I just want to get something off my chest and don't know where else to post it so ignore as you like:

Kind of you to troll so blatantly but out of curiosity, why? What's to be gained by making Babies of the Ring or whatever?

>I hate nice things and want to ruin them for everyone so a few people I find personally annoying will be unhappy
This is what you are saying. Just ignore annoying people, dumbass.

>Babies of the Ring
nigger you know we'd both watch that shit

Fuck that. I'm not so thirsty as to drink sewer water. Do you think I'm playing that iPhone game?

Because you thought this thread couldn't get any shittier.

>Tolkien elitists ruin this for everybody
This is similar to those humans who feel compelled to inform wrestling fans that it isn't real. With regards to Tolken's lore, sure, he probably wouldn't support SoM and it does contradict much of what he established, but are either of those truly the intention of the game? I don't believe so and I don't understand why partakers of fanfiction would allow their fun to be ruined by it.

>Shelob was an unsung hero of LotR
This is truly the darkest timeline.

I hate this more than anything. Is it real?

Why?

So they wanted an antiGaladriel and decided to use the existing name instead of doing their own goddamn job?

No, he was hoping for paintings and poetry, which he got, but by the time the Silmarillion was coming out it was clear media culture was on a different trajectory than that of canon epics. The level of purism that exists is an affirmation of his work's high stature, and the mass media artifacts that seep out have to get through that wall of cultural judgement to stand much of a chance. Its not poetry, but its something.

Its also worth noting that a lot of the Mass media stuff is dealing with subjects and points he himself was turned off by and unhappy with conceptually. It might be a stretch, but he might be entirely pleased to be put off and unhappy with the story of the annexation of Mordor, or a detailed ASIOF style sex and blood tale of the corruption of Numenor. It would really be in keeping with the story, but its parts of the story undeserving of epic history of lofty tales.

OP here. I agree. I don't go on tumblr and tell the Melkor/Mairon fags they're fags and I don't know why people would do so for SoW. But when they do and people start acting like people who obsessively research and catalog Tolkien's lore, those who *really* love it, are the core problem it pisses me off.

Shadow of War continues the narrative from Shadow of Mordor, following Talion who is still infused with the spirit of the elf lord Celebrimbor. Talion and Celebrimbor travel to Mt. Doom, where they forge a new Ring of Power free of Sauron's corruption. However, once the Ring is complete, Celebrimbor is abducted and held hostage by Shelob, who asks Talion to hand over the Ring in exchange for Celebrimbor. Talion reluctantly agrees and gives the Ring to Shelob, who claims they have a common enemy in Sauron. She uses the Ring to see into the future and directs Talion to the last Gondorian stronghold in Mordor, Minas Ithil, which is under siege by Sauron's forces due to the city's possession of a valuable Palantir. The Palantir would allow whoever possesses it to see anything they wish, making it a valuable tool for Celebrimbor and a dangerous weapon for Sauron.

Talion travels to Minas Ithil and quickly comes to odds with Celebrimbor. Talion wants to help his fellow Gondorians, while Celebrimbor believes the city is already lost and the retrieval of the Palantir must take priority. Talion reasons that protecting Minas Ithil will also protect the Palantir and he meets up with the city's defenders: General Castamir, his daughter Idril, and his lieutenant Baranor. Together, they sabotage Orcish efforts to break into the city until Castamir betrays them, allowing the Orcs to breach the gates and handing over the Palantir to the Witch King of Angmar in return for sparing Idril. Castamir is killed by the Witch-King and Talion is barely able to escape thanks to the help of Eltariel, an Elven assassin working on Galadriel's behalf. The Witch King seizes Minas Ithil, renaming it Minas Morgul. With the Palantir, Sauron realizes that Shelob is holding Celebrimbor's Ring and sends the Nazgûl to attack her. Talion is able to save Shelob, who returns the Ring to him and tells him that the fate of Middle Earth is in his hands.

With the Ring back in his possession, Talion begins to use its power to dominate Orcs and build his army. During this time, he assists Idril and Baranor rescue survivors, helps the forest god Carnen defeat the Balrog Tar Goroth, help Ratbag defeat a traitor, and hunt the Nazgûl alongside Eltariel. Eventually, Talion builds up enough strength to assault Sauron's fortress. During the battle, Talion faces Isildur, now corrupted into a Nazgûl. Talion manages to defeat Isildur, but upon seeing his memories of how he was corrupted, decides to destroy Isildur and release his spirit rather than dominate him. Celebrimbor remarks angrily that Isildur would have been a valuable asset to their cause, leading Talion to realize that Celebrimbor's desire for revenge makes him no different from Sauron. Talion refuses to follow Celebrimbor's orders any more, causing the wraith to abandon him and possess Eltariel instead.

Without Celebrimbor, Talion begins to die, but is visited by Shelob in a vision. Shelob informs him that if Talion had gone on to fight Sauron, they'd have succeeded and Celebrimbor would have enslaved Sauron and marched on the rest of Middle Earth. She implores Talion to continue to fight to contain the darkness within Mordor. Deciding to put his fate in his own hands, Talion picks up the Ring of Power Isildur was wearing to preserve his own life. He then uses the power of Isildur's Ring to assault and seize Minas Morgul, defeating the Witch King in the process. Talion then takes possession of the Palantir and observes Celebrimbor and Eltariel making their assault on Sauron. The two manage to gain the upper hand and Celebrimbor attempts to dominate Sauron, only for Sauron to cut off Eltariel's ring finger and merge himself with Celebrimbor. As a result, Sauron and Celebrimbor remain trapped in Sauron's tower as their spirits continue to battle for dominance. Talion decides to use Minas Morgul as a fortress to keep Sauron's forces contained in Mordor.

This. Anyone who thinks Christopher is being unreasonable in his aversion to adaptations don't understand that in this he's truly his father's son. Even when I disagree I respect him, and anyone who enjoys anything from the lore beyond the books published in Tolkien's lifetime owe him a great debt of gratitude.

Many decades later, Talion eventually succumbs to the corruption of Isildur's Ring, and joins Sauron's forces as a Nazgûl, where he goes with the others to hunt Frodo and the One Ring. However, with the destruction of Sauron and the One Ring, Talion dies with the rest of the Nazgûl and his spirit is freed. He is last seen in the afterlife discarding his weapons and armor as he walks off into the sunrise.

OP here. Joke's on you; I beat the game.
Sauron fight was dope.

I don't want to inadvertently support anyone who is trying to pass off alternate time lines as canon or intentionally misrepresent Tolkens mythology, simply that those who enjoy SoW enjoy it exactly for the reasons pedants/legionnaire/elitists don't, and they should accept that burden. I also don't oppose opposition to the fanfictioneers simply because they serve to check any inroads to distortion.

You mean how he took his father's random notes that weren't fit to print, saw dollar signs, then printed them against his father's wishes after he had died? No, fuck that money grubbing parasite. The Silmarillion never should have been printed and I hope Chris Tolkein gets raped by the devil in hell for his greed.

What would need to be done to SoW to make the series lore-friendly?

No, it's pretty fucking clear that the people who made SoW think that they're as smart as, or smarter then, the original mythology.

Burn it, its writers and promotors and fans...

Shelob works as anti-Galadriel, get over it.

No, it's pretty fucking clear that a neet in his mom's basement knows more than a bunch of successful people making money hand over fist.
kys

>Being one of the children of an 'Elder Evil Spider' that predates Middle-Earth

Expanded Lore and fan fiction is fine, encouraged even, but not when it completely undermines, contradicts and renders moot the work of fiction that allowed it's creation. In no way should this of been allowed, the game should of been made as a new IP with a clear and noted inspiration from Tolkien.

The only reason it features Tolkien's work is a cash-grab to widen the audience, much like the cancer inspired DLC. The studio is morally bankrupt.

Adding on to this.
>Stole Assassin's Creed assets
>Micro-transactions
>Loot boxes
>Promote a dead employee in order to sell more DLC
>Originally say we'll give some of the money made, from a few States (None from global sales) to the estate of the Family

Morally bankrupt indeed.

The problem I have with Shadow of War isn't in adaptation, but that their adaptation goes against the spirit of the original work.

JRR Tolkein did not write his books to be "Morally Grey". In fact, they were written in direct opposition to that kind of thing. It was a work coming from a man who had been through and seen hell, and wanted to create something pure, with a clear delineation between good and evil - one that perhaps he could no longer find in life. The whole of the works are an elegy for simplicity, a call for the virtues of romanticism.

The original Shadow of Morder played fast and loose with the fiction of the setting but it did not contradict the fundamental spirit of the work - Celebrimbor and Talion were never "right". They were Anti-Heroes, doomed individuals condemned by their methods.

The entire idea that Shelob is a secret hero of the setting and that Galadriel was an amoral manipulator who sent people to their deaths, however, *IS* in defiance of the spirit of the setting. It's a clumsy attempt to introduce "depth" in a setting already so deep it would be impossible to explore in a single lifetime (Tolkien certainly wasn't able to), and the jab at being morally grey is a blatant affectation out of place with the work. It's lazy and disrespectful - at best the work of ego of a "fan" intent on enforcing their own flawed view on the mythos, at worst a cynical cash grab for the financial value seen in "low" fantasy with "grey" morality, ala "Game of Thrones is so hot right now".

That is why this game is worse than the first one. Because of the deranged fiats of the lead writer. Because instead of exploring new characters they simply grabbed famous names from a bucket and made them ring wraiths, even when it made no sense. It's lazy, exploitative, and filled with someone elses ego rather than love - they thought about how clever they were as they penned it, and how stupid the audience was. And it is that disregard I cannot abide.

...

>muh spirit of the original
Jesus Christ you guys really know how to prove an op's point.....

Blind hatred of another human being's creativity is a Melkor thing, senpai. You need to stahp.

Why not have Gandalf a Menthol?

ah, I see, no discussion here, only bait.

Yes, I suppose to a degenerate post modern cynic with no value systems beyond the endorsement of the personal truth (which is always true, irregardless of how it may clash with reality or the truths of others) would see giving a care about something beyond my own likes or dislikes as overblown, or even simply coverage for embittered personal vendetta. Evil cannot comprehend good, after all.

I apologize for having a dissenting opinion about a treasured childhood memory based on something other than my own myopic satisfaction. Please, let me rephrase.

Your shit is fucking dumb and gay, lmao faggit

Congratulations on being bootyblasted and giving the people you dislike exactly what they want. The fact that you put more effort into replying to them than they did to you only makes it worse.

He put forward his reasoning for his position and is willing to defend it. Why not respond with reason and a position of your own?

I don't really have a position though. We all know it's pretty fucking awful fanfiction, and we all know its been awful since the first game. But we ain't here for Tolkien, we're here for orcs, branding, and the Nemesis system. And for all those, you can just pirate the damn thing. I've just been baited, haven't I

>irregardless
kekkles
>evil cannot comprehend good
Nor good evil, it seems.
You are clearly new, friend. Perhaps y'all would benefit from a thorough re-read of the OP...y'all are in a troll thread, famalams.
Do please go on, though.

It's a book, calm down.

Didn't Tolkien openly express regret over making a lot of the original LotR imagery so black and white?

Also, Talión is repeatedly shown to be far more morally upstanding than Celebrimbor, to the point that a large section of their interactions are disagreements over what to do next, with Talión screaming at the wraith multiple times and lambasting him over exactly who and what they're fighting for - the people and fate of Middle-Earth. He's an unconventional hero, but a hero nonetheless.

And furthermore, you fixating on Shelob and the "unsung hero" comment is unfairly representing the situation. Shelob is never considered to be on the side of good at any point, humoring Talion's requests for visions, and Galadriel's servants fully know the risks they take in service to her. A few out of context quotes does not a strong argument make.

>express regret over making LOTR so black and white

No, if anything the opposite. He expressed regret over the idea that Orks couldn't be redeemed, because he was a Christian and believed in the ultimate redemptive power of good.

The article explicitly states that the writer see's Gandalf and Galadriel as manipulators who lied to the fellowship, and Shelob as "evil but honest"

And "Powerful women"? Shelob is A GIANT FUCKING SPIDER

>He expressed regret over the idea that Orks couldn't be redeemed
B-but user: redeemable orks would be the literal definition of 'grey area'....I don't think you english too good, user.
And Shelob is not a giant fucking spider, she just chooses to look like one. She is an unfathomable alien entity of pure darkness.

>redeemable orks would be the literal definition of 'grey area'

No, irredeemable orks is the grey area, because you run into the issue of Orks being condemned for their nature, for being born.

Shelob furthermore is the CHILD of an entity of pure darkness. An entity that was so hungry and hated creation so much it ate itself.

Grey areas according to Tolkien:
>Boy, I sure wish my story had some hope for the villains to see the light.

Grey areas according to the game devs:
>Boy, we better make the good guys a little worse and the bad guys a little better. That's sure to get the Game of Thrones audience.

We live in a grey world, user - why must you insist on such childish nonsense? Seriously, this is not a game for kiddies - it's designed for a mature audience. How do you not get this?

your bait is obvious as to be sarcastic

but it lets me post C.S. Lewis which is nice

Well, user, you can tell yourself that the world is sunshine and lollipops, and get yer shit pushed in. Or, you can accept reality and, um, grow up. I know it may hurt your feefees, but all them grown ups really are out to get you and take your shit, if they're not busy ignoring you because you ain't worth their time.
You keep playing with the kids, and let the grown ups play more grown up things.

For your sake I hope you're being deliberately ironic.

Legacy of Kain died for this.

What's ironic about the fact that everyone must fend for themselves in adult society? There's no king to save you, no noble knights to uphold justice and the poor, no pure wizards who want nothing but the common good. ALL of that is fantasy. Modern society is run with money, not kindness, not love, not Illuvatar: money. You are familiar with modern history, right?

Here's your (You) you desperately wanted, I guess?

Cynicism is not enlightenment.

Neither is naivete, user. Wake up.

*tips fedora*

...

Who hurt you?

I blatantly stole so much shit from the Legacy of Kain series and the Witcher books for my own setting.

Hey I didn't mean for this to be a troll thread.

Heeeey I'm jrrrrrrrrr tollken I'ma rite sum books bases on the kelava. LOOOOOOOK @ MEEEEEEEE i knamed muh weezard wand elf. I'ma fugin jenyisssss. Y'all Tolkien fags are fags.

I remember the times when trolling was a art.

Given the direction Dark Sun was going in we may have dodged a bullet on this one.

Except for the fact that all of the moral greyness literally comes back to bite them in the ass.

Celebrimbor goes full on 'Bright Lord, Dark Lord what's the difference?' and winds up fueling Saurons power when he confronts him.
Talion meanwhile succumbs to a ring in his quest of defeating Sauron with his own tools and tactics and a few decades later becomes a full on Ringwraith subservient to the Witch King and Sauron.

For all of the actions undertaken by the pair it's still a pair of Hobbits with inordinate courage and goodness that saved the world while Celebrimbor and Talion literally end up furthering the goals of Sauron until their freed.

...

Is this some sort of clever ruse?

>JRR Tolkein did not write his books to be "Morally Grey"
I disagree. Tolkien's books have several morally grey aspects, and only people whose knowledge of Tolkien comes from people like Moorcock (who I believe has never read Tolkien, at least based on his criticism) think so. Even the Hobbit which is the most child like and simplistic has morally grey characters. I think you define Tolkien's work way heavily via the first chapters of LoTR.
>The entire idea that Shelob is a secret hero of the setting and that Galadriel was an amoral manipulator who sent people to their deaths, however, *IS* in defiance of the spirit of the setting.
The more you read of Galadriel you come to realize she isn't exactly a good character. She left to Middle Earth because she wanted to be a ruler in a new land. Galadriel was one of the minority of Elves who left to Middle Earth because they were convinced by Fëanor's arguments (instead of just loyalty to him) of conquest and unclaimed lands. She's very ambivalent towards Sauron conquerind Middle Earth (yes, the rings being destroyed means they'd lose their home but this does not stop Elrond from actually trying to stop Sauron) and almost is corrupted by the ring. I think there's no problem with depicting Galadriel as an amoral manipulator, she is a very amoral and selfish character slightly wisened by age. I think if they made Elrond a manipulative schemer, you'd have a point. But with Galadriel, it fits.

And note that I don't think having a strictly defined "good" and "evil", and romanticizing virtues means the setting can't have morally grey things in it. I don't necessarily disagree with your whole post, but I'd say your problem is more with making Tolkien cynical instead of morally grey.

Oh and making Shelob good is retarded. She's not good. Ungoliant and her spawn suck dick.

I think you are mistaking Morally grey for good characters being corrupted by greed/power/evil. Thorin starts off good, then becomes corrupted by greed. However, he puts this aside when a greater threat comes.

Man for a second I thought I was on Veeky Forums.

a) How does being "corrupted" (especially when in Tolkien's works, corruption always draws strength from the fears of the one being corrupted and are never solely just "this thing turned him evil for no reason) discount them from being morally grey? I do think that most morally grey characters are just that, they have some virtues and some sins. and b) I wasn't talking about Thorin, I was talking about Galadriel. Who is never corrupted, nor swayed really. It's very much stated that ruthless ambition and desire to rule is in her blood.

The solely good characters in the Silmarilion for example can be counted with just one hand. Most characters are morally grey.

The Hobbit movies made me do a complete 180 on Christopher Tolkien.

The mans a hero.

For what it's worth, Shelob only really has a minor role, and the plot fits. Talion and Celembrimbor fail miserably. Celebrimbor gets absorbed by Sauron and Talion gets turned into a Ringwraith.

Talion is freed, years later, when the One Ring is destroyed. He dies, like the rest of the Nine, and passes on.

Well, most of the Silmarilion consists of fighting against the literal devil. Im saying that most of the Bad guys are clearly evil to the core, while the Good guys are generally good. i don't remember any mass executions of prisoners or use of allies as cannon fodder in the Simarillion. Morals have nothing to do with a desire to rule. Morals affect actions and intentions, not desires.

As to Corruption, Thorin doesn't fear becoming corrupted, he simply becomes corrupted after he gains full ownership of the Treasure of Erebor. Also, it affects the other dwarves, the only ones who seem reasonably unaffected are Fili and Kili, who grab harps and instruments, and begin playing them, as opposed to obsessing over the treasure.

>nigger you know we'd both watch that shit
Not that user, but I would not.
What about, say, "Fellowship of the Ring Go!"

Lord help me, I want to draw this now.
Thank god I don't have time.

>Well, most of the Silmarilion consists of fighting against the literal devil
Morality in the silmarilion is not decided on whether you are fighting against Melkor or not. Fighting Melkor does not make you a good guy.
>Im saying that most of the Bad guys are clearly evil to the core
Not really though. Only Melkor is, because Melkor is the definition of evil. Even Sauron genuinely repents after the War of Wrath, but is too ashamed and prideful to fully submit to the justife of the Valar and instead hides and grows spiteful.
>i don't remember any mass executions of prisoners or use of allies as cannon fodder in the Simarillion
The good guys periodically genocide the Orcs. Whether it be Dwarves, Men or Elves.
>use of allies as cannon fodder in the Simarillion
This is extremely dishonest. You use the one example that the good guys don't do as the definition of what is evil. I might as well say that Melkor is good because he doesn't attack his friends and supposed allies outright because of what is essentially pride and greed. The good guys don't use their allies as cannon fodder, but they do backstab and attack each other quite regularly.
>Morals have nothing to do with a desire to rule
This is just your morality. I think it says of someones morality that when they hear of a land with no strong civilization and power structure they think of conquest and rulership.
>Morals affect actions and intentions, not desires.
Actions and intentions are done to achieve our desires..
cont.

>As to Corruption, Thorin doesn't fear becoming corrupted
I think you missed my point. I said corruption in the Legendarium draws from the fears and doubts of the one being corrupted, not that the one being corrupted fears corruption. Saruman is corrupted because he genuinely wants to help Middle Earth beat Sauron, but Sauron manipulates this desire to turn Saruman "evil". Boromir wants to save his people, and the Ring draws from this. Granted, Thorin does just succumb to greed but it is a childrens story. I still do not see however how this takes away from his moral greyness. Thorin reacts to a morally ambiguous situation with an answer that isn't good or bad, in the Hobbit.

>I remember the times when trolling was an art.
Me too.

Well I mean the definition of trolling has changed. Now it just means acting like an asshole to get replies, it used to mean elaborately tricking others.

>not making him the mouth of Sauron
At least he would have a charming smile then.

This sums up the issue really. It's just the worst way to do grey.

Well they have one thing for them. As a company they may be bankrupt but you know someone must have sprung for the cliff notes enough to remember some of the setting.

user, do you not remember the kinslayings?

Galadriel was swayed, though overcame the temptation. Do you not remember that scene? It was rather intense for you to forget. It's not just wizened by age, the immense period of time between then and the war of the ring was such that the pride and desire to rule that had led her to return to middle earth had long cooled to a memory, flared up for a moment by the offer of the ring. Like most high elves, she's there to make sure things turn out okay before she leaves. You don't need to twist Galadriel to have grey characters: they could just use someone else.

This is precisely why I refused to play the first one. It's basically a fantasy game that uses LOTR branding for sales. That's it. The story is heavily shoe-horned in there.

This type of opportunism and lack of genuine creativity will always be reflected in the final product (which is why the games are shit). Don't trust a people who don't have the confidence to write a compelling story which will stand on it's own to make a good game.

Of course I'm generously assuming that the story was meant to have any substance and wasn't simply EA cashing in on LOTR's popularity.

...

Stoya starting to show her age?

>Stoya starting to show her age?
That's just imperfect in-game graphics.

...

>The more you read of Galadriel you come to realize she isn't exactly a good character.

So when did your parents find out you were retarded?

>"instead Gollum succeeds where he cannot (albeit tumbling into the fire himself along the way)."

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.' (Return of the King, Book 6, chapter 3)

I am of the mind that it's pretty concrete that Frodo cursing Gollum is what sent him over the edge de Plater, unless you failed to read the book and went "Fuck it."

It should be noted that Gollum was only able to destroy the ring accidentally because Frodo spared him.

Frodo was a witch all along! It makes perfect sense.

>unless you failed to read the book and went "Fuck it."

Pretty sure that this is what happened.

>Shelob wanted to improve the parties efficiency and destroy the ring by eating Frodo
Lol what? If Frodo died, Gollum would take the ring and fuck off until a Nazgul caught him and middle earth would be destroyed. Alternatively Sam could kill Gollum, take the ring and save the day but I don't think he was that resistant to it.

Shelobs only agenda was being an evil spider that wanted to eat things. What kind of shit is that guy smoking?

>Shelob is darkness and Galadriel is light
>they're two powerful women
No, because one of them is a giant spider.

>Only Melkor is, because Melkor is the definition of evil. Even Sauron genuinely repents after the War of Wrath, but is too ashamed and prideful to fully submit to the justice of the Valar and instead hides and grows spiteful.
"Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment." - The Silmarillion

"When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West." - The Silmarillion

Sauron did the exact same thing Morgoth did in Valinor, put up a false front and fled.

Same was very resistant to the Ring. It couldn't even tempt him with anything. Problem was he didn't want anything, including being a hero. He just wanted to go home and have a quiet life. He probably would have ended up giving up at some point if someone wasn't pushing him. But he would never have given into the Ring itself.