D&D Question

Okay, I am DMing right now and my bard tried to use Vicious Mockery on a swarm of butterflies.
I talk him that it has no effect due to them not having ears. Keep in mind the Mockery only works if the target can hear you. Butterflies however have no ears and are by definition deaf.
Quote: Butterflies do not have ears, so they can't hear sounds like we can. However, their wings are very sensitive and they can feel the vibrations (very fast back and forth movements) that different sounds make.

So whats your verdict?
Pic not related.

I find your reasoning a bit too nitpicky. I would have ruled it wouldn't work because they are mindless creatures.

How does one mock a swarm of butterflies.

Does it affect mindless things?

You call them prissy gay moths.

yes, you unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. lf the target can hear you (though it need not understand you)

>If the target can hear you (thought it need not understand you)
Yes.

I would probably allow it based on the quality of the insult the bard threw at them. If it's clever or tosses me a chuckle I'll allow it.

Found the bard.

You call them Faggot Fliers

It's a single target enchantment spell that deals psychic damage. There isn't a mindless trait persay but it would be an odd thing for such a spell to work on an entire swarm of insects. So I'd Rule 0 that in that case it doesn't work.

5e is shit.

Mind spells on creatures with no minds, necro damage on necro undead, so why not language based attacks on creatures without a shared language.

After all logical rules are too complicated for the average D&D 5e player.

Generally meaningless rules arguments are just detrimental to the game.

There's no wrong or right answer here and trying to find one is a pointless exercise of one up manship. It's your game and you're the DM so you decide how your game world works and stick with it.

Insects are generally of the Vermin creature type.

Vermin are considered Mindless and are not affected by enchantment spells.

The swarm of butterflies is either an invalid target, or the spell fizzles.

>Talking out my ass while having no idea how 5e works.

> thinking I'm psychic and know what edition the op refers to
Want an edition specific answer? Mention which edition in the question.

>Want an edition specific answer? Mention which edition in the question.

>All D&D is 3.5

Pathetic. I might have bet on the wrong horse in the Edition Wars, but at this point you threaboos are like that Japanese guy stuck in the forest for 50 years.

Here's your (You)

>I might have bet on the wrong horse in the Edition Wars
So, 4e?

Sucks to be you.

Your rationale is stupid since its a sonic attack and butterflies can comprehend sound.

However, vicious mockery specifically should not work because the butterflies are not intelligent enough to understand they are being mocked.

Well fuck you too, guy.

This a butterfly/moth people thread now.

Question is dumb.

I petition this become an art threat for insect people.

Does the power work against groups of enemies, or a single target?

If the latter, one butterfly explodes in a cloud of outrage and tiny bits of wing, the rest are unphased by the insult because he was clearly talking about Brett. Fuck Brett.

>Does Vicious Mockery work?
>No
>Why not?
>Because I'm the DM and I said so, we can discuss this after the game and not bring everything to a standstill

This is the problem with a generation raised by women.

>authoritarianism
The only mind that accepts "because I said so" is a weak one, and the orders of one who uses the argument of "because I said so" are invalid.

Get the fuck out.

Do you actually believe women raising children is some sort of weird, novel concept?

Don't feed /pol/tards.

>Does Vicious Mockery work?
>No
>Why not?
>Because I'm the DM and I said so, we can discuss this after the game and not bring everything to a standstill
This is the problem with GMs that waste valuable game time with nonsense.

>I cast vicious mockery on the butterflies.

>They don't seem to be effected.

>But DM, WHY aren't they effected?

>That's for me to know and you to find out, if you can manage to discover the secret before being devoured by these man eating butterflies

>Wasting everyone's fucking time because you're butthurt the DM decided your spell didn't work

t. that guy

I don't see why it wouldn't work.

His argument is dumb, rule 0 is in full effect, and 5e bards are all the fuck over the place thematically.

>Okay, I am DMing right now and my bard tried to use Vicious Mockery on a swarm of butterflies.

But why?

How do I start DMing ?

Why not?

Because it's stupid and useless and doesn't do anything to move the game forward?

says you

I'm pretty sure butterflies can hear.
The more pressing thing is that the enchantments in Vicious Mockery are meant to target one creature, while a swarm of butterflies is many creatures. You'll probably insult one to death, which is a great party trick, but not the whole horde.

You're right there is no wrong or right answer. You could run a game where all the laws of physics work as intended except for the battlefield. You can also run a game where normal mundane insects behave exactly like real insects except for the purposes of bard abilities they have complex emotions.

It's all about the choices you want to make and these are all perfectly valid choices. Being inconsistent is just as valid a choice as drinking coke with piss. Whatever floats your boat man, live your dreams.

Given druids can have conversations with animals the implication in 5e is all animals have complex emotions, Dr Doolittle style.

Incorrect animals don't have a language. Druids "speak" like the horse/dog whisperer communicates.

They can also talk with plants and nature as a whole because it's magic. That doesn't mean those things have human intelligence and culture. You can't cutting words the planet.

>t. libertarian fuccboi
Sit down and shut up, the DM's word is law.
If you don't like it, feel free to fuck off.

Is that a pink anus?

>So whats your verdict?

Butterflies aren't smart enough to comprehend or contextualize your mockery no matter how magical.
I wouldn't argue that the Butterflies can't "hear" you because they can, they can sense the sound vibrations through their wings- their wings ARE their ears, but they're not smart enough for your spell to mean or do anything to them.

I actually looked it up, I wasn't going to, but now I'm invested:
"You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you (though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a wisdom saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn."

This is just my personal interpritation, but the magic behind this is psionic/psychic in nature only to the degree that it circumvents language barriers: not the ones created by a creature's lack of intellect, so while you could use this on a Dog or a Gorilla or a Triceratops and have it succeed- you can't just harass the ants and beets.

I'm also kind of agreeing with the other user's in that it sounds like the spell is designed to specifically target the mind of only one creature and not swarms of them or groups....
So if you wanted to be a cheeky bugger you could meet your player in the middle and have 'one' butterfly affected.

It's written in the description that the target doesn't need to understand you for Vicious Mockery to work.

Because it serves literally no purpose without decent context. Are they enemy butterflies somehow? Are they so en-mass blocking the path to something important? Are they talking shit on the Pixie Barbarian and the Bard wants to get them back? You can't just say Bard mocks butterflies and leave it at that, I want to know what these butterflies did to make the Bard think was the course of action to take today. Then and only then does OP deserve an answer worth half a damn.

Or just, you know, fuck butterflies.

Are the kikes running Veeky Forums into the ground?

'creature' is a mechanic term to differentiate specifi stuff from objects. A swarm of butterflies, at least as far as I read the implication here, is a creature with the swam type for the same reason you are not a swarm of Eukaryotes that need to played mechanically one by one and work together to form the desired adventurer.

I know you're shitposting, but there are spells that depend on sharing a language. Vicious mockery is not one of those spells.

Then the answer is "sure, they flit off in irritation", and the DM moves on.

>you can't just harass the ants and beets.
I think this is beautiful

Op here, they were zombie butterflies.

Call then fat lazy pieces of shit who I secretly hated this whole time because goddamn don't interrupt me telling everyone about your stupid spell rules when I'm trying to tell the DM my action on my turn no one cares

Why would this be a problem?

It's also a single target spell so it would have killed one butterfly out of the swarm.

Best idea so far.

I don't think VM really makes sense for a swarm regardless.

Assuming you mean they're the sort that want to drink the PCs blood as opposed to flower juice then. I would imagine the mindless state would be more a concern than if they were butterflies at that point though. Even so, a fire spell would be a better pick at that point, so your Bard is still dumb for doing it all the same