Previous thread: >>55874161

Once you're in the hedge, you're there forever. Congrats on being another Power Stat 10 entity that deals in contracts trapped in the hedge!

>Once you're in the hedge, you're there forever.
Yeah, that sounds accurate.

If Demon was a big 3, you know demonfags would be saying dumb shit like that Loud Demons are better at being fey than True Fae.

A Changeling would be able to help escape, but you'd need to be able to recruit their help. Hope you had a second cover before you went loud!

Unless you have Fate 4. Or Space. Time even.

>Hope you had a second cover before you went loud!

Yeah, its not even viable unless you bring extra covers. Having a few burners to purge your damage track a few times isn't the worst plan.

>but you'd need to be able to recruit their help
And grabbing one by the neck and telling them that you'll brutally murder them if they don't help you get out won't be enough?

Yes, let's just inject mages into the equation shall we? You also seal a contract when entering. so even mages can't get out. they can only force their way in.

>You also seal a contract when entering. so even mages can't get out. they can only force their way in.
No. Mages can create and force doors with Fate.

Fate can rip their way in and out of the Hedge. Maybe even Arcadia. Space is space. Time will enable you to have never entered in the first place.

Why would you do this? Just don't reply. Don't engage them.

Ah yes, the PC go to persuasion tactic, brilliant.

Magefags. What is your end goal?

There is one hidden mechanic that makes demons the best at something: they can use their Cover as supernatural tolerance. This makes them capable of resisting powers well above their powerstat would normally imply.

Supernatural Tolerance isn't added to Withstand though, so when it comes to Mages that's kind of a nonfactor.

I don't know what kind of groups you play with, but as a Demon whose burned his cover and is in a situation where there's no other way out, that's an entirely sensible tactic.

Sure you could try and be nice, but you're guaranteed better results with brutal, overwhelming force and threats.
And you no longer have a cover to worry about.

The Mage supremacy! IT BURNS!

Problem is that you're an inhuman pactmaker trapped in the Hedge. To quite a few changelings you're pretty damn like a True Fae.

Why do you ass bandits have to involve Mage in everything. We weren't even talking about it.

>thread starts with "do mages really deserve to be the strongest?"
>make a reply about how if demons could be at their best more they could be a better contender
>somebody replies and says that they have a way to get good supernatural tolerance
>point out that that doesn't help against mages, which is what we were talking about

>ughhhh why are just bringing up mage out of nowherrree

Top kek

So, speaking demon, what sort of inspirational works should I take a look at while get ready for my upcoming campaign. I started watching 'The Americans' for theme research, but what else should I take a look at to get into an espionage mindset?

If Supernatural Tolerance was added to Withstand, pretty much only the highest Potency spells could get through, and even then they would be really gimped. I mean I assume the other splats have their own ways of boosting traits. But let's say you have a Withstand Rating of 4 against a spell, that means it would have to be Potency 5 to take any effect on you at Potency 1.

That OP pic is great

Tinker Tailer Soldier Spy

So what? They going to say "no, please just kill me, I won't merely lead you out of this realm in exchange for my own life"?

It's how these threads have been for running on half a year now. Either get 4chanx and get good at filtering or leave is really about your only options at this point

They'd either fight back or escape. Changelings are slippery buggers.

>They'd either fight back or escape
Those are certainly two options, but rather poor ones when faced with a Demon, especially given their movement powers.

Sorcerers, essentially mortal men, in my mind, shouldn't be tougher or stronger than actual monsters, be they vampire, werewolf or changeling. Demons, as in actual demons, should be above the rest. This is just my personal bias. Humans should be the weakest of the bunch.

There's my two cents. You can tell why I didn't want to put it out there.

Okay.

Should I see the movie or read the book in your opinion?

Basic sorcerers, thaumaturges, psychics and the like, the vast, vast majority of human magic users, are weaker than vampires, werewolves and the assorted other supernatural entities. The relatively small number of wakened mages are the exception that prove the rule.

To use the Dresden Files as an example, recall that White Council wizards are a match for top tier supernaturals, but they represent a tiny fraction of human who practica magic.

Except mages aren't few in number. They're apparently more populated than werewolves, but under vampires.

No numbers or proportions have ever been given concerning the major established splats.

It's Dave's own assumption

Given how stupid complex their society can be, and all the ludicrous factions, it frequently makes no sense at all for there to be only a few dozen Mages in a world-city.

I blame that Boston book for fucking it all up.

Mages are a minority within their own societies..

That they are, but those guys can really only hold 0, to 1 dot in Status, can't they?

All the REAL jobs have to be done by Mages.

>thinking that this is somehow novel tactic that
>thinking that isn't norm of the Hedge
>thinking Changelings are just that stupid

And most of those would likely be pawned off to favored sleepwalker assistants while the Mage goes about doing things they find infinitely more interesting.

Changelings kind of -are- stupid though...

>Changelings are just that stupid
user, a bio-robot demon has a gun billowing red-black smoke out of it pointed at your head.
He orders you to lead him out of the Hedge, or he'll kill you and find someone else to do it.
You try to run, he teleports in front of you nothin personnel, and shoots you in the leg for your troubles.

Stupidity has nothing to do with it.
Demons aren't somehow at the mercy of Changelings by being in the Hedge.
If they won't willingly lead them out, then the Demon has all manner of tools at his disposal. Most crucially, a complete immunity to any moral qualms relating to torture, murder, and grievous mutilation.

Demons are nasty.

This is just exactly the kind of stuff that dwells in the Hedge in first place. It isn't Arcadia but it is full of things that will threaten to kill you or worse if you don't comply, ans are usually more than capable to carry their threat out. So even letting that happen is sorta mark of carelessness from Changelings.
That said. No reason to make it too hard for a Demon player to leave a Hedge. Hard Leverage counts as social maneuvering, and all that.

The Hedge summary: Zone from Roadside Picnic with drizzle of Silent Hill.

Oh wow, another weirdass monster from the Hedge that makes unfair contracts and makes demands, how new. And it lacks any form of morality?

No wonder it's in the hedge.

Exactly. See, . Don't let the Alice -aesthetics fool you, it's almost there for juxtaposition.

Note: I'm not saying demons aren't nothing compared to Changelings, just Changeling society tends to deal with similar issues.

(I mean yes, you can intimidate everything to get what you want. Sometimes you'll get through with a new enemy warning his friends about a Steampunk Huntsman on the loose in reality. Sometimes you're gonna get a 10 Wyrd fuck who punches you into Tuesday.)

Agreed, by no means did I want to say that Demon would never manage to get a drop on Changelings. It was just presented in a way as if Lost would act similar to mortals when confronted with Unchained, which is severely underselling them at one of their primary facts of life.
Changeling aren't weepy Stigmatics on drugs.

I'd like to propose a topic:
>If you like [Gameline], you will like [Another game, book, movie, comic, and/or related medium]

I was dicking around with 'stat me' ideas today with a Halloween theme due to the season and I got a little caught up on one.
Todays theme was slasher, and obviously Jason and Myers would be Mask undertakings, but what would Krueger be?
He seems like he'd be a Legend from the available Slasher undertakings, but his actual dream powers from the movies seem like they might be more along the lines of Changeling or Beast. I haven't read Slasher in awhile though so I can't remember if Slashers can get access to some supernatural powers.

Mages biggest weakness is the element of surprise right?
Couldn't a bunch of hunters just fuck one up using some pre-planned bullshit?
Or a Genius the slasher undertaking, not the unofficial gameline just lure one into a murder trap?

Playtest material for Changeling suggested he is an "Oneiron" living pigment of dream that had escaped into the Hedge but can also exist in physical reality. Interestingly enough Changeling playtest material also had a perfect Tilt "More Real Than Flesh", that turned dream violence into physical.

Little bit of probing into CtL preview articles suggests that Rose's team renamed Oneroi into Eidolons.

Damn, this nuChangeling has so much in it. I've already heard it's going to be a better Beast than Beast. How will they revamp other lines to not fall behind?

Genius doesn't exist

I was watching the new It movie about a week ago and realized It is basically a Beast.
>has human form that it takes to appear to other people.
>real form exists under the city in a labyrinth maze where It can freely torment individuals when they enter.
>feasts on the abstract concept of fear in children.
>true form is a primordial monster of great power.

Learn to read, moron. Or did someone install a bot to "troll" Geniusfags?

>Genius
>THE SLASHER UNDERTAKING, NOT THE UNOFFICIAL GAMELINE.

A surprised mage who only has mage armor is at a disadvantage yep.

But if one can survive at least a turn, most have ways of easily escaping after which you now have a mage who may want to come back at you with full prep time.

If some user's here are to be believed then most mages leave the house totally unprepared for anything and deserve to get ambushed and fucked. They arnt willing to take some time and cast any spells that would help negate or avoid a threat because when just "going for a pint of milk" nothing bad can happen. Its not like random accidents can happen to anybody at anytime and having some armor or not being seen by that random fullauto gunman.

Mages who prepare and take their umbrella with them even when its not raining this minute however are fine. They arnt going to get wet or splattered about the pavement by some shitty hunters.

Unlikely, but sure. Here's a few things one should think about should they find themselves standing over the cooling corpse of a Mage:

>What are you gonna do about their cabal?
They WILL come after you.
>What are you gonna do about their Mage friends? They may also come after you, or help those that do.
>What are you gonna do about their mentor?
>What are you gonna if *any* of the above are Acanthus or have access to one eager to help?
>Why did you commit suicide by Mage?
>You all should really pray this ends with just suicide by Mage.
It probably won't

Something something Genius something something something, Beholden, something Wonder Something something Lemuria?
Trying to bait out the bot if it's a bot and not an idiot.

Mage's biggest problem is them biting off more than they can handle.

It's the best way for a non-Mage to kill them. Succeed on an ambush roll then they get no action and don't get to apply defense. But even the official material that says that while that's the best way to do it, it's pretty hard to catch them off guard.

It's not exactly fair, but you aren't going to have a good shot of catching a Mage off guard if they have a reason to suspect danger. Without detailing all the ways a Mage can use simple spells to inform himself or enhance his awareness, EVERY Mage can always just raise their preferred Mage Armor beforehand, where it'll remain active for the rest of the scene. The errata also says that the kind of Mage Armors that enhance Defense also make it so that their augmented Defense is applicable against surprise attacks.

I'm just letting you know.

wow a true statement on Veeky Forums

you deserve a cookie

It kind of bothers me how popular Genius is(the not-gameline) because I grew up with shit like Friday the 13th and Halloween, so I like to use/talk about slashers semi-occasionally but everyone starts getting confused when I try to talk about Geniuses because they all assume I'm referencing the not-game.
Geniuses are also probably one of my favorite undertakings because they can be incredibly dangerous to even supernaturals if used creatively.

Don't worry Hunter 2e will probably help bringing Slashers and their Undertakings to wider audiences. When it will probably eventually come out.
What's your opinion by the way: Would it be fine for Integrity 0 Supernatural Templates to take Slasher Undertakings?

beep boop beep

Genius a shit

11001101100111001

Not that user but my initial answer to any "Can i also take this?" question is "NO".

I then let the PC try and convince me its cool and that it wont ruin anything. Depending on how he fairs my answer may become "yes ok".

This only applies to pc's, if its a npc then the answer is always "yes this should be fun/surprising/awesome"

I get worried about 2e's after I saw Promethean. They totally shafted Pandorans so they could focus on 'alchemists'. So I'm naturally a little worried that Slashers would go a similar route since they play the same role for Hunters.
As for your question though, it really depends on the storyteller and the people playing. Some people like to play it safe and just stick with the available rules, but my personal opinion is that if you can create a good enough reason, and have it feasibly fit with the established lore, then why not? At the end of the day, it's all still a game, so your overall goal as a storyteller should be telling a good story. If you have to bend a rule or two to do that, then go right on ahead.
It also kind of depends on what supernatural we're talking about here though.
I imagine Geists could go slasher, since a Geist isn't too dissimilar from a human, but you'd have to integrate how they'd deal with the ghosts of the people they murder.
Vampires have reduced emotional capacity, so you could easily apply murderous undertakings to them. Hell, Toreadors are practically Charmers already, they just need the will to kill.
To sum it up, you could go ahead and give supernaturals an undertaking if that's what you're looking for, but you'll have to integrate why that particular supernatural would have an interest in killing humans and how it'd have to avoid different consequences as a mortal Slasher would (Like the Geist problem I mentioned above).

Interestingly enough some of the described behaviors for "unplayable" supernaturals already match routines of some Undertakings.
Changelings often go Legend, specifically mimicking local urban myths and preying on those who break some arcane rules.
Many Vampires have elements of Psycho, with ability to momentarily pass for ordinary mortal before striking.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Promethean or Deviant fitting into Mutant.

And Illuminated fit Maniacs to a T, with amusing fact that author used Maniac as acceptable term for Geniuses among "good guys."

Its actually been awhile since i read slasher. This conversation has stirred my interest again.

I always did want to run a "laundry-esqe" VASCU type hunter campaign.

What would a Mage gain from dealing with a Cruac witch?

Probably just knowledge about Cruac, leading to advancements in their Obsession and more Beats. Depending on what Cruac can do, maybe ideas for new spells. Also potentially favors, the real commodity for Mages.

Menstrual blood.

I think the better question would be what would the Cruac witch gain from dealing with the Mage.

Vampire scholars would drool over what the Wise know

They probably wouldn't, actually. By RAW, the Mysterium doesn't have in-depth knowledge about the other splats and their fields, and even Dave says that his idea of a "Changeling expert" would be a harried Acanthus who knows shit about Changeling basics. So I don't see what a Mage would have to offer a vampire, unless it's in some other field of interest that they share.

Nope. His purported "Changeling Experts" explore the Hedge and deal with Freeholds. They know well enough and more.

Got a source for what you're saying?

Yep

Great. Now join hands and kiss.

His clarification of Changeling Experts comes after that, so what he means by Changeling Expert is a Mystagogue who knows the basics, explores the Hedge, and interacts with Freeholds. Not an expert with deep, rare knowledge.

Doubtful. No man is limited to knowledge at hand. It is an easy thing to tear out information from a person's mind for the sake of progress. Assuming you're a low Wisdom Mystagogue.

>Doubtful
>but in plain text right before my eyes
But hey, make whatever headcanon you want.

The "basics" could mean anything from thorough smidgets of Changeling lore to a rough understanding of the entire frame.

>Mystagogue captures high-ranking Changeling of the Autumn Court
>Uses Mind to strip him of all her knowledge piece by piece

Bam. Changeling expert extraordinaire.

I imagine it would be whatever your basic bitch Changeling who needs help taking care of a Fetch knows.

Just being pragmatic here. I don't see the difficulty of a Mage becoming a master of *insert splat here* phenomena.

Have fun dealing with a Freehold on your Cabal's ass

The idea that mages know jack shit about other splats is stupid. The sherlocks of the universe would have found out most shit at some point.

Now the fact the info doesnt get banded about is another matter entirely.