Star Wars vs Warhammer 40k

With the hit and run style you're talking about it sounds like a Dark Eldar flaying tactic, again the Imperial Navy have fought against shit like that before, it becomes a matter of armor vs firepower, if SW ships cannot dish out enough for the tactic to work then they would warp back in only to get obliterated.

Admitedly this one goes to SWs

However, the Imperium is used to dealing with war in multiple fronts, with completely different enemies. It has been sieged for +10k yrs and has resisted. If the Imperium commits a huge force we may end up with another Damocles, but if smaller forces aim for systems they will be nigh unstoppable there. And, correct me if I'm wrong, the Empire has no casual exterminatus weapons outside the Death star, which mirrors the world engine, a threat the imperium has dealt with. Again, the imperium has much more experience in war.

>Ruinous Powers

RIP Star Wars

Why every single time I see this shit it's always space marines vs. Storm troopers.
There are roughly a million marines so there will be a a tiny proportion of Marine-involved conflicts compared to guardsmen conflicts.
Also empire wins cos reliable light-speed travel.

>space marines vs storm troopers
It's not like Dark Troopers exist and are a better match

>I feel like we haven't had a proper argument regarding this
>another star wars vs 40k thread
then you're a newfag

Unless the Imperium just goes straight for the SW planets.

BTW, the OP specifically said "the general whole of Warhammer 40k".

So you know...between the Nids and the Necrons, there ain't no contest.

And yes, OP is either bait or a fucking newfag.

StormTrooper vs Space Marine my butt.

You see Finn? He's a Stormtrooper. You think he can deal with a fucking Blood Claw 1v1?

Using maps that took multiple millennia to draw and a whole section of their own galaxy is still unexplored.

They don't have a single map of the Milky Way. They just lost their single advantage.

What about Jedi vs Space Marines?

The main issue is scale. And that's all it really comes down to.

Really.

The Galactic Empire and The Imperium of Man cover about the same area and the same amount of planets. But beyond that they fact that they're galaxy spanning military minded empires, the comparisons stop there.

As I said. The issue is scale.

Allow me to make an analogy. Certain types of ants can lift 5x their body weight, very impressive. But a human's boot will crush them regardless.

To make the comparison. Empire battlesships are like 1-2 kilometers while imperial battleships are 10-12 kilometers with much more mass and a much greater shield area to Disperse energy over, which is what it ultimately comes down to. A bullet may shatter a small piece of concrete, but fail utterly to do more then dent a huge wall of it. Then the imperial ship turns back to the empire ship and fires more energy per shot then the empire ships can take.

To have an easier time thinking about scale differences. Imagine the Death Star. A moon sized battle garion that could blow planets apart with its power.

The Imperium has all that power in a torpedo. One single torpedo. A cyclonic melta torpedo. And it blows the planet apart.

The empire has the advantage of speed. But that is it. On the ground they are outmatched, again, due to the scale of things and also due to the differences in soldiery.

The military apparatus of the Imperium is just bigger and the size of ground conflicts are immense. The Empire's war machine is incredibly strong, but it can't field the millions of battle tanks seen in the great battles of the Imperium and nor does it have equivalents to the greatest of superheavy ground vehicles. The empire's battle doctrine revolves more more shock assault then grinding warfare. Or if you want to talk about scale of weapons again, the Leman Russ conquer fires nuclear bombs. From a tank. And they aren't even the strongest weapon by far.

The difference in soldiery is also very huge. Disposition in particular. As we get more media on the Empire, especially on anything focusing on the common guys, we basicly learn that stormtroopers (outside of the elite) are basicly voulenteers or conscripts who are just doing their job. This is great for humanizing the 'bad guys' but not great for going up against trillions of fanatics who would blow themselves up then be captured. The Imperial Army is motivated in a way that the Empire's army simply is not. A motivated army is an effective army.

Rank and file marine with a power sword vs rank and file Jedi, I give it to the marine.

Jedi grand master vs marine chapter master. Whew. I dunno. I suppose it depends on how easily the grand master could use the force to affects tons of power armor on the go in combat.

Mmm, how does clone troopers compare by the "standards" of the imperial guard? I'm not just talking about equipment, but also tactics, morale, logistics and that sort of things.

IG armies would have a bitch of a time in trying to kill storm troopers. Storm Trooper's under armor (Hell their white armor is also design to stop slug rounds too) is design to disburse extreme heat from a blaster round. IG's weapons are mostly flashligh with the stopping power of a pump air rifle that's been pumped a little too much.

>Flashlight meme

They got commissars though and chainswords to terrify nearby clone troopers.

>muh flashlight is better than yours

The only reason the lasgun gets mocked is because things like hvy bolters exist.

>Blast'em
>They get blasted

>Star Wars vs Warhammer 40k
the only way SW has a chance is if you go full retard and say that IoM still is affected by chaos while SW isn't even if they occupy the same space

because when we look atother scenarions IoM wins
if chaos isn't a thing - then suddenly IoM doesn't have to worry about thei psykers tearing open the reality and summoning demons so they can be utilised freerly
on top of that their way of interstellar travel becomes much faster and more efficient
if chaos is a thing and both sides are affected then IoM functions normally while SW experiences the opening days of the Long Night

>IG armies would have a bitch of a time in trying to kill storm troopers
IG standard issue rifle can blow your arm off which means that in any other universe it would be an utterly terrifying weapon
but in wh40k we have orks
and they simply don't care

Have you seen a terrified clone trooper? I can't remember any. Scared, sure. Cautious, why not. Green, they come by the bulk. Shocked by trauma, once in rebel's series.

But never terrified. I'm not sure if clone troopers can actually panic, they certainly didn't mind grievous casualities while trying to arrest that 4-armed jedi toad in Umbara.

If that was the case then there would be more orks with robotic arms, Eldar and Tau wouldn't be a thing, and creating Space Marines would be a waste of resources.

What is that, a doctrine for ants?

I am a bigger fan of Star Wars than 40k, but 40k would fuck over Star Wars. Comparing the two is stupid though: 40k is designed to be played as a game, and cost has to be factored in building an army. Therefore each model is meant to be pretty powerful, otherwise you would be fielding shit tons of models. Star Wars, on the other hand, is a movie and not limited like 40k. They can have huge battles, with loads of soldiers involved. A better comparison would be SW v ST.

that gun can rip a human arm off but orks are tough enough to just take it just like Space Marines while Tau jump around alot and Eldar almost aren't a thing anyway

The thing is that jedi grand master have a wild variety of power levels, say from a SM captain to a Primarch.
They are suprisingly weak to damage though.

Lasgun is a flashlight only in relative to 40k standars. But it is a lot better thqn blasters as it can vaporize large ammount of flesh and even do large ammount of damage on concrete on higher settings, while still having no recoil(blasters do have recoil).

That only happens in Black Library wank. In every single iteration of the lasgun being interpreted by mechanics, it's about as good as an autogun.

So what?
SW storm troopers don't have bayonets and HTH drills based on taking out tough close combatants like orks.
IG will just keep attacking until it comes down to close quarters, where they have a clear advantage.
>tfw. never thought I'd be extolling the value of IG grunts in HTH!

Why not Jedi vis Primaris Marine?

Primaris are cucks

>One single torpedo
Space Hulk 1st ed says Imperial Navy torpedos have a yield of 1 gigaton. This about the same energy output we see from star destroyers in the asteroid belt from 'The Empire Strikes Back'.

Empire fleet can perform an exterminatus with raw firepower. Base Delta Zero was the naval code used by the Galactic Republic and Galactic Empire to order the complete surface destruction of a planetary target.
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero/Legends

An Imperial fleet can perform an exterminatus the same way without access to virus bombs or cyclonic torpedos, see Ciaphas Cain Caves of Ice.

>/Legends

The only advantage Star Wars has is much faster FTL, but that is negated by 40k's big super weapons, vastly superior ground forces, FTL Star Wars cannot detect, and infinitely greater ruthlessness. The Imperium wouldn't hesitate to spend the lives of billions to win a single battle, while even the Empire would balk at that.

I'd imagine they'd be much better than regular guardsman, given that they all wear sealed body armor and are literally bred for combat.

IG being sent to fight in massed waves despite poor equipment and provisions is kind of their whole idea.

Stormtroopers get owned by teddy bears and deal mostly with ISIS level terrorists.

IG deal with big ass green gorillas, xenomorphs on steroids, undead terminators and literal demons from Hell sometimes with all at the same time.

see
>we would have the EU (Expanded Universe) of Star Wars vs the general whole of Warhammer 40k
and
Canon articles for Base Delta Zero
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero

Abeloth wins. Everyone else gets eaten.

> I feel like we haven't had a proper argument regarding this

We have.

Empire advantages:
> Solid FTL advantage
> Relative unity compared to IoM
> Tau-grade ranged weapons
> Logistical superiority
> Can spit out +25k capital-grade starships in 3 years of conflict
> NOT a medieval-minded federation that has no means of responding to threats in a unified fashion
> Actually understands how their tech works
> Only has Rebellion and Hutts/Corporate Sector as rivals to power, while IoM is already semi-fucked

IoM advantages:
> Psykers strictly better than Dark Jedi
> Ships of the line are bigger, badder, stronger
> Federation structure lets locals largely respond to threats without burden of central leadership
> Exterminatus options varied and imaginative
> Adeptus Astartes would tear through Stormtroopers
> Tech is probably more advanced, albeit misunderstood

I think the Galactic Empire wins. It would take a while, and cross-pollination from the Orks or the Tyranids would probably fuck up the GE something fierce in the process, but the only way for the Empire to lose that fight is if the Imperials fall to infighting.

Isn't 1st ed of Space Hulk from 1989?
That is ancient, 40k was a lot different than how is is it today.

And this isn't really comparable as it is just a tactic to do orbit bombardememt till nothing remains alive on the surface.
Nothing like the cyclonic torpedo or it's two stage variants. Or even the Nova Cannon which has the blast radius of a planet.

> Tau-grade ranged weapons
Wot m8.
Blasters are weaker than lasguns.

> Can spit out +25k capital-grade starships in 3 years of conflict

If those are Star Destroyers level then it don't matter much as most random ship is larger and better armed in 40k.
Not to mention that even 40k has a lot of production as while it's per planet production low, they have literally more than a million of planets.

> Logistical superiority
Maybe that is because they don't have to supply millions of units on hundreds of fronts?
If they fought with the Imperium, that kind of logistic superiority wouln't last that long.

>only way for the Empire to lose that fight is if the Imperials fall to infighting.

Like when their only leader died?

Out of curiosity, what are the Imperium's fighters and point defenses like? I'm not familiar with Battlefleet Gothic, but TIE Fighters are basically space-Zeroes; dump literally every stat point into agility so that your paper armor doesn't matter and you can rip open other dogfighters.

Given their mobility advantage, the Empire's tactic of choice would be to pick off stragglers, hopping around and ensuring they always have the numerical advantage. Turbolasers and ion cannons can wear down void shields at extreme range while they drown the Imperium vessels in TIEs (since like 80% of their ships are hybrid carriers), and they have dedicated ECM cruisers to defeat missle-based responses.

This is important because ground battles would be heavily dependent on who can maintain orbital superiority; on average, a Baneblade is going to body an AT-AT, and a Space Marine is going to body a Dark Trooper, so TIE Bombers become essential close air support.

They do have fighters(assault craft) and point defence(because of torpedos). In fact, I believe that mega bolters are point defence in Rogue Trader, so I would guess that despite them being point defence they are giant sized like everything in 40k.

Also, I don't think the range of turbocannons are that different from madrobatteries. IDK the effects that ion cannons would have on void shields.

Also keep in minds that 40k ships are tough, fighter sized bombs won't do much against them.

>the imperium once committed to a course is stuck there
A lot of that is because their logistics are a clusterfuck, but the Imperium can go in hard and fast when they need to. The force that invaded Hoth was probably half the size of a single Imperial guard regiment, with a fifth of the firepower (not including specialised army-level support weapons the IG have access to).

An average jedi is worth 4 average marines in my count with just a lightsaber, because Jedi are unnaturally fast and can actually predict the future rather than relying on trained reflexes and strength like a space marine. If the jedi have Force Unleashed-tier force powers, one jedi could reasonably take out anything up to 20 marines in combat on the higher end of force ability, assuming the marines weren't ambushed and not taking ranged combat into account.
If you do take ranged combat into account, the Jedi is basically fucked against more than 5 marines, and even then if the marines have ~50 metres in which to shoot at the jedi, they stand a good chance of hitting them with a bolt round, which is not like a star wars laser blast that can be reflected by a lightsaber. A bolt round will detonate upon hitting the lightsaber, and will explode into fragments that spray onto the Jedi like shrapnel.
In melee combat at the higher levels of space marine ability, with a weapon that can resist the lightsaber effect (basically power weapons), Jedi stand a lot less of a chance, because the Eldar have superhuman ability to begin with on top of psychic powers, and the Space Marines smash them all the time in duels. Add to that that a space marine can overpower a jedi in the ever-so-common "sword pushing" move, not even bringing power fists into account.

>Using numbers given by SW or GW

You don goofed.

Comparing the force vs psykers is less objective, because both of them depend on the writer (the force very much so). My money is on a powerful psyker defeating a powerful force user, however, though if the force user isn't caught off guard and doesn't try to react like it's another force user, they stand a chance.
The force is reliable and safe to use, but its effects are limited to physical manipulation of the physical world (if light side), and more aggressive biological/physiological manipulation if dark side. By comparison, even though the warp is fickle and likely to kill the user, it is bringing a non-physical hellscape dimension into physical reality, so the type of physical matter manipulation that is advanced force use is very basic for a psyker with librarian-tier abilities, whereas the high-end powers are literally godlike in the case of the 40K Emperor, and reality-defying/reality-warping for the likes of Ahriman.
So pound for pound, 20 basic Jedi are going to obliterate 20 primaris psykers who don't kill themselves pulling off a last-ditch move, or use chaos, but your average space marine librarian would destroy almost any Jedi.

Given that mega-bolters are usually deployed on titans, superheavy tanks, etc., as a "light" anti vehicle weapon that incidentally vapourises infantry in its area of effect, it's safe to assume that it will wreck any lightly armoured flyers when used on a starship.

>Also keep in minds that 40k ships are tough, fighter sized bombs won't do much against them.
I agree with this in principle, but the point of Proton Torpedo runs isn't to damage the ship's structural integrity, it's to knock out their essential systems (macrocannon/lance batteries, communications, engines/gellar fields) so that the Star Destroyers can finish them off once they're dead in the water.

>The force that invaded Hoth was probably half the size of a single Imperial guard regiment, with a fifth of the firepower (not including specialised army-level support weapons the IG have access to).
This is another reason the Empire absolutely needs to maintain air superiority: The IG has a shitload of strategic-level artillery, and the Empire doesn't. AT-ATs have excellent firing arcs, powerful guns, and a narrow frontal target profile, so they're pretty much the Empire's only response to anything much heavier than a Leman Russ. They need constant support to not get outflanked and fucked by massed lascannon fire, though, and Stormtroopers are easily pinned down by Basilisks until waves of guardsmen can grind them down. AT-ST and AT-PT spam, perhaps?

A TIE fighter would be obliterated by a mega-bolter. In the 30k space marine super-heavies they put heavy bolters on the tank cupolas like WW2 tanks did with machine guns, but versus Star Wars fighters I think a heavy bolter is a reasonable enough anti-vehicle weapon.

>AT-ST and AT-PT spam, perhaps?
Perhaps. I get the impression that in 40k terms all the star wars weapons would have high AP values but relatively lower strength.
>Lightsaber: S User, AP-5, DD3
>Blaster: S3 AP-2 D1
>AT-ST Laser: S7 AP-4 D3
>AT-AT Laser: S10 AP-5 D6
I'm sure that in the "Legends" canon (what does the name even mean? Who would tell such stories as "legends"?) the Empire has more varied tanks from all the RTS games. I remember them having this floating tank that looks a lot like the new Primaris tank except smaller and with one weapon in the turret, probably closer to a 40k twin-linked lascannon in damage output.

>Jedi grand master vs marine chapter master. Whew. I dunno. I suppose it depends on how easily the grand master could use the force to affects tons of power armor on the go in combat.
Jedi Masters are fucking pathetic compared to mild psykers and refrain from using their powers at all in a competent manner, in fact Jedi overall behave like utter retards in most Star Wars canon and even the most powerful Jedi such as Mace Windu are absolutely pathetic compared to 40k. Even a line Space Marine has feats league superior to anything the Jedi have. Remember all you need to kill Jedi Knights and even Masters is a bunch of B1's in a perimeter formation firing.

Plus Jedi have no answer against a weapon like a Bolter as they can neither block it or halt it with the Force fast enough. The fastest thing a Jedi/Sith stopped was a blaster bolt, something Kylo Ren demonstrated, and blaster bolts in Star Wars only travel at 60 meters per second. Bolters are high supersonic/hypersonic. Plus Jedi struggle to block normal bullets.

Stat me.

Then again they dont tend to be ripped in part with chainsaws, flesh eating bugs, face distorting acid or melt in front of their eyes.

And said terrorists are stomped like childs play. The Tantive Boarding and Storming of Hoth

Even the teddy bears need a walker to turn the tables once the element of surprise worn off.

>versus the general whole of Warhammer 40k
>Entire Ork race is now united under Ghazghkull Thraka and on a galactic-level WAAAAGH!! through Star Wars galaxy
>Entire Ork race is now all on the same page beliefs-wise under Thraka, meaning their WAAAGH!! field's reality-fuckery power is at critical mass (meaning its probably going to be interfering with Force Powers)
>Gork and Mork are in play
You don't even need to bring in the rest of 40k in a universe vs universe fight. The Star Wars universe, even with the EU, is going to wish it was fighting the ol' Yuuzhan Vong again instead of facing down a WAAAGH!!! made up of the entire Ork species.

Space Marines also are supernaturally fast and also have the reflexes to back it up. Not to mention that they for them, it is not a 'burst' like Force speed power, so they can always use it.
And Space Marines can resist a lot of damage, for them losing an arm isn't that much of a big deal.
AFAIK, while precognition exist as something that all jedi can do, it isn't as strong as you state it to be.
You also aren't considering the combat experience of Space marines which on average is far larger than jedis as they are are on combat more than them and live far longer.

All in all, SMs are literal superhumans enhanced in basically all aspects, who live far longer than human and dedicate their life to combat while jedis are traíned humans with a strong weapon and psychic power with many applications.

Jedis are strong but no way they can take that many marines.

Well, primaris psykers also have a chance of summoning greater daemons and fucking everything for both sides.

Well, I'm treating the melee abilities of a middle-tier Jedi as as good as an Eldar HQ choice in the characteristics that aren't decided by human biology (S3, T3) versus average tactical marines without lightsaber-nullifying power weapons. A Jedi with force-enhanced reflexes isn't just faster at reacting to things that happen, they're responding to things before they have happened. A marine can't deal with that as easily as they could with just a very quick-reflexed combatant like a Dark Eldar or a genestealer. So a Jedi would probably have a 4+ invulnerable save in combat and force -1 to hit on enemies. Add to that that a lightsaber has as good or better armour penetration than a chainfist while still being lighter and nimbler than a regular power sword, and a Jedi is a powerful melee combatant in 40k terms, if fragile and undergunned.

Yeah, they do have at least one hovertank and a MLRS walker; I imagine that the former (if I could remember its name) would actually be particularly effective against IG line armor; it's highly maneuverable, has a strong anti-armor gun, and is shielded. I'm pretty sure it could take at least a standard-pattern Leman Russ mano-a-mano.

Also, Scout Troopers would be another important Empire asset as snipers; Stormtrooper officers are difficult-to-impossible to identify at range, and Stormtroopers have generally high morale, while Imperial officers and Commissars are ostentatiously ornamented and practically the only thing keeping the average Guardsman on the firing line.

Basically this; every Rebel victory is a decapitation strike, because the Alliance gets dumpstered in terms of numbers and armor. This, topically, is why Space Marines are so goddamn dangerous-- decapitation strikes are their job description.

As far as dealing wth the Jedi, what's to stop the Imperium from luring the Jedi somewhere with some IG and then just destroying the whole planet from above? Anytime Jedis show up, just destroy the planet. This would effectively neutralize them, and I don't think the Imperium would care

M5" S4 T4 BS2+ WS2+ W6 Ld9 Sv4+ 4++
Lightsaber: S User AP-5 DD3
Force Choke: Assault 1 S4 No armour saves
Force Push: "Assail" power from 7E more or less, but in 8e homebrew terms: Assault 3+D3 S3, may replace the D3 with a D6 versus units of more than 10 models when attacking at half range.

>Abeloth wins. Everyone else gets eaten.
>Abeloth enters the Warp and instantly ends up the eternal punching bag of pic related because she's the newest entity to enter the Warp near the deity level in 9k-10k years (and that's her 'GOOD ENDING' in this scenario. You don't want to know what her 'BAD END' would be).

You can't take the tabletop rules in something like this though, because SM are vastly under powered on the table compared to the fluff. The tabletop game is designed to be fair-ish to any army

Except this is ultimately a load of horseshit. Firstly if the Marine just pulls out his gun and fires the Jedi falls over dead because Jedi and Sith have no defense against solid projectiles with supersonic to hypersonic velocities. If they try to block it all they do is set it off or melt down the round and get hit with a glob of superheated metal that burns their face off, and it's moving too fast for them to try to dodge it. The blast radius of a bolt shell also means they're toast from a close-proximity detonation due to lacking any armor of any sort.

And when it comes into melee, Power Armor will offer protection against a lightsaber, and a Jedi should be physically incapable of properly parrying a blow from a Space Marine considering their punches are powerful enough to be comparable to cannonballs (turning human torsos into mist with a punch or rending armor with punches). They can't dodge or move that fast as Jedi are not actually superhuman, and have to activate force powers in order to do extra ordinary movements that clearly taxes them given the rarity of its use when it would have otherwise saved their life (such as in the Geonosis Arena).

Finally Space Marines are neither slow or have low reaction times, they're physically faster and mentally faster than Jedi. Eldar are laughably beyond the realm of Jedi as well. Jedi at best would have a 6++ save considering they're ultimately a shitty psyker in some robes with mild precognition abilities that gives them decent defense against a couple shooters firing very specific weapons. They just aren't anywhere near the realm of "I dodge actual lasers" Eldar or "I dodge supersonic bullets after they've been fired" Space Marines and "I also dodge supersonic munitions" Genestealers.

I don't think proton torpedoes are enough. Those are weapons that dwarfs apartement buildings. Not to mention that by Rogue Trader, 40k ships have a lot of point defense, like ww2 ships, probably because 40k don't have effective missiles and so.

I think you are overstimating the strength and AP of some weapons.
Lightsaber is probably S+2 or so, AP seems alright.
Blaster definelly don't have more penetration capacity than bolters which are made to be like that.
AT ST chin gun is probably like a heavy bolter so something like S5 AP -1. The side gun is anti vehicle so around S7 Ap-1 D2 aka a autocannon. Maybe d3 shots or just 2 shots like an autocannon.
AT AT blaster is probably at battle cannon level rather than doomsday cannon(which can vaporize a bunker in a single shot), so Heavy d6 S8 AP -2 d3. Probably more shots due to it having a higher fire rate than battle cannons.

The Imperium has more planets than the Jedi have Jedi. The Imperium could annihilate every planet in the SW universe without bothering to attack the SW army.

The most populated planet in the SW universe is Coruscant with 2 trillion. Necromunda, a generic hive world has 100 billion. How many hive worlds are there? Thousands? That's a lot of bodies.

Honestly, the IoM versus the Empire is the most interesting discussion, which is why it's the only one people talk about. i actually think the Imperium would win overall, but I like playing devil's advocate

>Add to that that a lightsaber has as good or better armour penetration than a chainfist while still being lighter and nimbler than a regular power sword
This is super important, by the way: A lightsaber is essentially weightless, so it can absolutely turn on a dime, unlike weapons with mass. Combine this with force-enhanced reflexes and battle precognition, and a Jedi Knight is going to pretty much dunk on average space marines/banshees in melee.

Precognition isn't so you can dodge the shell after it's fired, it's so you can make sure you're not where the bolter's pointed when the trigger's pulled. The problem with the Geonosis arena was the sheer volume of firepower making it impossible to dodge/parry everything.
Ceremite isn't nearly as tough as cutting through, say, a bulkhead, either, given how easily it's pierced by choppas and nid claws; if a Marine swings at a Jedi with a power fist, he's going to lose his arm.

>Ceremite isn't nearly as tough as cutting through, say, a bulkhead, either, given how easily it's pierced by choppas and nid claws; if a Marine swings at a Jedi with a power fist, he's going to lose his arm.
Choppas and Nid claws are power weapons dumbass. And a Marine isn't losing his arm because he can physically swing a power fist faster than a Jedi is physically capable of moving.

And aim dodging doesn't work either when you're dealing with literal aimbots. Space Marines can use pistols to hit targets 2.5 kilometers away at a flat trajectory behind a truck. Said marine in question fired his bolt pistol at the ground in front of the truck and bounced the shell at the exact angle so it bounced into the body of a woman leaping off the truck bed as the bolt shell was fired. That and aim dodging won't be possible depending upon the velocity of the bolt shells currently loaded, as hypersonic munitions in anything other than absurdly long ranges are lasers for all intents and purposes. Blasters meanwhile are as fast as arrows.

So would you think Jedi vs 40k Custodes rules is a more true comparison? Or would you say Primaris is close enough to accurate?

>no defense against solid projectiles with supersonic to hypersonic velocities
Dodging out of the way because they have fast reflexes and are acting on precognition.
>Power Armor will offer protection against a lightsaber
About as much as it offers against plasma weapons.
>a Jedi should be physically incapable of properly parrying a blow from a Space Marine
They wouldn't be parrying it, they'd be dodging it.
>They can't dodge or move that fast
But they can? Rewatch the phantom menace fight scene and see how they're all flipping around mid-fight and blocking strikes before they're even made, without even looking at the person striking them. A space marine is too big to move *himself* that fast (even if his strikes and parries are at the same speed as a jedi), and most critically, they don't have foreknowledge of when and where the enemy is going to hit them, they just rely on their reflexes to predict where that will be and/or move their body to react as soon as they see what's happening. It's why a 7E psyker who cast Warp Speed, Forewarning, and Precognition was so much more powerful than the model without those buffs.
So if we treat a Jedi as a WS2+ company commander with a -5AP power sword, adding a 4++ invuln, re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound, re-rolls on any saving throws, and 3 extra points of attack and initiative turns them into an extremely deadly melee combatant.

Yes, Geonosis is like being surrounded with twenty units of 50 conscripts surrounding you 12" away, and they all get to take overwatch at full ballistic skill with rerolls. Not even hammernators are getting away from that.

>Blaster definelly don't have more penetration capacity than bolters which are made to be like that.
Storm troopers wear full-body armour made of some kind of future tech, and blasters one-shot them all the time. Whereas guardsmen have the same if not more defence against lasweapons.
Generally speaking I'd say most Star Wars laser weapons are equivalent to 40k las weapons in strength, but about 2 points better in AP.

>Implying Abeloth wouldn't absorb Gork and Mork into her being the moment she strays upon them.
Oh user...

The Force = WAAAAAGGHHH

>because SM are vastly under powered on the table compared to the fluff.
>because -insert 40k faction here- is vastly underpowered on the table compared to the fluff

Seriously, its not just Marines who get kneecap'd in order to balance things out. Orks, Eldar, Nids, and everyone else put up with that as well.

If we're giving Lightsabers a Strength stat, I'd say the Strength is more user-based (a 'cyborg chainsaw of lightsabers like General Grievous definitely would have a (much) higher Strength stat than the average Jedi Knight), but it would have an AP of -3 or -4 with D3 Damage.

>given how easily it's pierced by choppas and nid claws
For the sake of argument, its worth noting just how strong the ones wielding those claws and choppas are. The average Yoof (a young, inexperienced Ork) can rip apart a human with his bare hands without breaking a sweat. Putting that much strength behind a simple Choppa is more than enough to break through Ceramite. Same for Nid claws. They're just that strong.

>Choppas and Nid claws are power weapons dumbass.
>Nid Claws
>Choppas
>Power weapons.

lolwut. A Choppa can just be a crude slab of metal that looks vaguely cleaver-shaped if an Ork's being particularly lazy. And Nid claws are just claws attached to strong Nid bioforms.

>AP -5

Did you see how hard it was for them to cut that door in the opening scene of Episode I? Sabers would bounce off ceramite unless the marine was stationary.

>Anything vs. 40k

YOU FOOL! Do you not understand that in Warhammer 40k, reality is so oppressively grim, dark, and cruel that even a naked, unarmed, malnourished farmer can wipe out entire universes of any other piece of fiction?

The fart of the common guardsman will eat through an entire hive of Alien Xenomorphs and IMPREGNATE THE QUEEN WITH FERVOR FOR DA EMPRAH!

Your precious Saitama will even get wrecked by a half-dead Sister of battle.

The Almighty God of Abrhamic faith? a quivering pussy to be fucked by a common ant from any agriworld from the 40k-universe!

BECAUSE WARHAMMER 40K CAN NEVER BE TOPPED!

DO NOT QUESTION THE MIGHTY GLORY OF WARHAMMER 40K! JUST ACCEPT IT! AND IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE AN SJW TUMBLRINA REDDITOR QUEER AUTIST!

There, that sum things up for Veeky Forums?

>Dodging out of the way because they have fast reflexes and are acting on precognition.
Jedi don't have fast reflexes, they are normal humans with force powers. They look like they're fast because their precognition allows them to react to something in advance. However that's not going to save them against literal aimbots who can pop you at obscene distances. That and even a near miss from a high velocity 19mm shell is going to do bad things to the human body.

>About as much as it offers against plasma weapons.
Plasma Guns are ridiculously more powerful than lightsabers and are not at all comparable. Plasma Guns are capable of not only of outright vaporizing marine sized targets, but will set fire to things with near-misses, causing human flesh to spontaneously combust. Comes with the advantage of IOM plasma being 2 million degrees Fahrenheit.

>They wouldn't be parrying it, they'd be dodging it.
You can't dodge a swing that is greater than your reach dude. As a fencer the idea that you can somehow dodge the swing of an enemy with a sword longer than your body attatched to an arm longer to yours is farcical even with precognition. You're going to get tagged and you're going to die. And that's not taking into account Space Marine super-speed, as they move faster than anything Jedi have fought.

>But they can?
They can't. What you see in the movies is not remotely comprable to 40k. Eldar dodge lightspeed weapons after they have been fired. Space Marines dodge supersonic and hypersonic rounds after they have been fired. Virtually everything in 40k is downright superhuman, including even the bog standard "humans" in 40k (who do odd things like swing around impossibly heavy chainswords without tiring). A Jedi is simply out of scale compared to 40k, everything is too powerful for them. Even a fucking Guardsmen would be a serious threat to a Jedi considering they have a lightspeed full auto gun.

>vs the general whole of Warhammer 40k,
so Vortex Weapons are go?

Imperium wins, through sheer virtue of will

Can you try to be any more dishonest? Stormtrooper Armor is garbage that doesn't protect against anything. Stormtroopers get concussed by Teddy Bears with the lifting strength of a literal child and Clone Armor is pierced by ordinary Javelins. Flak armor in 40k meanwhile is capable of tanking a shot from a 50. caliber sniper rifle with some reliability.

It'd do yourself well to actually fucking familiarize yourself with 40k's lore and stop focusing so much on game mechanics that mean nothing.

Dude, an eldar physical reaction is almost too fast for a human to see. And that is just average eldar, not even the snowflakes.
And also, a 4++ is like being able to phase out of existence(phase shifter) and a -1 to hit is what flyers get(you know, even those who are supersonic). You are wanking in a bit too much or putting too much faith into game mechanics.

Since when did jedis have the pure strength to punch through a block of concrete, the toughness to resist small arms fire, that muxh fucking wounds and that Leadership, which is greater than people who literally know no fear and only second to unthinking robots.
Your Jedi stat sheet durability might be more comparable to a necron than anything human desu.
You put them on solid superhuman even not considering the force.

Being honest, the power armor won't offer that much protection, seeing that power weapons can slice through it without much problem.
And the bolter explosion radius isn't good as it is meant to be exploded inside the target.

So... Blasters are better at penetrating shit than fucking bolters which are rockets with depleted uranium tips?
Storm trooper armor isn't better than power armor and blasters aren't MEQ killers.

>lolwut. A Choppa can just be a crude slab of metal that looks vaguely cleaver-shaped if an Ork's being particularly lazy. And Nid claws are just claws attached to strong Nid bioforms.
Choppas are wreathed in WHAAAGH energy and able to cleave apart tank armor and Nid claws are honed to monomolecular points that also allows them to cleave through tank armor. That and both can parry power swords without being vaporized or melted. Virtually all melee weapons in 40k tend to be monomolecular, including combat knives.

>Be Princeps of the Warlord Titan
>Be deployed on some shitty ice world.
>Sensori shouts, "Contact!"
>Moderati cants to me, "It's like these are...quadrupedal crawlers? It looks like a malnourished grox."
>Thinking wtfisthisshit.pict "[Visual. All forward, ready destructor.]"
>Moderati "Aye, my Princeps."
>See what looks like a small herd of skinny, clumsy, lanky imitations of cyberhorses.
>They open fire with dozens of laser pulses.
>Moderati: "Shields are stable."
>[Did someone drop a fish in my tank? I feel like something just prodded me.]
>Crew laughs.
>Troops disembark from these strange walkers, more and more laser blasts plink off of our void shields.
>Moderati: "My Princeps?"
>[Ah-ha-haha... Ohhhh go ahead and just give them a taste of the bolter.]
>Moderati: "Solution ready, firing."
>Mega Bolter shreds through strange walkers and the troopers who weren't taken out in the impact, barrage, debris or resulting explosions all flee.

>Being honest, the power armor won't offer that much protection, seeing that power weapons can slice through it without much problem.
Lightsabers are not equal of Power Weapons either as they do not have mass, and the method of which they cut through things is different. Lightsabers are hot, Power Weapons are wreathed in a molecular dissolving field allowing the respective weapon to sheer/crush through the weakened material like toilet paper.

>And the bolter explosion radius isn't good as it is meant to be exploded inside the target.
It is if a Jedi is stupid enough to try to block it with their lightsaber and sets off the explosive pin, or the bolt simply hits the ground and detonates, or bounces off the ground and detonates.

>Dodging out of the way because they have fast reflexes and are acting on precognition.
Those are faster than modern bullets, much faster than a human can react. Though I do give it to you that jedis have a much better reflex than humans.

>They wouldn't be parrying it, they'd be dodging it.
At point blank?
I guess you don't see the difference between dodging something at supersonic speeds at your face vs at 200 meters away.

>WS2+ company commander with a -5AP power sword, adding a 4++ invuln, re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound, re-rolls on any saving throws, and 3 extra points of attack and initiative turns them into an extremely deadly melee combatant.

wtf is even, do you even understand what are you saying?
Not even fucking Orikan, someone who literally time travels back in time get all those stuff.
Just the 4++ alone is like a necron phase shifter, which can make the wearer incorporeal to let stuff go through.

Not true and you know it. And also you have to understand how over the top 40k is with stuff and scale.

A general rule of thumb for power levels

Looney Tunes > 40k > Everything else.

Fine then, a lightsaber has as much power as a spurt of superheated plasma. AP-4

>Jedi don't have fast reflexes
You're splitting hairs here. They might not have physical nerves and muscles as quick as space marines, but they are swordsmen trained from toddler age, and have midichlorians which can grant their muscles temporary movement much faster than their species would normally have, and generate force exterior to their body to move them out of the way. Ad to that the fact that they literally have the ability to see things for their reflexes to react two at least a second faster than beings without the force, and they are moving at least as quickly as a space marine, with smaller, nimbler bodies, with the ability to move themselves without momentum, in reaction to events that haven't happened yet, and yes, a Jedi can dodge things and inflict blows faster than a space marine could.

>Stormtroopers get concussed by Teddy Bears with the lifting strength of a literal child
We don't know that Ewoks don't have ork-tier strength, and even space marines can be killed by grots.
The Empire gives its stormtroopers full-body armour because it must be better against *something* than simply not wearing body armour, whereas in 40k lasguns regularly fail to bounce off armour that looks about as complicated as IRL flak armour, not full-body armour made out of some cast material.
>fucking familiarize yourself with 40k's lore
Guardsmen are not running out there surviving against 50 caliber bullets like it's nothing in the fluff, even if in the crunch they do.

Weapons like that are pretty much exactly what you want to bomb. The point defences were why I asked, though-- "throw TIEs at the problem until it goes away" is a big part of Empire naval strategy.

Fortunately, no self-respecting ork would use a lightsaber; they may be ded killy, but they aren't proppa choppy in the slightest.

Regarding the ongoing Jedi argument, however, Space Marines DO have a sure-kill weapon: Meltaguns. There's pretty much fuckall lightsabers and precog can do against having a superheated microwave shotgun unloaded in your face (and promptly melting it off). A force-push cone could dissipate the blast, perhaps, but the Jedi's going to tire out before the Marine runs out of ammunition.

Yeah, Titans are probably the one thing the Empire has absolutely no surface-to-surface response to whatsoever.
>Knights
Grav tanks can outflank their ion shields, and massed stormtroopers can spam concussion grenades at it.
>Warhounds
Hit it with high altitude TIE bombers until it dies.

...

this man get's it

>Fine then, a lightsaber has as much power as a spurt of superheated plasma. AP-4

Which is AP -3...

>implying Abeloth could absorb one warp god, let alone the two of the most powerful gods in the Warp
Sorry, Abeloth's consciousness absorbing ability isn't THAT strong.

But seriously, her other options are
>run into shard of Emps, get obliterated on the spot for being a powerful xenos abomination
>end up ANOTHER puppet of Tzeentch
>a 'taster' for whatever diseases Nurgle's got cooking in his pot
>grabbed by Khorne and used as a makeshift cudgel to go beat off Slaanesh with (he kinda broke Khaine the last time he did that
>Slaanesh's newest plaything (BAD END)

Wouldn't it just need to hoover up daemons en masse until it got big enough to settle in as a chaos god (equivalent)?

Advanced rule of thumb:
40k > Forerunner/Flood > Everything Else