Cawl!!!

What's the source for this? At least all the other traitor geneseed chapters were a tad subtle, this looks like gw introducing the concept to 12 year olds.

Also the Emperor's Children used Phoenix heraldry in a few places and have been compared to Phoenixes in several places (Fulgrim's rebuilding of Chemos, the revival of the EC after finding Fulgrim, the transformation of the EC after falling). Also Fulgrim was known as the Phonecian.

>There's nothing inherently wrong with geneseed from the traitor legions.
Well Thousand Sons for one are cursed to burst into mutations.

Don't forget
Which primarch was the phoenix motif phoenician one?

They actually made a partidges chapter, the madmen

I liked the Scorps, even if they did get literally everything because they were FW's pet

>all the other traitor geneseed chapters were a tad subtle
The Cursed Founding? Or are there new ones

Can't wait for Alphamarine Chapter [Progenitor: Guilliman]

Yeah, because every Ultra successor is super by the book, blue, and has an upside down omega on them.

>Act like Emperor's Children
>Use Emperor's Children colours
>Named after a symbol used in EC heraldry
So if you saw a chapter with a blue arm and knee pad named the Sons of the Hydra known for being sneaky and focusing on infiltration it wouldn't raise any eyebrows?

Hell, we almost have that in one of the scion regiments already.

Blood Ravens.

The majority of ultra descendants ARE very by-the-book, and I mean, the majority of blood angel sucessors have some sort of blood motif, quite a few imperial fists have fist motifs, raven guard and birds, and more.
This has ALL the emperor's children iconography, and no imperial fist iconography.
Combine that with Cawl's express interest in making traitor geneseed chapters, and it's 2+2 user.

>The Cursed Founding
No, actually, they were mostly fine. The biggest were

Blood ravens = thousand sons
>Abnormally high number of psykers
>unknown geneseed, unknown founding
>No chapter history, obsessed with trying to figure it out
>Colour scheme similar to pre-heresy TS
>In the book "A thousand sons" (I think, but it was definitely a TS HH book) not all the TS are accounted for on prospero, and a corvidae cult (Read: RAVEN cult) psyker has a vision of "a raven of blood"
>That last one came out a long while after the theory was already everywhere so it can be taken in context as a WOG confirmation

Red scorpions = Emperor's children
>PURE
>unknown geneseed/chapter history
>obsessed with geneseed
>Dedicated to emperor
>super stable geneseed

Silver skulls = Iron warriors
This one's quite simple
>Chapter symbols are identical
>There were a detachment of loyalist IW on ultramar during imperium secundus
>Rowbootay liked them

And finally, and most tenuously
Grey knights = Alpha legion
>Geneseed taken directly from emperor
>Raven guard had access to such geneseed, until alpha legion stole some
>One of the first grandmasters was "Janus", named after two-faced roman god of beginnings and endings (alpha and omega)
>alpha legion are maybe secretly loyalist who knows
>memes

First is nearly 100% confirmed, middle two are maybes, last is just food for thought.

>Red scorpions
Don't forget they also refuse to have their geneseed tested or examined in any way. Suggesting they know something untoward about it.

You mean the scythes of the emperor are Iron Warriors, since their chapter master wears what is essential Dantiochs mask?

Also Minotaurs (World Eaters) and possibly the Carcharodons, though I think they're Raven Guard gone wrong rather than Night Lords.

>Chapter symbol represents Mount Charas
>OOC, named after charas, a type of hashish
>Which the Hassassin were named after
>Which is where we get the word "assassin"
The references go deep boyss

Minotaurs are almost certainly Iron Warriors though
>Greek motif
>use same total war tactics as Iron Warriors during the last phases of assault to crack open fortresses but don't have the tanks and manpower for long siege warfare
>BRASS instead of IRON, how subtle
>unknown geneseed/history

Also, wouldn't loyalist World Eater descendents be a lot more stable, since they wouldn't receive the butcher nails ?

>red and yellow armour
>all about honour and competing
>take up oaths
>lots of psykers

What's their parent chapter/legion?

>reference to fire in the name
>red and yellow armour
>symbol is a bird
>all about assault and have taken terrible losses

What's their parent chapter/legion?

>references to angels in the name
>silver and red
>symbol is a cross
>zealous fucks who don't revere their primarch and are all about the Imperial creed

What's their parent chapter/legion?

>gunmetal armour
>stylized skull symbol
>collect heads of their enemies
>uses librarians to predict the future and decide tactics

What's their parent chapter/legion?

>black armour
>white raptor head as symbol
>specializes in drop pod assault

What's their parent chapter/legion?

Since there are some Space Marine Chapters that recruit from worlds that also produce Imperial Guard Regiments, is there any precedence for recruiting the family members of Space Spess Recruits or even failed Initiates into the Imperial Guard or Militarum Tempestus?

As a follow-up, what do we know about WE pre-reunion with Angron and mass implantation of butcher nails ?

Strong camaraderie was their thing. Irony being that they turn into teamkilling fucktards who can't follow orders

Space Sharks are all but outright stated to be Raven Guard. Specifically, dickass vicious Terran Raven Guard exiled by Corax for being brutal and oppressive. They aren't World Eaters.

>This has ALL the emperor's children iconography, and no imperial fist iconography.

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Templars
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Celestial_Lions
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Executioners
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Invaders
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Knights

Don't mind us, totally not Fists successors, since we don't have anything that relates us to Fists.

Space Marine Chapter homeworlds and often their recruitment grounds are exempt from conscription and Imperial tithes. They'd have to volunteer.

The Ultramarines did something like that in the Heresy, where failed aspirants got used as officer material for the Vigil Operatii in Ultramar.

Strong sense of brotherhood, with a tactical aptitude for mechanized assaults leading into brutal close combat.

Confirmed traitors

Depends on how the planet recruits. Shira Calpurnia (Arbitrator) mentions that she has or had a relative who was an Ultramarine.

I mean maybe, but they are known for their merciless assaults and going too far, rather than sieges and garrisons. Even before the Nails the War Hounds were assault oriented.

Black Templars are Loyalist Word Bearers

I said Night Lords for them, didn't I? There's a popular belief that they are Night Lords, bespite Nostromo being the only real reason Night Lords have black eyes.

Did you not read the previous fucking line
>quite a few imperial fists have fist motifs
I'm not saying to be a descendant of X you HAVE to have iconography from X, I just said it was the case a lot of the time, and was a good indicator. Just because X implies Y does not mean Y requires X
Also the teutonic cross was retconned to be pre heresy IF iconography too, so you can strike templars off that list.

Imperial Fists recruit on Necromunda, and that has several Imperial Guard Regiments. . .

A better question is can you spot anything remotely dorn-y for the Sons if you wanna insist on pure coincidence

Yes, you did. Either way, they're pretty conclusively exactly what they say they are. They're a lost 2nd Founding Raven Guard chapter who have been doing Nomad Predation tactics for 10k years.

Not their homeworld. Terra is officially their homeworld, but is unique, so they're treated as a fleet-based chapter for all intents and purposes.

Stem from one subset that was exempt

>quite a few imperial fists have fist motifs

Yes, because if you just slap fist icons on those, they're 100% Imperial Fists. Also, I left out a lot of chapters that did have a Fist on them. And there's a lot of Ultra chapters that don't have (you)s on them.

>Also the teutonic cross was retconned to be pre heresy IF iconography too, so you can strike templars off that list.

And how much do you see IF themselves actually use it, vs. their successors?

>I just said it was the case a lot of the time, and was a good indicator.

Except in this case we're told what the progenitor is, so speculating is pointless. I mean, otherwise we could start theorizing plenty about various successor chapters, who don't look nor act much like their parent chapter, but a lot like another chapter/legion.

I really don’t get why people think:
>Woah a similar color scheme!
>must be loyal heretics etc.
Maybe
Just maybe
Hear me out now
Maybe they just look similar?

>merciless assaults and going too far
Which is something Iron Warriors also do, but I'll concede it could go either way
It's the greek motif that really sells it for me, but I'm also a massive IW fan, so I am biased.

The Minotaurs were suspected WE successors, but those Minotaurs no longer exist (they had an eye-watering red and yellow colour scheme)

It's hinted that the new, High Lords' Minotaurs also have a lot of traitor geneseed in the mix though

Also according to some folks on plebbit (I know, but I can't be assed to find the actual source) :
>The Minotaurs' geneseed comes from an unknown source, and is described as "chimeric" - a word implying it is a mixture from multiple sources
That would imply they could very well be a mix of Iron Warrior and World Eater
Definitely not good neighbours

No wonder GW has no pretense of subtlety. People wouldn't get their jokes and references otherwise

Yeah, other than the color scheme, behavior, name, and iconography there's not reason to suspect they aren't just run-of-the-mill Dorn successors.

>we could start theorizing plenty about various successor chapters, who don't look nor act much like their parent chapter, but a lot like another chapter/legion
We already do? The Silver skulls are "Ultramarines", but everything points to them being Iron Warriors. Minotaurs are canonically chimeric and Carcharodons Astra are Raven guard but >Yes, because if you just slap fist icons on those, they're 100% Imperial Fists.
I have no idea what you mean by this. Many imperial fists successor chapters have fist iconography.
>Also, I left out a lot of chapters that did have a Fist on them
Okay, cool, that would back up my point?
>And there's a lot of Ultra chapters that don't have (you)s on them.
You really aren't paying any attention to anything I'm saying, aren't you. Okay, Ultramarine successor chapters usually don't have the inverted omega. Having the iconography of a chapter implies being a successor of that chapter, but being a successor of that chapter does not require iconography. The fact that most ultra successors don't have (you)s on them does nothing to change the fact that if a chapter did have a (you) as their chapter symbol they would probably be an ultramarine descendant, as successors don't really cross those lines.

>And how much do you see IF themselves actually use it, vs. their successors?
Quite often in the Hersey. Only a few successors did.

It's a lot more than just a colour scheme user.

Definitely heard "chimeric" for the Brass Minotaurs.

The pic related Minotaurs were part of the 21st and were noted berserkers that died out.

The High Lords wanting to leverage certain features that no other chapter can have makes sense (WE geneseed probably being your best bet if for hitting SW or BA), as does their need to actually control that, hence the chimeric. The IW did as they were told right up until they shattered, and they were notoriously brutal and good with equipment - a solid addition to the makeup, and there's probably a bit more stuff in there too.

Would love to see somebody do a modern Minotaurs army using this spat paint job to make a "Desert Camo" Minotaurs army.

Space Marines can pretty much recruit from anywhere (theoretically) if they have consent of the Governor in question, but have undisputed rights within their Chapter holdings.

It's not uncommon for many Chapters to ask for a batch of recruits from worlds in exchange for salvation from outside threats, and many populations are more than willing to volunteer to become living legends as Space Marines.

Back-scratching makes the Imperium turn, after all.

Primaris are the ones that need to get genocided

Real Dorn sucessors use fists. End of discussion.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Flickr_-_davehighbury_-_Bovington_Tank_Museum_102_panther.jpg

Pic Related.

The problem is that most astartes venerate their primarchs. Can't you see how dangerous it could be if some primaris chapter decided to venerate a traitor primarch?

Can't venerate a Primarch that you don't know is yours.

>being decended from a primarch
kek

Whats the source on this pic, OP?

Her granduncle was still with the 2nd Company at the time of her novels.

>The IW did as they were told right up until they shattered, and they were notoriously brutal and good with equipment - a solid addition to the makeup, and there's probably a bit more stuff in there too.
How much of that is the geneseed and how much is chapter/legion culture, though?

That would be a fucking nightmare to paint.

Something like that, don't remember.

>you'll never have a story where she meets him and they have a chat

But if you were genebrothers of the most notorious heretics in the galaxy, who at the Siege of Terra literally rounded civilians up, mass raped them with mutant tentacles they had grown and then ground them down into drugs which they then snorted, wouldn't you want to be a bit subtle about it?

all of those are Ultrasmurf successors

>ultra successors
>not blue
>not covered in Us
>not abiding by the codex

Sounds sketchy.

There's one Ultramarine successor that's literally just Blood Angel colors and an upside down Ultramarine symbol or something like that.

>Primogenitor: Rogal Dorn
Disappointing cover story. Should have been Ferrus Manus for the extra irony.

Clearly a BA successor then, merely pretending to be ret-... Ultramarines.

>extra iron-y.

We are the Seniramartlus! And we fight for Sangui-...Guilliman!

>At least all the other traitor geneseed chapters were a tad subtle
So subtle that it's not even convincing. Most, if not all, of the "loyalist traitor" chapters are just retarded reaches.
>Sons of Antaeus are tough
>Plague Marines are tough
>Sons of Antaeus must be loyalist Death Guard
It's fucking stupid. Especially the people who think Carcharadons are Night Lords because they're both scary.

>muh white skin
>muh ursus claws
>muh non-canon book that doesn't even mention the word chimeric

I thought Carcharadons were the Ravenguard that Corvus sent away for being too hardcore even for him when he took over

They are, but retards still claim they're NL, 6 years after their published fluff which literally says UNIQUE MARKERS SPECIFIC TO RAVEN GUARD in printed text and 3 years after we learn about how Corax exiled them.

>muh white skin
Which is funny when they mention it because Space Shark geneseed giving marines pale skin and black eyes basically confirms them as Raven Guard descendants. The Night Lords only had those traits due to recruits from Nostromo but it's a geneseed mutation in the RG.

They're clearly SW successors with a corrupted geneseed.

>tfw too goth for the goth king

I bet he doesn't even eat the organs of his enemies, fucking Corvus more like Casualvus

Grey Knights' founders are marines from the traitor legions who went "screw you" to their insane Primarchs.

ayy hawaiia marines bradda

>there are people that actually get upset about primaris being the new standard.
this is one of the clearest signs of autism i have ever seen on /tag/

>there are people that actually get upset about primaris being the new standard.
Link to one post in this thread which supports that statement.

Reminder there is a Blood Angels chapter who thought they were smurfs and only found out when Astorath came to finish off those who fell to the Black Rage. (Their homeworld had legal blood drinking rituals that they adopted in the chapter)

...

Fair enough, how about a second considering you said people?

>Casualvus

Kek'd

>what are you gonna do about it SCRUBAX? cry to your daddy? OH WAIT HE'S DEAD
>abloobloobloo *runs off to Eye of Terror while quoting Nightpain*

Do any loyal WE successors exist in current fluff?

>descended from bird
>not beaky
HERESY

No, due to the nature of the butcher's nails and their mandatory implantation. The last loyalist WEs and non-nailed War Hounds are all dead by the end of 30k.

Cawl probably made some Primaris WE though.

No. They had almost no loyalists because by the Heresy they were all fucked up with Nails. There's only two canon XIIth legion loyalists I believe.

...

I'd think that any loyalist WE would've stopped using nails after the HH. And it was quoted by khârn that Angron made it mandatory but it'd be impossible to keep track of everyone. Maybe some lived.

Its not autism, its just sunk cost. People spent thousands of dollars buying their dudes, now they need to get all new dudes. Its just that simple.

>I'd think that any loyalist WE would've stopped using nails after the HH
It's impossible to remove without killing the host.

In Void Stalker it is stated that the gene seed turns their eyes black.
Sahaal is described with black eyes too, even though he's terran