 10+ so they limit you more than a DnD Nat 20 does in many cases. I would almost say you can do way more stuff in DnD than DW from the RAW.

I've had fun playing both. And Apocalypse World shits all over DW.

I don't like success at a cost, sudden complications with plans, and nonstop danger and excitement all the time. This is encouraged and advised all throughout the game. It doesn't fit in with what my table needs.

>I want my games to have random pointless failure, be predictable, and be boring and safe

lol

You can though.

>If you don't want my retarded extreme your only other choice is an equally retarded extreme
Why does it seem like the only systems DW players have ever experienced is DW and 3.PF?

Because it's accurate for a large part of the player base.

>Because I'm running Barbarians of Lemuria instead.
Oh man, I came in here just to post this.

>redditors
>shill
>nu males

And the best part is, user actually thought we'd take his post seriously!

Is AW worth checking out? My close group of friends is really into Fallout and post-apoc media, and I'm very into lethal combat and survival-based campaigns; should we give it a chance?

That hasn't been my experience. I've played DW at 4 RL tables and 3 online games and most people seem to have started with DnD 4e, didn't like 5e and came to DW because PbtA is like 2014 FATE and DW has some familiar elements with the crowd. I am one of the few people I know who played Pathfinder.

Yeah try it.
Think of it like an episode of The Walking Dead or a similar action drama. Whatever the characters choose to do is what drives the story.
Whoever DMs it, make sure you Look Through Crosshairs, view everyone as expendable.

Nice, thanks. You think the 2e core rulebook gives enough DM advice to run a game? The only other Vincent Baker book I read was Dogs in the Vineyard, and that one had a ton of useful DM advice, both specific for the game and in general.

I prefer Fate for narrative focused fantasy RPGs. I find it does sword and sorcery really well.

The survival isn't really the focus (tough scarcity is), tough you can easily focus on that optionally. It's a game about interpersonal relationships - you are the big guys in the town, and you have divergent goals. The funny thing is that the conflict(s) emerge organically, you don't really start with those.

Oddly enough a good example of how it might feel is more Black Lagoon than Mad Max. And not for the action, that might or might be not really present. But the crew there kinda gives you an idea.

sorry, we prefer role-playing games
and i don't even like D&D much

>You are damaged in combat mostly if either you attack shit in melee and the result says the other guy deals damage or if the other guy at his turn hits you (uses magic, whatever).
what are the combat tactics in DW are like?

There aren't pre-fixed tactics, aside from "maybe the 9 STR wizard isn't the best idea for a tank".

>Nah, DW is made by a bunch of hacks who are trying to appeal to the "Nat 20 so crazy! xD" crowd that is the current desired demographic, but they have no sense of proper game balance or structure.
This is true too, yes.

Hack'n'Slash or Volley over and over again until one side dies.

Because FATAL is the only thing Dungeon World is "superior".

If something is easy it stop being awesome.

>a wild superior system appears

This what DNDfags actually try to convince themselves of.

Also, it's pretty clear this board is full of subhuman autists because the meme now is "DW is shit" whilst people can't even say why AW is better.

Because you call something awesome it doesn't mean anybody will buy your shit. Stop lying to yourself teenager.

>Stats
AW's stats each represent a different and distinct approach (with force, composure, smarts, persuasion and weird shit) to any given situation and are tied to one or two of the game's basic Moves each.
DW's stats are blindly copied from D&D with three of them (Str, Dex and Con) covering the same approach and one Move being shared by all the stats, making the separation between somewhat pointless.

>Basic Moves
AW's basic Moves categorize almost every genre-appropriate action the characters can take, taking intent into account, tie them to the stats and provide interesting consequences for them that significantly change the situation they arose in and push the story/game forward, no matter the roll result.
DW's basic Moves that are not just copied wholesale from Apocalypse World are modified or created so that they often fail to produce interesting consequences and for many 10+ results just outright solve problems without giving any new impetus. And then there's the aforementioned Move that is shared by every stat and can apply to almost every possible action in addition another Move, completely missing the point of Moves.

>Experience
AW awards experience for rolling one of your two highlighted stats. Stats are highlighted at the start of each session, one by the GM and the other one by another player. Since stats each represent different approaches, what this means is that you get rewarded for doing what the group wants to see you doing.
DW awards experience for rolling a 6-. What this means is that you get rewarded for ignoring your strengths and intentionally flubbing calculable risks, giving the whole game an unintentional shade of slapstick.

I didn't call anything awesome.

Nope. Dex is pretty different from Str, in their moves. One could make the point about Cos, tough.
In general there is no reason to suppose stats needs to correspond to approaches.

Basic moves are reasonably different actually, and if you think a 10+ resolves any problem in DW but doesnt' in DW you simply don't know the games. Discern Realities is MORE limited in scope than Open Your Mind to the Maelstrom if anything.

I can see the 6- critique, tough I don't think the game really pushes you to failure. It's too lethal for that.

I think he's right, I experienced that directly in a game of DW I played, every time we Defied Danger is was always just choose your highest stat since the result is the same no matter how you do it.

Also side note, since I hogged the spotlight I ended up with tons of EXP chips while the other players had barely any.

You didn't play DW in this case.

>denying problems because the other person is playing it "wrong"
I thought this was a Dungeon World thread, not a Pathfinder thread.

Does DW mean Dungeon World because that's what we played.

You don't "choose a stat" when you defy danger. You describe how you're defying the danger and based on that and if the move seems plausible, the GM will tell you what stat will be used.

...

AW and most of the PbtA games are about people in hard situations working together and against either other to survive. Like someone said before, it's like an episode of The Walking Dead. DW, However, drops this element to create Big Damn Hero stories, except that there isn't much different between a level 1 character and a level 10 character as your character grows horizontal in power. It doesn't do anything with PbtA engine but use the look. And it doesn't add anything special to the fantasy role-playing game either.

I like how anyone who disagrees with your tastes is "autistic". Maybe people don't enjoy the same stuff as you do. Doesn't mean they are wrong, just means you are different from the crowd. So stop being a bitch and accept that.

He said "How do you want to defy danger", so I always said I though it out with my CON.

That's not how it works. You actually are playing the game wrong.

When you act despite an imminent threat or suffer a calamity, say how you deal with it and roll. If you do it

by powering through, +Str
by getting out of the way or acting fast, +Dex
by enduring, +Con
with quick thinking, +Int
through mental fortitude, +Wis
using charm and social grace, +Cha

>say how you deal with it and roll. If you do it
>by enduring, +Con

Fuck off.

It's not for the player to decide whether their attempt at enduring for example a hill giant's maul will result in anything other than getting flattened to the ground.

If you tell the GM "I will stand ground and endure the blow" he can just go "alright, so you stand there doing nothing while the giant smacks you, take d12 damage."

By not doing anything to put your character out of harms way you just gave the GM a golden opportunity to use a hard move against you.

That's what people say about D&D, too. What if the DMs are just ordinary mortals and every system is shit?

>I defy danger by enduring.
>lol no u don't u get hurt
I quote you the verbatim rule and you still pull some non sequiter out of your ass just to be contradictory.
Literally fuck off retard. Un fucking real.

>Give me one thing that I can do in Dungeon World that I can't do in D&D.
tactical combat, apparently

what's the tactical advantage/disadvantage to doing so?

I pull out the rule where the GM gets a golden opportunity if the player ignores an incoming threat. Staying still while a giant is hitting you with a maul is not dealing with the threat.

It's in the rules.

I'm not saying the rules or the game is good, but that's how it works. The game requires a GM who knows what he's doing, otherwise it's the worst RPG ever. With a good GM it's only mediocre.

>ITT: unimaginative, salty DMs who have to refer to a d100 table that tells them what happened after a PC attacks a goblin.
we don't do that because we're unimaginative, we do that because stripping something out of both the control of the players and the GM opens up space for tactics.

and that's why PbtA will never be a true competitor to traditional RPGs.

>I use by-the-book move.
>lol no ur move dussent count
What part of fuck off don't you understand. Fucking idiot.

Holy shit you are literally playing the game wrong and then saying the game is bad because of it.
You don't choose a stat and roll it. Fucking stupid D&D babies with their "I'll roll perception" mindset.
That's not how it works, retard.
Here's how it's supposed to work:
>(GM)A goblin is about to stab you with it's sword, what do you do?
>(you)Durr, I defy danger with my highest stat!
>(GM)No you rollplaying idiot, what do you -DO-?
>(you)Hurr I will defy danger by enduring, can I roll +Con now?
>(GM)You are a retard, what do you DO. What ACTION do you take as a PERSON to not get stabbed?
>(you)Fine, I'll dodge out of the way
>(GM) Okay, so roll Defy Danger with +Dex
>(you)But GM I wanted to roll +Con!
>(GM)But your character dodged out of the way to defy the danger. Maybe if you thought of something else you would have rolled a differently
>(you)This game sucks! I want to go back to D&D!

DW is not complicated at all but even simple shit is beyond you retards. I haven't even played DW but even clear from the rule book what you're supposed to do.
I wouldn't even want to play D&D with you retards, you sound like the idiots who say "I roll perception" instead of explaining how and where you'll search for something.

Seems like you haven't read the rules.