Getting new players to read the books

In my experience, this has been the way every RPG goes, and even some wargames.
This experience of yours, op, is not the exception. It's the norm.
In fact, I'm even learning that players don't want to do chargen anymore either, especially if there isn't an electronic program to do it for you, either. They want to pick some premades from a pile and go.

RTFM doesn't happen. Period.

>GM wants you to read 13-14 pages
>Faggot doesn't read
>Faggots opinion "Gee GM this campaign setting is no different than any other"
>Faggot opinion #2 "How should I have known they were allies with our faction? There was no info on it."

my players even made me research and build their stupid concept characters for years, until I told them to either read the books or gtfo

basically, you have to tell them that you're not willing to put in that much work, if they're not doing their part.
if they're adults, they should understand that

also - it's really important for you to not make empty threats. if your players say that they'll read their shit and they didn't - just stand up and leave.

usually they'll talk things through with each other and come to the conclusion that they want to continue playing the game - "even" if it means to do some homework

there might be one or two leechers who won't come back, but that's for the best anyway

This was posted some time in the last hour or so.

Players like this literally exist.
>Teach me the game as we go, or I'm not interested

I can not even.

I hope that person is making shit up just to make more drama in the thread. I'm hoping this isn't real.

to be fair - for absolute noobs (never played before) I like to explain everything step by step in the first session

roleplaying is complex enough as it is - throwing a dozen books at them before they even know if they like the game, isn't really helpful

however - once they are intrigued and would like to properly play a campaign and all, I communicate with them that they must read at least the core book and whatever additional stuff comes up in the campaign

just play rule-light, only virgins have time for this shit. If you want a game to be like a computer game, just play dragon age. If you want to have a fun tabletop experience, dispose of this autism

Insult their intelligence and then recruit new players.

>to be fair - for absolute noobs (never played before) I like to explain everything step by step in the first session
Well yeah, but that's not the same as teaching them a system. That's just reactively telling them what to do as the game goes on.

It's supposed to give them a feel for the game, so they'll know whether they're interested in learning the system.

If they have no intention of studying the rules on their own, and show up completely unprepared to every session, expecting you to hold their hand throughout the whole experience, they're more hassle than they're worth.

I would read the book if it wasn't poorly formatted. I don't need the book which I already purchased to sell me the game with obtrusive artwork and in-lore explanations for mechanics I need to play the game. That shit is annoying as fuck and I get exhausted trying to find anything; and often times, the most important shit is mentioned in one little fragment in a larger chapter about unimportant shit so you have to slog through it all again to find it again.
If it just cut the fat and gave me what I needed to know in order of how frequently they appear, then I would be set and it wouldn't be a colossal pain in the ass to look something up mid-game.

When I first started playing RPGs, I was part of a group that seemed to have only skimmed the 3.5 books. I remember one day I decided to actually read the players handbook, and started discovering basic rules like the 5 foot step, which pissed the DM off because he didn't know about it and didn't like it.

Read the SRD, then.

"Let's make rpgs more accessible and more inclusive," they said. "It will improve the hobby," they said.
Look at these retards who can't even read a book.

>Let's make rpgs more accessible and more inclusive
>they said
>It will improve the hobby
>they said
Who's 'they'?

RPGs are a product like any other. I can't really blame 'them' for trying to move more units and secure an income for a full company's worth of employees and their families.

I won't play a game or join a group if I think quality has been sacrificed on the altar of inclusiveness, but I still don't blame 'them' for playing the free market game sensibly.

the real problem seems to be that the more complex systems like pathfinder (and even d&d5e for that matter) aren't what some players want to play

it's certainly what most gamemasters want to play - because gamemasters generally have the "gm gene", which means that they enjoy reading systems, coming up with builds and browsing 3rd party stuff ... however, only few players share this gene

there are some lightweight easy to use rpg systems around, but no gamemasters running them

Why are you telling us this and not your group? If their behaviour is grounds for ending the campaign, I think they might be interested. If not, well, seems like your campaign was shit anyway

>the real problem seems to be that the more complex systems like pathfinder (and even d&d5e for that matter) aren't what some players want to play
This makes it sound like 'inferior' players just can't handle 'superior' systems like 3.PF, which is a laughable assumption.

I haven't said anything about superiority

I'm only saying that people enjoy different degrees of complexity, there's nothing wrong with that

But either liking or disliking 3.PF isn't just about complexity.

There are objective design flaws.

my point isn't about specific systems like 3.PF

I'm talking about the degree of complexity many systems have. races, classes, feats, abilities, spell lists, different dice, skills, complex rules like AoO or 5ft-steps ... and so on

all that stuff is great, but it obviously requires a significant amount of work to get into.

unlike most other hobbies, the problem with rpgs is that they require a gm. the gm will almost always be someone who like to immerse himself in complex stuff and therefore dislikes running more simplistic games.

players that want to play more simple stuff can't find any available games and often end up in pf or 5e sessions they don't really want to be in, which is bad for everyone involved.

>13 pages is too much
>make it rules light
Be less retarded.

Your gripe is exactly with 3.PF style games. Pic very much related, dumbfuck.

RTFM or GTFO. Those are the options.

People don't read video game manuals anymore. Today is the age of tutorial levels. I've embraced this, now I only give my players the information they need when they need it. It's been working out okay so far.

Something like 3% of adults will ever actually read a book once they're out of school. Maybe that seems unfair or something, to you, but that's just reality.

That cannot possibly be true. What was the sample size? What population were they getting data from?

show, dont tell is storytelling 101

>show, dont tell is storytelling 101

If I wanted to tell a story I'd have written a book, you idiot. I'm trying to run a game.

He's right, tho.

Unless it concerns character creation, most of that pre-written information can be shared during the game as well. What's so hard about saying "You meet with [faction], your long-time allies"?

And if he made a character that is hostile towards that faction for no reason, then you should've warned him about that during char creation.

>And if he made a character that is hostile towards that faction for no reason, then you should've warned him about that during char creation.

>Guy makes a PC hostile to Faction X because Faction X killed his father or something
>Remind him that the game is about working for Faction X to get jobs (at first, I wouldn't stop them from leaving later or anything).
>he says "Nah man it'll be cool. It'll make for some interesting roleplay."
>Session opens with them rolling up to faction X's HQ to get jobs to do, as their PCs have done in the past
>The second they get inside, Guy pulls his gun out and opens fire on everyone in HQ, screaming "DIE FAGGOTS DIE FAGGOTS DIE FAGGOTS."
>He misses every attack, security beats him to death.
>"What the fuck why did you kill me."
>He stays enraged and confused the entire session as to why the people he was trying to murder killed him.

> if he made a character that is hostile towards that faction for no reason, then you should've warned him about that during char creation.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE HANDOUT WAS FOR

Or do I have to sit through a 30 minute phone call for each person?

Yes, you can try to integrate it, and that'd be good DMing. In your example DM did good, but the player continued to be an ass.

You sounded like the issue came up during play.
You also sound like you put too much stuff in your handout - why do you need 13-14 pages for?

I've never bothered with handouts, unless I was running a homebrew setting, and then I'd limit players to a specific region and probably limited race selection the first time I was running it.

Hey, I'm not the GM, I'm just someone noting that if the players don't read the handout, you coming back and saying "I should have warned him about this in character creation" is a pretty dick move.

>13 pages? AIN'T NO BODY GOT TIME FO DAT!
It's time to...
Sudoku!

Okay, I kinda put that wrong. I don't do big handouts, like I said, so I don't mind much if something like that happens and am okay just warning them about it.

But to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised or angry if I made a huge handout and players didn't read it. Keep it short and relevant, and try to present as much as you can during the game, not before it.
Nobody likes movies starting with a massive wall of exposition.

...

>join 5e game
>have a 2 hiur commute every day
>Read the book from A to Z 4 times before the first session and make several sticky notes at relevant points in the book, as well as special attention markers to anything critical to my class
>Basically end up as a CoGM because even the GM doesn't know 50% of the rules.
It turned out well enough, all things considered.

I was just happy to get some easy reading material after 5 years of law school.

Somalia.

Honestly, my players dont read the book either and Ive been playing with this group for over 2 years. We usually just have a session 0 and I make them read the relevant parts then, sometimes as a group.

If I provide materials beforehand, I still have a session 0 and show up with a copy or two of the materials and make anyone who didnt read it, awkwardly read it while the rest of us goof off.

Now that's just outright wrong.

About 70% of the adults who leave school will be reading books; because they are the educated ones, and the majority of adults in Somalia never even enter school to leave it.

Why are you on Veeky Forums?

If they can't be trusted to spend 2-4 hours reading and comprehending some basic rules how the fuck can you trust them to dedicate at least four full hours a week to playing the game itself.

15 minutes of reading are too much work for you?

I started running a new game last week. DND 3.5 because I am cancer. I had two people that had played 5e before turn up and one completely new player.

The new player had read the entire core rules and taken it all in as well as the entirety of Tome of Battle and a Warblade Handbook.

I have never been so proud of a player.

5e is really rules light though, unless by rules light you mean freeform, it's also the most popular RPG on the market currently, towering above everything else, unless the RPGs in your area are different for some unusual reason.

Pretty much this, player manual ain't even made of full written pages, and written big enough so that It'll take the average saturday nap to be read. Who can't do that at least once for something you'll do every week or so ?
Maybe the problem is more one of memorisation ? like those who refuse to read are those for whom it'll be least profitable ?

The rulebook is 300 pages long, it is not rules light game by any definition of the word. A rules light game fits on a single page.

>like those who refuse to read are those for whom it'll be least profitable ?
Most people find it quite daunting to read through 300 pages. It might not be anywhere close to actual 300 pages, but for anyone not uses to it, it will feel that way. And rules are generally not as engaging to read as a story would be.

I am used to getting 200 pages of small font, no pictures, reading, that needs to be done in 4 days. Which is also about rules.

Another problem with the rules is tue flip flop between being a book about rules, and a book about fluff. It can get annoyingly distracting reading about rules, and suddenly this huge block of fluff text breaks the flow, and ince it is done, we are straight back to dry rules. That was enough to confuse even me.

>People don't read video game manuals anymore.
People hardly ever read manuals even when they were a thing. That's why they've been phased out. I mean the RTFM initialism predates the internet.

Rules book writers really need to get better about condensing the essential rules of play into a single short section of the book. Anyone who has played RPGs for any length of time knows you won't need to read the book cover to cover to understand how to play, and I don't think I've ever seen an experienced player actually reading a rule book in the order it's written.

Yes, this is a righteous complaint. Those books are not made to be read throughoutly, but consulted.

I only do games from universes I am familiar with or that already have canon content ; as the fluff is too often unsufferably mediocre, I usually read it in diagonal or not at all. Am I guilty ?

It isn't 300 pages because there are bunch of charts and tables that:
a) repeat already know formula so it isn't hard to go through them
b) they can be read later - like items, weapons, armors etc.

& there are bunch of illustrations.

But for the sake of the argument let us say it is 300 pages. If you look closely you will see that 100 pages are spells.

That leaves you with 200 pages to read. 10 pages more to look through your 1st level spells if you play a spellcaster like druid, cleric or wizard.

210 pages top.

If the GM is doing his work, he'll let people know what they actually need to read. For example, around one third of the book are spells, over half of them usually being things your class can't cast and you're given a spell list so you can quickly find the relevant ones when starting out. You won't even touch those pages if you are a fighter.
First hundred pages are also a lot of needless fluff too, what you'll learn from them is what your race, class and background does(you can just skim through the small descriptions of each and see what fits your character idea, then see what it does mechanically). You also have objects, most of which are fluff, people know what having a sleeping bag with them means and since the default start is that of sets of tools, you only need to read what your tools do, which won't be a lot.
Last few pages are what matters the most but it's just describing you have two rolls in game, d20+relevant modifiers and damage rolls, so you figure out what you need to know are your modifiers and your weapon damage and finally the actions you can take in and out of combat, this part is slightly lengthier, I admit.

All that you actually need to read for the first session shouldn't top 50 pages, everything else won't be that necessary and I can fit all info a new player with a set character would need in 2 pages.

>Rules book writers really need to get better about condensing the essential rules of play into a single short section of the book
For all its flaws, Warhammer 40000 does this well. The rules are in their own section, and all the fluff is in another. You never have to shift through fluff to find the rules you are looking for.

Of course, that the rules STILL take up an insurmountable amount of space, is another problem. But that is rules bloat, and not because the writers just wrote a lot of fluff and rules, and then threw it all in the blender to mix for 10 minutes.

I think new players would have a lot less trouble with long rule books if they had a good central place to go that has all the commonly consulted rules of play with page references for the long form rules or special circumstances. Some companies have been better than others about this, just like some are better than others about mixing fluff and rules. I think that books that have dedicated fluff chapters are generally more readable than books that mix everything up, but I don't think a little nod to how the crunch relates to the fluff is bad as long as it's succinct enough to avoid making the actual rules text hard to reference quickly. That editing and formatting tend to be so bad is kind of a shame in a hobby that relies so heavily on reference books.

Why do you play with them?

>the user on Veeky Forums that's never actually played a table top game

Ok sure, I get your point. Hell, I had to be coached along my very first game because there some things I didn't understand. But for fuck sake at least read the basic rules to the game you're about to play. You don't need to read the whole rule book, you don't even need to fully understand everything, mistakes will be fixed as you play, but at least have the decency to try to actually look at the first 5 to 10 pages of the actual rule book, you can't tell me that's in any way difficult.

But the design flaws aren't the issue in this instance user. The problem is that the OP's players aren't even bothering reading the basic rules, it's not like they would know there were any design flaws to begin with if they don't know how to play the game.

>look at the first 5 to 10 pages of the actual rule book
You mean the part that contains little to no relevant information?

I've seen shit like that happen before, it's always the "that guy" that doesn't really bother to pay attention to the game.

that's really an issue nowadays

reading old d&d editions is quite the experience. the actual rules might not be as streamlined, having stuff like thac0 and such - but the explanatory texts are much more to the point.

it seems modern rpg book authors want to write epic fantasy instead of actually optimizing their shit for new players to understand

...

.....You know the actual rules you need to know are only like 10 pages or so right? Most of the rest of the book is litterally just everything else you need while playing through the game, you don't even need to look at it most of the time. It holds the spell charts, prices on equipment, class info to help level your character up properly, etc. You don't need to read more than 15 pages at most to completely understand the game.

obviously he meant past the intro smartass

That is why I like the rules in 40k, bloated as they are. Despite being short and concise, they generally have a sentence or two which explains why the rule works in fluff. Just a tiny short tidbit like "The shinmering field of energy absorbs incoming fire, and grants the model a +4 save." Kind of wording. It gives you a very brief idea of what is actually happening, without wasting half a page describing it.

>Most of the rest of the book is litterally just everything else you need
And that is somehow not relevant?

Listen buddy, most of us do not want to have to explain rules to you very time because you think "I can just read it when it becomes relevant lol xd". You should at least read it once. Even if you dont remember everything, because no one is expecting you to - we just expect you to at least be aware of all of the rules concerning you.

I mean, if you play a human fighter, you can safely disregard the entire chapter about magic (you aren't expected to know about that), any races not human, and any classes not fighter. That immediately cuts down almost 200 pages.

If you can't read the remaining 100 easy to read pages, which is like 50% pictures and 20% tables, then you aren't willing to put any effort into the game, so why should the rest of the table put any effort into you?

>That's why they've been phased out.
Uh, no. They got phased out so the suits can cost some extra costs on publishing the manuals. Why else do you think they've gone with those ugly "eco-friendly" plastic cases with the massive chunks cut out? It sure as shit doesn't protect the case or the disk from damage.

If RPG publishers could figure out ways to cut as many corners as possible, they will. Hence why so many books are still black and white. The only reason companies like Wizards doesn't already do PDFs for games like 5e is because of piracy, and because they want to sell you their own shitty service so casuals can just drag and drop their character without having to do the most basic research.

essentially, a single player tutorial for rpg systems would be a nice solution

pathfinder actually has something similiar in the 'beginner box'
it teaches a few basic concepts, like dc, attack rolls and such

something like that, just more elaborate, would be a nice solution. players could play through it on their own and get a grasp of the most basic stuff while doing it

if they want to learn more, for example how other classes work, they could either play through additional tutorials - or read up on it

in any case - I've used the pathfinder beginner box stuff and it was really helpful for absolute beginners

Wow, way to be retarded, you know we're agreeing on the same thing right? I'm trying to argue that players should have to read the rulebook and that saying that 300 pages is hard is a bullshit argument when the basic rules are only 10 to 20 pages. That's not hard, that's basically an elementary school level reading assignment. If a bunch of 8 year olds can read up to 30 or 40 pages of a book they're being forced to read, then a full grown adult has the capability to read 20 pages for a game they're willingly participating in without whining about how hard it is. What I'm trying to say is that while reading the full book would certainly help, you don't need to memorize the price of a horse, or the exact damage of every weapon of the game, or the entire spell chart, etc. Most of the that can be learned as you play. Just have the decency to at least read the basic rules and how your class works without whining like a little shit.

You know for a second I didn't believe you, but the numbers check out. A new player needs to read chapter 1, 7 through 10, and appendix A in their entirety which is only about 37 pages. Maybe up to 10 more reading through specifics for their race and class tops. The rest can either be skimmed or ignored entirely.

>it seems modern rpg book authors want to write epic fantasy instead of actually optimizing their shit for new players to understand
Probably closer to the writers and more importantly editors have been immersed in games for so long that they don't know how to stand back and ask themselves if the book works for someone who doesn't know how to read an RPG rulebook. The editing and design language of the books don't do a good job of guiding new players to read what they need to read.

>disk
Are you from the past?

My other DM friend and I always print out cheat/reference sheets.

>it's certainly what most gamemasters want to play
Fuck that. I have faith in my ability to improvise and don't want a tangled clusterfuck of rules getting in my way. I prefer to start with a rules-light system and houserule it up to rules-medium (but stopping significantly short of rules-heavy).

>5e is really rules light though
Barbarians of Lemuria is rules-light. 5e is rules-medium.

>The rulebook is 300 pages long,
If you only count the PHB. Throw in the DMG and it's 600 pages.

>It isn't 300 pages because there are bunch of charts and tables...
Sure, but compare that Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition, which is 200 pages in a single volume, including a section on monsters, while the 5e PHB and DMG are 600 pages between them (and that doesn't even count the Monster Manual). Also, Mythic Edition roughly doubled the page count from the previous edition, with most of the material being additional setting information, rules for secondary shit like ships, and other non-vital material.

While absolutely true it still doesn't make it a rules light game like RISUS. Even OD&D which is a very barebones system I wouldn't consider rules light, because it has several quite specific rules about how to play.

Besides, one third of the game book is dedicated to spells? Yikes, and it's not supposed to be the caster edition...

>muh supar sekrit klub
>muh rpg books need to be organized like the Palladium Rifts books!!!!1!11!!!!

kys faggot

OD&D is a bit tricky to peg because A) it leaves a fair bit of stuff unexplained and B) its complexity varies widely according to whether you use all the supplements or not. But I would consider Moldvay Basic to be rules-light, even if it's not at the more minimalist end of the category. As for Risus, it certainly belongs in rules-light if we're only dividing things into 3 categories, but I hardly think it's the center point of that category. Not everything that's rules-light is also rules-barely-there. It's more minimalist than merely rules-light. However, none of this changes the fact that 5e is rules-medium.

>If you only count the PHB. Throw in the DMG and it's 600 pages.

DMG is if you want to run the game. This is why books are called PLAYER's handbook and GAMEMASTER's handbook

Not that obvious to a beginner. Which is presumably who we're talking about.

>DMG is if you want to run the game.
Sure. But if we're comparing game heaviness, the player part of 5e is some fraction of 600 pages, while the player part of Barbarians of Lemuria is some fraction of 200. I don't know precisely what fraction of 200 the player part of BoL is, since it's a single edition sort of thing, but it's a smaller fraction than it is in 5e, as those 200 pages includes monsters and shit too. So maybe we're comparing the 300 pages of the 5e PHB to 50 pages of the BoL rules.

Rules are
>say your guy does something
>roll the d20
>if its a high number you do it

There are a number of things within the DMG that players will need to read too. Assuming the DM wants to use treasure from the DMG or Variant rules, anyway.

Or the DM can make cards and stuff for loot so nobody has to look at the DMG

This is awesome, thanks user. Just joined a new group recently and they're good folks but this will help a lot I think.

Dude 5e is so simple I struggle to wonder how people get confused at DM'ing/playing it.

Granted no I couldn't pick it up this moment and start playing but I could do a hell of a convincing job.

Because it's a poorly designed mess and many GMs/players do not have the experience necessary to compensate for its flaws?

cool how do i make my character?
am i different from anyone else or are we all cardboard cutouts of tom cruise?
what if i wanna do two things?
can i shoot rainbows from my eyes in this?

That's bullshit, I have no experience with TTRPG, 5e was easy to read and very light on the rules.

>not reading
Me to a t. I no longer have the attention span for long written works after too much Veeky Forums without any real books to pad it out. Send help.

13 pages tho?

You should unironically kill yourself.