Continuing from last thread! Now with a more or less organized Google doc, so we know how wer'e doing:
docs.google.com
TL;DR: An alternate Warhammer Fantasy setting inspired by oriental imagery rather than Germanic/European. The centerpiece is an equivalent of the Empire based on the Ottoman, rather than Holy Roman one.
Thread topic: settling on what greenskins should be.
So has there actually bee any consideration on what the armies are and what their strenghts are ?
For cloud giants: They are all about magic (to highlight on high elves affinity for magic). Most units are bodyguards and tar pits meant to surround big wizard lords and ladies who can deal horrifying amounts of damage and alter the very battlefield with all sorts of lighting and harsh weather.
I thought the cloud giants were our wood elf expies? With the high elves being frost giants?
I'd imagine being giants, they serve as both a hero and monstrous unit, and having just one is already pretty expensive, while having a lot of magical constructs for support. Not golems of stone and metal like the dwarves, but like sentient electricity tethered by strips of metal to form a body or something. Something that emphasises how powerful they are but at the same time how few are left
I opt the post that the orcs pretend to be crusading Euros only because the orcs that were aupposed to tell them it was all a joke died before they could make the reveal, so now all the clans and tribes take their roles seriously, even they are very bad at it and were never supposed to.
Will this have a wuxia inspired faction?
As an an actual Turk i like what you are doing.
Keep up the good work user.
Jade Kings already has the Asian theme. Unless you want to be the one to make the Korean themed Ogre Kingdoms filled with fat, tae kwon do fighting ogres.
>settling on what greenskins should be.
I vote for the religious-bent krusaders who go WAAAAGHing into the Empire because their priests tell them "it's wut Gork an' Mork want".
I think we should probably drop the "each type of orc is from a different country" and make them all generically European, though. With the exception of Gobbos, who should absolutely be cowardly Frenchmen.
Maybe, like... Black Orcs and Bosses are their religious, tactical-minded crusading knights, regular Orcs are the barbarian warriors who get caught up in the excitement, and Goblins are cowardly-little shits who get press ganged to maintain their equipment?
(And Night Goblins are Gregorian monks who live in caves.)
>Korean themed Ogre Kingdoms filled with fat, tae kwon do fighting ogres.
Well, when you put it like that...
I think we decided that the cloud giants' equivalent to the dryads were going to be wind spirits, right?
Yup. Djinns and air spirits and shit.
Dwarf armies are small by necessity, so rather than large battle lines, they make use of small units of outflanking warriors and gunmen, bolstered by their wise men: wielders of the holy word of Grungni*, binding great golems to aid them and using their magical speech and writings to invigorate the dwarfish forces and hinder the enemy. Their equivalent to slayers are those sworn to reclaim their holy lands or die in the attempt, and they can take ridiculous amounts of punishment before going down thanks to the holy words enscribed over their bodies.
*Is there a way to make "Grungni" sound more Hebrew?
Hebrew speaker here. Can’t think of one off the top of my head, but if you want translation of words to Hebrew or something, I could provide. I don’t know what “Grungni” is supposed to mean, though.
How about an angelic style name, ending in “-el”?
>Grungni
Name of the Dwarf god in regular WHFB.
I know, I was literall asking if the word means anything in any language. If it does, I could just translate it.
Well, “grungnaz” is khazalid for “making”, so presumably it means something like “maker”.
Lots of words that could fit, then. "Making" as in craftsmanship would be "Melacha", so he might be called "Melachi" or "Melachan" or "Melachiel". But that's confusing, since it sounds very similar to a lot of words which are very relevant to descriptions of divinity, like "Melech" ("king") and "Malach" (literally "messenger", and how angels are called in Hebrew). Creation in a more general sense would be "Yetzirah", with a creator being a "Yotzer". Making in a more general sense (including the performance of actions, for example) would be "Asiyah", with the maker being an "Oseh", or, very, very archaically, "Asiyan". Creation which is strictly divine (such as the creation of the world) is "Beriah", and one who engages in it is a "Boreh". Boriel? It sounds dwarfish.
Hebrew grammar is far, far more flexible than that of many Latin based languages. So long as you have a root word in mind, there's no end to the ways you can modify and repurpose it.
Still that's one. You still need ranged support, cavalru, siege units, commanders, and special units that augment their fighting style.
Hi Veeky Forums im from turkey and a major fan of warhammer fantasy who also happen to be a history student. So can help with structure of the state, army and provinces and major events naming of things etc.
Great you can start by figuring out what sort of army list this Army should have.
If that's too much, we still need some hero units, either made from scratch, or influenced by a real life figure in the Ottoman empire.
Well if we are taking classical era of ottoman army which covers the period after the conquest of constantinople (konstantiniyye in our old saying). There was 2 branch that composes an army central (qapı qulu) and from provinces (tımarlı). In 16th and 17th century army was nearly completed it transformation from a horse backed nomad army to a gunpowder army with jannisary core and cannons. Except for the light raiding (akıncı units) that used for vanguard and harrasment.
Well we can use both then. The Empire should be like a 'beginners army' that has units that can be used for basic warfare or changed out with specialists to focus their ability on a another style of fighting.
For special units starting with few suggestions.''Deli'' regiment which literally means crazy in turkish was a some kind of berserk force which was fighting as the first line in most battles and expected to die. They wore animal leathers (hello beastmen) and helmets with feather with little to no armor and used to scare the shit out of opposing side.
What could be considered their equivalent to the Greatwords? Something heavily armored that can duke it out with chaosed infused nightmares and juiced up vampire thralls and still come out alive.
Well yeniçeri (janissary) corps was the elite force of empire. At the height of empire they were taken as a child from non muslim families by force and rarely voluntarily, they had to smart, strong and promising raised as professional soldiers that use both firearms and close weapons effectively. As huge swords kılıj's were common with a mace or yataghan backup. Halberds and polearms were also widely used to fuck up european heavy cav.
remove.....bratwurst?
There was several divisions inside the jannisaries.For bodyguard units there is a subdivision of janissaries called solakan-ı hassa which is entirely composed of left handed warriors. Instead of using firearms they carried hand weapons and heavy bows and standed in the left side of sultan. Humbaracı (grenadiers) were obviously used hand bombs.Cebeci's were support part which was obligated with construction,maintainence and repair of weapons. Topçu is the name for artillery. As for Qapıqulu Cav Units Jannisary Sipahi, Right / Left Ulufeci's for rear guard, Right/Left Garips for flanking maneuvers which use long spears, curved swords and a shield.
Sounds more like a State Trooper equivalent with the Halberd and gun thing.
Anything that was elite of the elite? Like a smaller, more well trained contingent of the Janissary?
>But that's confusing, since it sounds very similar to a lot of words which are very relevant to descriptions of divinity
Surely that's perfect, then?
It makes it sounds too much like a pun to take seriously.
Mostly not of janissary origin but there were serdengeçti who wears pars skin (kind of panther in english ?) and only uses greatswords. They were used as first troops to breach gaps in wall, from the the fresh opened tunnels inside the castle and first to jump from siege machines in every battle they fought. As expected high mortality rate, survivers nearly respected like saints and a had a realy formidable salary after first succesful mission
That sounds more like Greatswords.
Okay so we have Janissaries as basic infantry, spliting them apart based on weapon preference. We can say that in this Empire, the !Ottomons train janissaries in all forms of combat, but for the field each soldier particularly excels in, they are then switched over to an advance corp to hone their training in that one weapon to a razor's edge. Which would explain why you have units of sword Janissary, Halberd Janissary, Spear Janissary, Rifle Janissary, etc.
Warhammer isn't exactly a serious setting, so having the name of God be a shitty pun would be fitting, but I'll defer to you.
Why not both? It gives reason for Orcs to act unorky, while adding the comedic element that is standard for them.
So it wasn't too clear last thread. Are Skaven still snake-men, were they changed to roachment, or are they staying Ratmen?
What did the Ottomans have in terms of artillery? And how can we overblow it to warhammer levels of awesome/silly?
+5 vs Constantinople but not Istanbul
That's not what i mean. I mean stuff like the Empire's Steam Tank, Hellblaster gun, and the giant 'Fuck off' Cannon guarding Altdorf that needed a giant to reload it because the shot for it was so huge.
Hangi ordu ve hangi şehirdesin?
you have your answer but you refuse to apply yourself to see it
There were these huge pieces used mostly for sieges. Something like them might be used for handling demonds, dragons or equally hard enemies, like Warhammer’s great cannons.
1. Your provided 1 example and some silly +orc damage to it. Which is silly because orcs would call the place Orcstantinople.
Was a better example. Put a few skulls on it, call it the Siegecracker, and it's perfect.
So Jade Kings. Continuing on with their army list
>Terracotta Warriors
As part of ancient Cathayan belief, every King enters the afterlife to set up a kingdom and rule for the rest of eternity. However he cannot do so alone. He will need builders to construct his great palace, concubines to keep him company, and soldiers to patrol his estate. So before burial, every monarch will have an army of life sized soldiers, molded from fine clay, inspected by the King to ensure they are to their liking, fired in secret Cathayan methods that make ceramics as hard as iron, and sealed away in the King's Tomb. Some are hollow statues, meant solely for service in the hereafter, others are punishment, the clay statues holding the bodies of executed criminals inside as punishment against one of their King's laws. Some Kings are content with a scant hundred, while others demand an endless sea of thousands. It can be said that the number of clay warriors buried beneath the earth now outnumber the living.
With the Jade Kings drawn away from their eternal kingdoms, the enraged rulers of the past have summoned up their loyal armies, drawing the near bottomless wells of warrior statues to fight for them. Forming rigid lines of stoic soldiers, they march in perfect unison, following their masters' order to the letter. They do not fear any enemy for there isn't anything inside them to feel fear with. They do not eat, they do not sleep. A perfect army for a dead King.
Gonna put this in the Google Doc. Anyone have anything they wanna add?
A different turkanon.
There were these massive artillery guns called "Şahi" which were used to destroy the huge walls of Constantinople.
See now we're talking. This is the kind of shit that fits into warhammer! Or Warbow in this case. The great cannons used by the Empire to defend its border and reduce would be enemies into unpleasant stains in the dirt.
For the Army list;
So I am going to simplify this for the sake of it being digestible. There is two type of recruitment in Ottoman Army.
1- The soldiers that directly belonged to the Sultan was called "Kapikulu" (kapi meaning door and kulu meaning subject, it meant "Subject of the gate") They made up the main portion of the army. You can think of them as the mercenaries of the Sultan.
2- The second type of soldiers were called "Eyalet Soldiers" which literally means Provincial Soldiers. Ottoman's had their own system of provincial recruitment called "timar" which I will later describe.
I will go into more details in coming posts.
So to recap, for the Empire so far we have:
>Basic Units:
>>Janissaary
Standard troops within the Empire. Recruitment for this corp varies throughout the provinces. Some volunteer freely, considering it an honor to be part of such an elite fighting force. Others are drafted, by force if necessary to meet some standard imposed on them. Trained in all manner of weapons, they can fill multiple roles on the battlefield.
These are basically State Troopers, Spearmen, Swordsmen, Handgunners, and Crossbowmen rolled into one.
>>Serdengeçti
Siege breakers that wear wildcat pelts and wield great swords into battle. Often the first through any breach, cutting down enemies with swings from their heavy blades. High attack, low armor, recommend putting them in close proximity with the enemy where they can't be attacked until it's too late.
>Artillery
>>Cannons
Big mothers that fills the same role as the Old World Empire Cannons. Good for breaking walls and blowing up orcs.
>>Şahi
Larger stationary guns meant for defensive battles and sieges. Can bring down entire segments of wall or enemy armies with a well placed shot
Someone add some flava text to make this sound more vibrant
So for the "Kapikulu"
>Infantry (Which was called "Yayalar" meaning pedestrians.)
>Janissary ("Yeniçeri")
"The Janissaries were elite infantry units that formed the Ottoman Sultan's household troops and bodyguards.The janissary corps was significant in a number of ways. The janissaries wore uniforms, were paid in cash as regular soldiers, and marched to distinctive music, by the mehter."
>Yaya (Literal translation means pedestrian, boring name I know.)
Used for all infantry which is not yeniçeri. So your regular foot soldier.
>Cavalry (Which was called Süvari.)
>Janissary Cavalry ("Yeniçeri Süvarileri")
Same thing with Janissary but on horse.
>Silahdars (Which means "weapon bearers")
Now these guys are the fucking shit. They were a bodyguard division for the Sultan. "Silahdars were chosen from the best warriors. Any Ottoman soldier who committed a significant deed on the battlefield could be promoted to the Silahdar division." Oh and also "Infantry soldiers had to enlist as serdengecti (literally means giver of his head) and survive suicide missions to join the Silahdar division. "
>Sipahi
Your regular mounted troops. Sipahi refers nearly to all freeborn Ottoman Turkish mounted troops. The word was used almost synonymously with cavalry.
>Akıncı
Akıncı were irregular light cavalry, scout divisions and advance troops. They were one of the first divisions to face the opposing military and were known for their prowess in battle. Unpaid they lived and operated as raiders on the frontiers of the Ottoman Empire, subsisting totally on plunder.
I will continue with provincial soldiers.
>Kapikulu
So would these be like the Free Company Militia?
Dont forget t*rks favorite pastime. Deepest lore.
Now for the provincial soldiers.
>Infantry
>>Azabs
In Ottoman Empire, every town and village were obliged to provide a fully equipped conscript at the recruiting office created by the order of the Sultan. This force of irregular infantrymen was called the azabs and they were used in many ways. Sometimes they were even used as cannon fodder to slow down the enemy advance.
>>Delibaş (Which means "crazy head")
Delibaş, were a branch of the azabs and were especially recruited among the homeless and criminals. They were fierce, undisciplined, and specialized in close combat.
>>Volunteers
I think this one is pretty clear.
>Calvary
>>Timarli Sipahi
'Timarli Sipahi' served the Empire and in return was granted a fief called a timar. The timariots had to assemble with the army when at war, and had to take care of the land entrusted to him in times of peace. When at war, the timariot had to bring his own equipment and in addition a number of armed retainers. They made up most of the provincial army.
>Akıncı (Same in "Kapikulu")
Akıncı were irregular light cavalry, scout divisions and advance troops. They were one of the first divisions to face the opposing military and were known for their prowess in battle. Unpaid they lived and operated as raiders on the frontiers of the Ottoman Empire, subsisting totally on plunder.
No, Free Company Militia would be the Provincial Army, I think. Kapıkulu was formed with elite and highly trained soldiers. Fighting was their daily job.
I lol every time I see this.
So Azabs are Free Company
Delibas are Flagellents
Timarli the...mounted pistollier?
Yep, that seems good but we would need an even cheaper mounted unit for "Akıncı"
Didn't we say Flagellants were dervishes? I don't think we ever seriously intended to get into that much historical detail. You can make some concessions to pop culture depictions.
Applying my fleeting grasp of Hebrew to the dwarf gods:
Grungni -> Kharash/Harash (means "forger")
Grimnir -> Kathal/Katal (linguistically related to "slayer")
Valaya -> Khemlia/Chemlia (linguistically related to "compassion", sort of like "creates compassion")
Like , Hebrew is very flexible if you know how the grammar works (it's all just ordering root letters in predetermined templates). Hopefully I do.
To expand this, my humble suggestions:
Karak -> Misla' (root of "rock", template of "workplace"). When used in conjunction with an adjective, this becomes "Misla't".
Some common Karak names, based on Hebrew with the vowels reversed when applicable in reference to Aramaic:
Karak Azul -> Misla't Birzal ("of iron")
Karak Azgal -> Misla't Girzon ("of the axe")/Misla't Kardom ("of the [different type of] axe)
Karak Kadrin -> Misla't Misoa ("of journeying")
Karaz a Karak -> Ma'alnetzach (a play on words, as it could mean both "eternal peak" and "peak of triumph")
Well not a direct translation from history no, but it does make a good foundation for the setting. Like the Janissary thing on
How does the College of Magic function in the Prophet's Empire? Is Balthazar Gelt's equivalent Supreme Patriarch? What Lores do they teach?
So are the real turks underground were-roaches now or what ?
I can only name one person of the top of my head. Evliya Çelebi who wrote about vampires, zombies, magic and such shit. Although Evliya Çelebi was his honorary title "Evliya" meaning saint and "Çelebi" meaning gentleman.
But he really doesn't look the part. However, we can use him as a baseline.
Not any famous Turkish alchemists? I thought the Middle East loved alchemy.
That is correct but unfortunately, there is no Turkish alchemist. We could try to find some islamic ones? Maybe persian alchemists?
I think it should still be the same schools, only it was the giants who taught the Empire how to do it, and the Empire has different rules regarding magic practice.
Dude, throw a stick on a list of famous Islamic thinkers. Everyone was an alchemist back in the day. Khalid ibn Yazid? Jabir? Alkindus?
Yeah I think I found a pretty great one. Jabir ibn Hayyan, just look at this dude.
Holy shit this guy is actually a wizard.
"Abu Mūsā Jābir ibn Hayyān also known by the Latinization Geber, was a polymath: a chemist and alchemist, astronomer and astrologer, engineer, geographer, philosopher, physicist, and pharmacist and physician. He has been described as the father of early chemistry."
Just throwing this into the air, see if you can do anything with it: a direct translation of Gelt's name to Hebrew would be "Balshazzar Zehavi" (also, I'm not sure if GW intended this but "Orr", the name of the Light Mage who fought Gelt for the title of Supreme Patriarch, is literally Hebrew for "Light")
Did Turkish mystics also adore King Solomon?
>I thought the Middle East loved alchemy.
The Arabs were all over that shit. The Turks less so, but it was there.
>How does the College of Magic function in the Prophet's Empire? Is Balthazar Gelt's equivalent Supreme Patriarch? What Lores do they teach?
The early Ottomans were very keen on bringing in good people from the lands they conquered, and to take in new ideas. Their administration was not egalitarian by our standards, but they didn't place as much emphasis on birth and ethnicity as the Europeans did at the time. Of course this almost totally reversed later, with the Euros being more open and the Ottos less so.
I'd imagine not-Ottomans wizard's college as an institution founded by an early emperor who understood the significnace of magic. Then after his death, the attitude to magic sours somewhat. The college becomes isolated politically without a powerful patron, and the future emperors distance themselves form the place. A semi-religious anti-wizard police is founded, mirroring the witchhunters in Warhams. Maybe an assassin order?
>Orc holy orders
goddammit, this needs to happen
Here's a thingy I did a few years back
>the joy of greenstuff
>the enthusiasm of a noob
it was for a wip thread, but I don't have any good pictures with me right now
all these pictures are too ugly I'm sorry Veeky Forums
Cool conversion.
What pictures?
Awesome. I'm into it.
I'm not too fond of the idea that the orcs are imitating someone for a joke (which doesn't really seem that orky?), since that implies there was a "real" group of European crusaders before that, which I'm not really into. I'd rather keep the bulk of human civilization in the East.
>I'm not too fond of the idea that the orcs are imitating someone for a joke (which doesn't really seem that orky?), since that implies there was a "real" group of European crusaders before that, which I'm not really into. I'd rather keep the bulk of human civilization in the East.
I'd be all for the orcs as an original society founded on semi-theocratic fondness for war and pillage.
Maybe veer a little away from Warhams orcs in that regard. Warhams orcs and goblins never had a society as such, unless you count war as their culture. Malifaux Gremlins might be a good model, they are semi-intelligent creatures with a coherent society apart from their constant scrapping while still being funny.
I'm still with the very early idea that orcs need to be Alabama parodies. Or maybe the Japanese?
American culture, not to mention modern one, is completely unsuitable for this setting.
Do dwarf armies draw mostly from the Diaspora population (how does that even work?), or from the few remaining Free Dwarfholds?
Either or? I imagine the diaspora have resources at their disposal that mean they can coordinate and gather into an army if need be, supplemented by their magics.
I don't think they'd be allowed to organize an army. Remember, the deal is now they're a disenfranchised, much maligned demographic within the Empire. The only reason they continue to exist is that people have to begrudgingly admit they make the best doctors/merchants/bankers and rely on their services, and I can imagine the only reason their ghettos haven't been burned to the ground a hundred times already over the years is that golems leap out of the stonework to pulverize anyone who tries.
If the Diaspora tried raising actual armies, rather than tiny guerilla groups (Sicarii?), the Empire would descend upon them like the sacred falcon and kill them all.
would the arabs be not kislev? except with fire magic from their bond with the desert?
Well, I imagine they'd be more of a guerilla army than anything. Made up of civilians who keep their weapons well-hidden from Imperial forces; they'd gather to fight whatever needs attacking and then disperse back into their homes and ghettos before the Imperials can pin them down.
Sort of like antifa tactics.
That was Middenheim.
Either way, we need to take what makes the Ottomons Ottomon and blow it way out of proportion. That's what made the Empire
>Cannons 3x their actual size
>Everyone has a silly hat. Like super huge hats that serve no purpose on the battlefield besides to say "Here I am"
>Skulls on fucking everything.
>Bright colors to denote each province.
So far this thread has been all about 'historically accurate Ottomon Empire'. Now it's time to innacurat-ize it!
Even huger cannons and even huger hats?
Yes. That hat Suleiman wore? Every noble should wear one
Oh them cannons look pretty big already maybe we-MAKE EM BIGGER
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What about some kind of part sea/part air naval fleet? Gude lowly flying galley on balloon or wings
and torpedo, with jinn or some alchimical stuff inside