I don't think I fully understand the 3 color combinations, both in terms of fluff and actual mechanical benefits. Mind sharing your thoughts and knowledge on the matter?
Also, to keep things interesting, what is best two and/or three color combination and why do you think it is so?
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those shard symbols look ugly as fuck
anyway for 3 colors the gameplay is WAY too varied to discuss so Ill just focus on fluff
>GWU - Bant
Knights, they try to keep order or whatever, theyre the white knights "good guys" shard
>WUB - Esper
Artifacts, theyre a sort of lawful neutral, looking for perfection and go as far as to morph their bodys with artifacts to achieve it
>UBR - Grixis
big bad color combination, this is that hard that tells you that the actual color values are just deluded for wizards story since Bolas and most other grixis guys are just pure evil, where if you look at each color individually and put all 3 together from their values it would just be a really selfish and smart jew
>BRG - Jund
big dumb dragons
>RGW - Naya
theyre the boros where bant is the azorius, wild as fuck but still try to keep a sort of harmony with nature and all living things, pretty much just hippies with bite
>WRU - Jeskai
avatar the last airbender
>UGB _ Sultai
dimir but out in the open
>BWR - Mardu
orzhov with style
>RUG - Temur
just take all the shamans and creatures that can think out of gruul and youve got temur, its as if they just didnt WANT any of the spellslingy out of izzet or the rick and morty out of simic
>GBW - Abzan
like naya except not as nice, theyre anti-heros I think
The Bant and Esper ones are fine. The others are trying too hard to depict really specific things
Do you mean in regards to how they work in terms of color philosophy, or just what those shards and clans are about?
are you talking about the symbols?
on second look yeah the bant and esper are pretty clean, naya is just guild symbols mashed together, jund is a dragons mouth which while it works for the shard it looks fucking ugly, and that minibolas looks retarded
I also wish it would use the new rakdos symbol, the old one looks so gay
Yeah, meant the symbols. I also agree that new Rakdos works better, since it gives of a sort of harlequin vibe with the color split, and is also just cleaner and matches better with the new guild symbols better on the whole.
Generally, as factions or individuals begin to encompass more colors than they lack, it becomes easier to categorize them by what they aren't.
Bant has no place for chaos or selfishness, only courage and sacrifice are tolerated.
Esper has no place for nature or impulsive, illogical behavior, everything is cold and logical.
Grixis has no place for order or natural life, everyone's dead and engaged in murder wizardry.
Jund has no place for contemplation or harmony, it's eat or be eaten all the way down.
Naya has no place for complicated constructs or subversive schemes, it's all about the natural order there.
This becomes even easier when you start talking about 4 colors; Saskia is anything but subtle, Breya is anything but natural, ect cetera.
Best 2-colors are Azorius and Izzet, best 3 colors are Grixis and Abzan.
In terms of color philosophy.
now were jumping into completely different territory
thing about mtg is that wizards cant really embody 3 colors fully in any factions because theres so much they can cover and so they tend to go with "less is more" so they dont cram a faction with too much shit
take Temur, you could go with the more blue side mixing simic and izzet together like with riku of two reflections, or you could take a more gruul side like with surrak dragonclaw
both are temur legends, one is more of a rugged savage settler kinda guy while the other is a more mystic wizard
so with each color combination you need to find where the colors match (the GR) and then figure out how to make the part that doesnt (the U) ft in, even with shards the BW is the part that doesnt match in UBW where UW and BU do
wizards opts to keep things simple and only put in a few parts of each colors values just so its not bloated with bullshit
the more colors you add the more deluded each colors values are going to get which is why the guilds do the best job of representing the colors so well while the shards and clans fumble with their identitys
I've put a bunch of thought into GWB because it's my favorite wedge, so here's some of my ruminations on it.
First off, with any shard or wedge you can have a core color that determines exactly how it expresses itself. the Abzan are white as their core color, and it shows in their major theme of unity and steadfastness.
Outside of the core color though, GWB is the wedge that is entirely about being stagnant and implacable. Green and white both don't like change (or in green's case, fast change. It's fine with slow, natural progression), and black only likes it on it's own terms, so the three colors make a faction that is something that "outlasts" others (get it?). Without blue's desire for improvement and advancement, or red's chaotic and passionate creativity, GWB is the color combo that is something slow, gigantic, and unstoppable. It gets rid of things that would upset its slow growth with extreme prejudice (ala duneblast), and then grows into a problem too big for anyone else to handle. GWB also absolutely loves using its own dudes as fodder. W loves martyrs, G is all about natural order and the survival of the fittest, and B exploits both of those to use those deaths as much as possible.
In the end GWB is something that wants to play it's game and get big, and will fuck you up if you try to upset that.
I think I'm starting to understand.
Using Sultai as an example, since it lacks the lawful and moral white mana and the feeling and hot blooded red mana, it is a combination not held back by emotions or morality. In the story the Sultai themselves focus more on UB ambition and sneakiness, yet with hints of G honesty and naturalistic brutality. However, it is completely possible to take a different route on it by having the core color be G and focusing on BG and UG, creating a beast that seeks to either be the best biological life and rule over all or one that seeks betterment of the ecosystem as a whole, though with them benefiting more than others.
Am I getting this right?
>fluff
Shards are the positive traits and the central color, with negative traits of all three.
Wedges are the positive traits of all three colors, with negative traits of the two that get along.
>actual mechanical benefits
Colors are mostly defined by what they're bad at or what they can only do in limited ways.
With three colors you're bad at almost nothing and have wiggle room on how to do anything.
*What* wiggle room depends on the colors pairings, but it gets pretty arbitrary.
Exactly! You can interpret color combinations as a ton of different things, which is what makes them so interesting. Not to mention you can keep expanding their definitions depending on the plane. One Sultai might be based in G and be a collection of scheming ecoterroristic nature druids, while another one based in G might be the aforementioned Apex Predator Beast that desires to survival of the fittest, but with it at the top.
Well, for starters, the shards are a bit different, due to the fact that they exist in worlds with none of their enemy colors to worry about. They are an entire world based off the philosophy, rather than the clans, which are closer to two enemy color pairs joined as a smaller state or the like.
>Bant
Primarily concerned with honor, but also service and law. They aren't completely above duplicity, as they have scouts and spies, but such things are done with Green and Blue magic, and are largely based in the constant wars the various nations have. The White comes from law. The Green comes from tradition. The Blue comes from tactics.
>Esper
A lack of Green and Red mana means no easy way to destroy artifacts. For Blue, this is good because they love artifacts, knowledge, etc. This led to a lot of scientific advancement and study, and it is to the point where they have incredibly orderly control over most aspects of the plane. White comes in with regards to sorting those, as well as a slight bit of morality when it comes to wanting to improve lives by making sure everyone can access Etherium. Black comes from assassins and the darker elements of society that lurk in the scrap heaps and sewers. In regards to philosophy, it is rather cyberpunk, just without anyone really rebelling against the system. Everyone is a cybernetics tycoon scheming against eachother, some more benevolent than others.
(cont)
(this got way longer than I meant it too. apologies)
>Grixis
Grixis is interesting the fact that it is still in its final stages before the true end result. The lack of life energy from Green and White meant a world where Undead would dominate inevitably, since the energy was limited. Things might have lasted longer if the traitor king didn't sell out to a demon and doom the biggest city. So you have the dominating color of Grixis as Black, being the selfish nature of necromancers and demons who want to get all the Vis for themselves. The Red and Blue come in the form of chaotic elements, and the focus on spellcasting and magic as a whole. These also make up the handful of survivors, who use cunning to preserve their freedom for as long as they can.
>Jund
Jund is red in that is chaotic, Black in that it remorseless and cares only for power, and Green in that it is wild and savage. The only ties that bind are tribal or emotional ones that Red and Green can preserve, but the plane as a whole lacks any sort of stability or long term planning. You live, you fight, you die. Sometimes you don't fight, but you always die.
>Naya
Naya is distinct from Jund in that it is less brutal. Naya has history, and tradition. The major cities and civilizations have been stomped out by nature, but there are times of peace on Naya. Rather than being dominated by the Chaos of Red, it instead takes more of its Emotion and freedom. The dominating color of green means physical power is the primary thing that matters, and behemoths have already won. However, Green doesn't like change very much, so the status quo stays.
Jeskai
Jeskai are about self-enlightenment, which is their ultimately Blue goal. They achieve this through harmony, meditation, and combat dicipline alongside their study, and their orderly lifestyle is where they get their White from. The Red comes from the freedom of expression, and how accepting they are of outsiders. There are many, many ways to enlightenment according to Jeskai philosophy. This is distinct from Oujtai, who are secretive and declare that the only way to be enlightened is to be a dragon.
>Sultai
Sultai are black and blue from their constant politicking and scheming. They assassinate rivals for power, using necromancy and arcane secrets to do so. Their Green ties into a common theme of Tarkir, which is that of the past. Specifically, the Sultai are known to look to the past or their ancestors for answers or lost magic.
>Mardu
The Mardu are raiders, but they are loyal to one another. They value kinship and freedom, which is where much of their Red and White comes from. They are accepting of many, and they use a great deal of tactics and strategy when going after other clans. The Black is the degree of brutality and selfishness they express through their lifestyle.
(still more)
you also gotta remember that artifacts can delude a color combination as well, so if you look at the UR artificers of kaladesh which are completely off the mark from the UR mages of ravnica or the keranos followers of theros
basically meaning Esper is a faction thats sort of tacked on to an artifact faction, which is why the esper legends that DONT have an artifact base represent the faction better than esper does
>Temur
Temur tie into a major theme of Tarkir's colors the most. Green is the past, Red is the present, and Blue is the future. They among all clans have the most emphasis on this with their philosophy regarding shamanism, and it is expressed on some of their cards of how these three aspects are important to them. Aside from that, they are expert survivalists who live in tune with nature and their traditions, emphasize freedom, and also have a focus on knowledge
>Abzan
Abzan are desert merchants, making extensive use of forts and pack animals. Their Black comes from their use of necromantic spirits, but also with their love of coin and emphasis on building up your family's personal power. The green comes from their use of herd beasts, but also their extensive importance of family and tradition. The White is what keeps all of these distinct families together and cooperating as a whole, as well as placing a higher regard for martial skill and defense.
Sorry that got longwinded, but the idea is that each shard or clan takes an aspect from all the colors, and then blends them into a larger whole. It's easy to see if you look at where the distinctions lie, or what a 3 color set has that a 2 color pair lacks.
Pretty much.
As far as mechanical benefits go, each color has it's own strengths and weaknesses: Green has powerful creatures, can recur cards from the graveyard, and the best mana acceleration, but falls short on removing an opponent's creatures and(usually) has difficulties with drawing cards. Adding black is a good way to fix the latter, while blue can handle the former, and green covers their weaknesses of being extremely mana-greedy and having low creature power, respectively. This is supposed to be balanced by multicolored costs being difficult to manage effectively, but that tends to be nullified by things like fetchlands into shocklands/duals.
what I want to see is a Grixis good guy, it seems like wizards cant seem to break out of its shell with that combination
UG had a bad guy on ravnica, and then kiora showed up as a good guy, ral and I think saheeli are bad guys but dack is a good guy
lili is a good guy a lot of the time and nissa use to be elf hitler but they fixed her
we see a lot of interesting takes on the color pie but we never get to see anyone use grixis/sultai magic for good or bant/naya magic for evli
Thank you for your time and opinion, sir. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Because its hard to make a black character feel 'good' in general, without stripping out the black elements.
I mean Liliana has honestly been acting more red then Chandra recently to make her feel 'good' by the fact she has been enacting change and acting as a wildcard, rather then being simply selfish and powerhungry.
sorin was the good black walker before lili
it isnt THAT difficult to come up with a way to spin the values of a color to make the virtuous
Thanks. I wrote more than I meant, but all of the sets are interesting with how you can see all three colors with a closer look.
Vraska is also doing pretty well as a protagonist with her love of justice. That may be the enemy colors adding in an aspect of compassion in both cases though.
A Grixis protagonist would probably need to be Red first, Blue second, and Black third, to have them be focused on freedom and emotion before progress and ambition
I too wish to see a heroic Sultai. I did have a few ideas on how it could play out, but first I must ask a lore question.
Are planeswalkers immortal?
Not by default. All a Spark gives you at the baseline is the ability to go to other planes by focusing for a bit, and the ability to speak and understand any language.
If they're a long-lived race like an elf though, or find some artifact or spell on a random plane that does it, they're good.
That's really why planeswalkers are OP. They can walk away, learn a bunch of new spells from some obscure plane you've never heard of, and come back to kick your ass. Also mana bonds
old walkers were great, new walkers are fucking trash
see how I can figure it is imagine some walker makes a plane thats bant vs grixis
the bant side is hardcore purification angels born out of the walkers good traits who want to purge all demons from the world
and the grixis side is demons born of the walkers evil traits
the demons just want to LIVE and have their own cities, sure shady shit happens since thats how theyre born but they have a right to life, meanwhile the angles are the "no fun allowed" kind of stoic assholes who would smite you down for masturbating
protag could be some little demon bro who doesnt really tap into evil magic at all despite the nature of his birth and uses storm magic in order to run the power plant in the city but then some cunt angel wipes his town away and he planeswalks to save his own life
pretty cliche way of getting his spark and once AGAIN we have a case of "planeswalkers are the only beings who can tell the story of magic" but its an easy way of making a grixis good guy
Not since the Mending. Some like Sorin, Nahiri, Bolas, Karn, Liliana, and Ugin are as a result of their natural features/abilities, but human planeswalkers would naturally age and die like normal.
>oppressive lawful government wants to kill me for what I am. Better blast them apart with my magic for Freedom!
This is Chandra with horns. Also, demons can't be planeswalkers because they're mana constructs and more akin to elementals.
I can only talk about Melvin stuff; loosely, how each shard integrates the fluff into its mechanics and ties it back into the colors
>Jund
Green Red Black is the colors of nature, ferocity, and the cycle of life including death. Jund is the shard of consumption for strength, which is symbolized in its picture there. Devour was its primary mechanic.
>Grixis
was a shard not of pure evil but of thaumaturgy.
Red and Black are obviously the primary colors of life-destroying magic in the game, and mixed with blue you get a shard which has a shitton of things dying and enough complex magic to bring them back to life and have some major demons running the show.
>Bant
is a shard of order.
Its colors are white green and blue, white and blue primarily representing the order a la azorius but with less focus on sky and more on earth (lions instead of birds, basically) to tack in green and make the dudes stronger. Their mechanic is actually not that important to their colors; exalted is almost completely a flavor mechanic, where Bant creatures would try and earn all sorts of medals.
>Esper
the shard of artifacts is kind of arbitrarily artifacts but I guess they had to have artifacts in there somewhere. Effectively what they did, with blue being the "smart" color, and white and black being opposing "good and evil" (but both together in the same color), they went for the "shard of logic" angle and decided to go further in that direction by making it logical to upgrade your body with etherium.
>Naya
the colors of all things stompy and alive. The symbol sucks ass, but the mechanic of 5 power and greater makes sense. The cards flow well. green and red gives efficient dudes, white gives keywords and stuff, whatever.
the enemy color ones have forgivable symbols but are a mess from a flavor perspective except for Sultai which is basically grixis except instead of being a red hellscape its a green swampscape with a bit of a regrowth theme instead of just death.
so wait ob nixilis isnt a walker?
also cut the "better blast them apart with my magic for freedom" my demon guy would rather just never return to the plane once he learned to planeswalk, hes more of a coward
the kind of guy an angel would protect if he wasnt a demon
Alright then, so imagine this situation.
Suppose you were to get the Spark and, by some cosmic coincidence, were able to activate it. You spend the first few months travelling throughout the planes, seeing sights and learning new powers. You even meet up with others like yourself, planeswalkers, and hear of their exploits.
Yet from these exploits, from these tales, you catch glimpses of an old, long lost glory. Of a power lost to an event known as the mending.
Immortality.
With that revelation, you start to wonder; how long do you actually have left to live; 60, 70 years by normal human lifespans? Even less, perhaps? That can't possibly be enough time for a planeswalker. No, there has to be some way to get this ability back. To improve one's self with magic to attain eternal life. Yes, it's somewhere in the multiverse.
And you will find it, no matter what it takes.
TL;DR: Planeswalker hears of the lost immortality of the planeswalkers and seeks to become immortal himself. Is Sultai because of perfection (U), ambition (B), and Life (G) for the most part.
And no, you yourself aren't the planeswalker. This was just to show you where these thoughts would come from.
I have another idea, and I will post it soon.
Ob Nixilis began life as a human before turning all demon-y.
More accurately, Ob-Nixilis isn't a demon. Or rather wasnt born looking the way he does. You can see it on his commander planeswalker card. He and Tibalt simply has magic affecting them that caused them to look like demons.
And that aside, being a coward doesn't make him any more Black than Chandra. Norin the Wary is monored, after all.
no the part that makes him black is that he was born a demon, or since you guys are being dicks we can just say he isnt a walker and just happened to be away from the blast when his city was wrathed
And sorin was acting more white then black, and now he's Orzov.
Here's the story of Ob Nixils's backstory.
magic.wizards.com
Not born a demon.
then how come lili is still mono black even though it was stated that shes acting more red now?
regardless ONE of these is a goodguy black walker
no I meant my hypothetical grixis good guy demon, he isnt a walker since you nigs are being picky about that part
point is, thats a pretty ez way of making a grixis good guy
We're not being dicks. We're explaining a basic reason why your idea doesn't work.
On top of that, simply being made of something isn't enough to have you be that color. This guy would just be a mono-Red Demon. The reason Demons are all Black is marketing and their place as Black's iconic creature, and thus are made to fit within Black.
Besides, why would anyone want a Grixis hero who is only Black on a technicality? Or one that is just an edgier version of Chandra?
You can act outside of your color and not lose your main focus. That said, Lili was also shoehorned into being a protagonist by the whole Jacetice League thing needing a black ranger.
The fact that we had to explain all of this shows that you don't know enough about MtG lore to come up with this OC and declare the problem solved
hes black because of the mana that was used to create him, just like if a zombie is made from black magic, its gotta be black even if it becomes sentient and decides to be a savior of the people, he would be made as an orzhov creature on a card
and hes not edgy chandra hes a pussy who would run away from any fight where chandra would thow a bitch fit
nigger im talking about how hypothetically they would be able to make a story where the grixis person is a good guy, not the shitty current lore
>my demon OC isn't edgy! everyone he knows is just dead and he's hated for what he is
It's time to stop posting
I miss Toshiro.
The Wedges have bad flavor because the factions weren't planned to be tricolor from the begining
With three-colored factions you have to consider what they're not. So look at the two colors not included and what they represent together and three-colored faction is the opposite of that. So, for example, BR is all about selfish destruction and hedonism. GWU is instead about creation, modesty and submission to rightful authority.
>Green wanting immortality and not joining the circle of life through death.
>Implying immortality isn't the greatest gift of life.
>Implying it isn't the sign of a greater biological being.
>No Wedges with the correct central colors
>Mardu focused on White
>Temur focused on Blue
>Abzan focused on Black
>Jeskai focused on Red
>Sultai focused on Green
Maybe in a next block that is designed to explore the Wedges from the beginning. I hope they do it, Temur is my favorite color combination philosophy-wise
I find it hard to believe they'd try to do that. Maro has said that there was barely enough design space for one set that focused on them. I suppose the chances are greater now that there are no small sets and all sets are sel-contained though.
Wasn't Tarkir changed to be about wedges later into development? Plus the Shards were pretty unique and had elements from all colors
Starting to sound more Simic.
what youre saying is actually more golgari than mono-green
regardless 3 color characters dont ever embody everything about the colors so the walker is still "realistic"
Another question, what color do you hate the most playing with or playing against?
I dislike playing against a specific type of blue, which is mainly heavy control/counterspell blue. The occasional counterspell is fine, but when you're dealing with Forbid casts every turn on top of further bounce and lockdown, the game stops being fun.
I hate non-interaction combo decks
at least in casual multiplayer, in 1v1s I dont really care what I play against since thats just how competitive works
bump
I don't like playing Black. I find it hard to get into the mindset tbat Black can do anything for a price when other colors can do the thing I actually want without having to sac creatures or discard cards or whatever. At least Blue has some nice stuff you really can't get anywhere else
I don't really like playing Blue as much as other colors; it feels too reactionary rather than active, and setting aside the mana for counterspells is annoying. Blue with other things is more okay, like Blue/Green being great for generating Clues in Innistrad block.
Your Abzan description is way off, the Abzan are about family and team work. The protect themselves and take in orphans of war. The black is about their individuality and sand spirit resurrection. While the Abzan have strong and unique abilities they are able to share them with other in their clans. The are one of the better Khans before the time shift.
oh so theyre a sissy clan like selesnya
cute
Not really. doesn't have it quite right either. I'd classify them as closer to Orzhov, save for the fact that Green places more emphasis on their individual family's trade house rather than the individual's success, and gives them more respect for the spirits they use due to tradition and ancestor worship.
Selesnya is hippies. Abzan is cutthroat desert merchants who are all about prestige for their house, but have a culture that's smart enough to know that all backstabbing all the time isn't good for anyone, so they generally cooperate against the harshness of the desert and other clans.
I dislike playing against combo decks. Most of the ones I see are green or blue (usually both), so I'll say Green.
But if it's just regular Green where you ramp into a beatstick creature and throw around spells like Predator Strike and Creeping Mold, that's fine. And if it's a normal blue deck where you try to get out some flying creatures and counter my removal spells, that's fine too, those are okay and feel like I'm actually playing the game, as opposed to watching you tap and untap your mana junk for twenty minutes while you combo off and then kill me. That aint Magic, that's just public masturbation.
thats just the nature of new edh players
when you start playing you wanna cram as many infinites and tutors as you can into your deck since its so unique and special, and then when you get it off its pretty satisfying
and then when you actually get good at magic and you realize you can play vamp tutor/imp seal, and mana crypt/sol ring then you do it for a few games and realize ho boring it is to do the same shit with the same cards game after game thats when you either go into different formats or grow up and quit trying to be a cunt in edh
or both, but there are special cases where a guy just wont until no one wants to play with him anymore then he comes here and bitches about it, or bitches about the control player who refuses to use up his shit on the timmy casting huge shit so he can hold mana to stop the combo
The khans are so fucking shit, look at those garbage logos. I hope they do a second pass at a wedge themed set so we can get one that isn't awful in terms of flavor and mechanics.
Also you need the Coalition symbol at the very center.