Tell me about Kreia and her philosophy. Why does it trigger Veeky Forums so much?

because star wars cannot do "gray"
only bland extremes of light and dark
hence all the shitty movies and shitty shows
its no wonder good scifi rarely gets made when this flavorless shit sells so well

t. edgy teenager
>What do you mean, killing babies is bad? It's for the greater good, and thus morally grey

It only triggers OT purists

But that's right. There are some cultures that used to sacrifice children to have a good harvest.
Are you saying that they should've just starved to death?

>Why does it trigger Veeky Forums so much?
She's a very well written character with her own views and beliefs. She's simply a bitter old woman with a lot of grudges. People just view her teachings as something that's supposed to objectively represent canon, forgetting that it is a part of her character.

And on the personal note, I don't believe, that she wanted to kill the Force. I think, that it was just a lie in order to lure Exile on Malachor V and finish his/her apprenticeship by killing Kreia. If anything, she wanted to make another Revan rather than doom all galaxy to death.

This. Avellone is a real Fedora, and shouldn't go within a restraining order's distance of anything touching on spirituality or religion.

Look at Pillars of Eternity: the Big Reveal was "the Gods are created beings OMG" whereas in real polytheisms the Roman Senate deified Emperors, stole gods from other countries, made gods up as they went and if that didn't work mashed two old gods together to make a new one.

It contradicts established lore and gameplay mechanics.

She's cool but break the canon and thematics of SW.

...

Not an argument

Star Wars fans are manchildren that get butthurt when someone questions the retarded black and white morality.

Pretty much because at heart people on Veeky Forums like star wars. They like flat narratives where you can easily read what is going on and trust your party members. Think shit like mass effect 2, Fallout 3 and the likes.

Kreia's entire thing was to shit all over star wars, Lie her ass off to you and make the team dynamics as hostile as possible. I was pretty neutral for her personally due to not caring about star wars. But a lot of people won't take that very well.

>kreia lies and isn't 100% god or evil and therefore she breaks SW thematics
>obi-wan "from a certain POV" and yoda "finish your training instead of saving your friends" don't
:/

I love how fast you go into some idiotically absurd strawman instantly. This place really never changes.

She was annoying. Having her in my party would be like being stuck driving from Ohio to California with my ex-wife and no way to tune her out.

This might actually explain why I don't dislike her all that much. I never used her in my party due to how piss weak of a party member she was.

Someone didn't play Mask of the Betrayer (and isn't able to differenciate between the work and the author).

As for Kreia being a self-insert: She's a bitter old woman that failed her entire life and betrayed everybody, and tries to destroy the universe to get rid of the part she doesn't like; there are better way mouthpieces to convey your views.
She is a villain, and the fact that she isn't twirling her mustache or kicking puppies left and right doesn't make her Avellone's avatar by default.

>be me
>be inuit
>Chipak got herself teen pregnant (sloot)
>Elders carefully explain to her that in the current hunting environment, the thorp cannot support extra mouths to feed
>After it's born she leaves it in the snow to die of exposure so the village doesn't go from "hungry" to "malnourished"
>Meanwhile, for kids that arrive auspiciously, they're psychologically pampered compared to other cultures; they get to pick another household in town they live if their household is abusive.

Very teenager.
Such evil.
So murder.
Many edgy.

Wow.

>expecting anti-Kreia autists to be able to understand a slight shade of complexity beyond LE I DID IT ALL FOR THE WOOKIES XD Bioware writing and George "Jar Jar is the key to all of this" Lucas

redditlettermedia plz go

> Bioware writing

I still think the greatest thing knights of the old republic 2 did was make fun of the romances in KOTOR 1. Good lord those things were so half assed.

Stay mad I guess, brainlet?

>tries to destroy the universe to get rid of the part she doesn't like
I'm pretty sure she didn't really want to do it, if you're talking about "killing the Force". It would be pretty much against her character. She hates the Force, but she would rather achieve her victory by making the others see, rather than attempting to bluntly destroy the thing she opposes.

How did KOTOR2 do that?

She's trying to do to the force, what the necrons are trying to do to the warp

Kreia was the best force user party member if you weren't using force powers that much, because she turns into an insane buff machine for you and Handmaiden

That one scene where Hk-47 starts mocking the shit out of the old romances options. "Yes let us squeeze our slimy lips together in the back of the cargo hold."

It is sad that such a thread will gather hundreds of replies simply by allowing people to be mad at each other, while constructive threads reach the archives way earlier.

Indeed. Start at 2:35
youtube.com/watch?v=Qr81SliHytA

Yeah I tended to run a mixed build that could do that role easy enough. So I never really found any use out of her.

Disclaimer: Before you read this post, I just want you to know I never actually played KotoR, and so I have no fucking idea who Kreia is or what is her philosophy.

Honestly, I never fucking understood what's so bad about being a Darksider.
Dark Side is all about emotions, about being personal, about being passionate, about being someone who genuinely loves the things he does.
Light Side is all about reason, restraint, all about being impersonal and aloof.

It's the whole "duty vs. desire" dichotomy all over again. One isn't healthy without the other.
Absolute Law is no better than Absolute Chaos. YHWH's folly of restrictive hierarchy and rules for the sake of rules is no better than the absolute anarchy of demons and their "might makes right" outlook.

And just the same, Light Side is no better than the Dark Side. The jedi claim that they are trying to "bring the balance to the Force" by... eradicating the Dark Side? Like, fucking what.
It's not even druidic mentality of aggressive neutrality, it's just fucking plain delusional lies, just as deluded as the siths, to be fucking honest.

Light Side and Dark Side must coexist together, going through the endless cycle of ebb and flow, dawn and dusk, death and rebirth.
There was this interesting saying, something along the lines "good times breed weak people, weak people create hard times".
Well, if you rephrase it a bit, it fits perfectly.

Champions of the Dark bring the Dark times.
The Dark times breed champions of the Light.
Champions of the Light bring the Light times.
The Light times breed champions of Light.

>Champions of the Dark bring the Dark times.
>The Dark times breed champions of the Light.
>Champions of the Light bring the Light times.
>The Light times breed champions of the Dark.
fast fix

see Kreia pissed a lot of people in the same way that "Morrigan disapproves" became a meme. In a game where you're mecanically encouraged to go full light or dark side to reap those sweet force power benefits, she would get angry at gratuitous acts, be they good or evil.
This has a big influence on the game since she's the main source of exposition, and can give you some sweet stat buffs if she likes you. So you have to thread very carefully if you want to maximize your character.

Her philosophy is "be strong by yourself, and don't forget that everything is trying to manipulate you: others, me, even the Force". So she doesn't really enter in the darkside "be strong and rule over the weak" thing.

Another character with an original viewpoint for SW in this game is often forgotten character (because he isn't that interesting as a party memeber and comes quite late in the game): G0T0, that wants to kill all jedi and siths (or ensure that one size wins for good) just because force user wars regularly fuck up the entire galaxy.
If someone was Avellone mouthpiece, it would be him.

most based companion Bioware ever wrote

>"An alliance based around hatred is a fragile alliance at best"
>Veeky Forums is known for bandwagons of hate
She's smart, thats why.

kreia didn't trigger me.
I did want to slap her upside the head and be like WAY OF THE OPEN PALM BITCH.
I am -all about- stealing all exp opportunities from as many people as possible.

shes not nekkid

it makes me peepee very angry

Because it shits on the Force as defined in the OT in favor of a fanon strawman to set up as a punching bag for Kreia's oh-so deep take on it.

how so ?

I disagree. Light side jedi are about allowing the universe to mostly go about on it's own natural path, only stepping occasionally to try and avert the worst sort of tragedies and smooth thing over. Like a nice sort of farmer or gardener. Sith want to take the power open to them through the force and selfishly use it to achieve what they think should be.

>some cunt who's rude and disparaging towards you 24/7
>can't get rid off her

that's it, really.

she hates it if you help people because she believes that robs them of the chance to do it themself and improve themself, so good guy play throughs have trouble dealing with her

she hates it if you do things for reason that don't benefit you in any real way so evil just for an evil play through will make her mad

people forget she lies and is just a character in the game and for some reason think everything she says is how stars wars is supposed to be instead of you know being shit she thinks is true

the truth is she is a bitter old woman

Because the Force is basically a Platonic-ideal, with the Dark side being a perversion thereof.

It's not that shades of gray can't be interesting, or that moral relativism can't be explored in such a context, since in other respects the Force is just something which "surrounds us and binds us." It's that Kreia's brand of relativism contradicts the established canon, and it's pretty obvious that the writer has an erection for it.

And "I want to be a grey jedi" players also tend to be annoying

You know who was another awful Chris Avellone self-insert? Ulysses, from New Vegas.

He's really bad with that sort of stuff.

Kreia was just Nietzsche in old woman form. She didn't care how deep into light or dark side you were, just that you understood your own motivations and how to carry out your desires to their extremes.

I can't really listen to Ulysses' rambling about courriers without cringing. Imagine if Ulysses wasn't a courier, but had some other job. Like a gardener, or a trashman. I imagine he would rant with the same self-importance.

Thing there was that Ulysses was completely wrong and the entire point of the story with him was to point that out. He is a preachy bastard but he in the end is designed to fail. Which a self-insert by definition can't fail to prove their point.

youtube.com/watch?v=Qr81SliHytA

Because she's objectively wrong within the context of the Star Wars universe; this is a plot point in the game itself. Which is fine, she doesn't have perfect knowledge and she wouldn't be the first one to make incorrect assumptions about the nature of the Force.

However...Kreia is also your primary source of exposition in the game. So the fact that she's objectively wrong shoots over the heads of a lot of Star Wars "fans" (who should really know better), who take everything she says at face value and accept it as true.

I'm going to have to step in (for my Exile) here.

No, the Jedi Council was not right. They had a premonition that joining in the Mandalorian Wars would cause Jedi to fall to the Dark Side, and so refused to enter even though entire worlds were being burned. Revan called them out for the cowardly stance that was and took a third of the Jedi, mostly younger knights and padawans, with him.

And in the Mandalorian Wars they were confronted by terror and horror they hadn't been trained for, without the benefit of Masters who'd been through war before and made it through with their souls intact. And they encountered Dark Side artifacts like the StarForge without the benefit of Masters who could tell them to steer clear of them or destroy them.

And so they fell to the Dark Side.

It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Jedi Council could have helped the Revanchists, could have prevented their fall if only they'd joined. What the Revanchists needed wasn't more lightsabers, it was their knowledge and experience and wisdom.

The Jedi Council failed the Revanchists, and in so doing, allowed the Revanchists to become the very thing they were trying to avoid.

>and it's pretty obvious that the writer has an erection for it.

I'd disagree. If you run a full lightside character in the game, everything is objectively improved in the Galaxy as you go through it. If you play a full darkside character, everything is objectively worse for you having touched it. Play a gray character, and some things are better and some are worse.

I'm struggling to think of a single lightside decision that makes things worse, which you could have reasonably had the ability to anticipate. Even Kreia showing how giving a beggar some money can lead to that beggar's pain or death by others attacking him, is not reasonably your fault. You are not responsible for the actions of people you've never met.

The game's overall story enforces the idea that Light = Good, Dark = Evil, and more Good is better than more Evil or a balance of the two. It's only Kreia who insists on walking down some kind of middle path and claiming that it's better...but even in KotOR 2, there's no proof of this.

>The Jedi Council failed the Revanchists

Or they could have just obeyed and not gone to war. Jedi did nothing wrong in this case.

>Light Side is all about reason, restraint, all about being impersonal and aloof.

No, it's not. Look at arguably the most iconic moment in the original trilogy: Anakin turning back to the Force and saving his son.

He didn't do that out of reason or for aloof or impersonal motivations. Anakin Skywalker slew the Emperor out of love for his son, to save his son. And likewise, he was only able to have that leap because of Luke's absolute certainly that his father loved him and Luke's own love for his father, that familial connection.

(Big moment of revelation for me was when I realized that the title The Return of the Jedi can be interpreted as *singular*. It doesn't refer to the return of the Jedi Order, it refers to the return of a single, specific Jedi - Anakin Skywalker)

Likewise, Obi-wan Kenobi might never have had a girlfriend, but he loved Anakin as a brother, and clearly had great joy and zest for life.

Note as well that in an idealized Galaxy the Jedi do not impose any kind of absolute law, nor encourage it. Their role in the Republic is as advisors, mediators, and when necessary SWAT teams. We've never seen Jedi imposing their will on worlds; in fact they expressly serve the will of the Supreme Chancellor and the Senate.

I wouldn't say that Kreia is a moral relativist. She just had a lot of failures in her life (all her students, not knowing her daughter, getting kicked out of the jedi order AND the sith triumvirate) and blames that on the Force that has a plan for everyone, because the part of the plan that involves her is pretty shitty.

And then the Galaxy would have surrendered to the mandalorians with most of the worlds burned to the ground and their people reduced to slavery. Yay, jedi.

>Or they could have just obeyed and not gone to war

Which inevitably would have resulted in the Republic falling to the Mandalorians, or at the least the Jedi having to fight the Mandalorians eventually anyway once they started attacking Coruscant. The games and lore are ADAMANT about this - the Republic was saved by Revan and the Revanchist Jedi, the Republic would not have survived Mandalore the Ultimate's Crusade. We are never given a single reason to think that this is wrong or merely propaganda.

Sitting by and watching while people die while doing nothing to stop it is wrong. Especially when you know for a fact that sooner or later the person doing the killing is going to come for you, and yet your strategy is to continue as though everything is normal.

>And then the Galaxy would have surrendered to the mandalorians with most of the worlds burned to the ground and their people reduced to slavery. Yay, jedi.

You don't know the outcome. Fact is the Jedi were right, and the stupidest Jedi got corrupted for not listening.

SEE my own post on the matter. Star Wars lore is adamant that only Revan and the Revanchists saved the Republic. This isn't propaganda, this is fact.

>Star Wars lore is adamant that only Revan and the Revanchists saved the Republic.

Maybe they did, but that doesn't mean that their absence would have spelled certain doom either. The path untrodden is unknown.
Who can say how things would have turned out?

This is the real answer. The ruined what they were going for by making light side options almost always lead to shinybright outcomes and dark to edgy outcomes. It should have beem more like long term vs short term/impulsive with selfish and selfless for each.

Alright, maybe I phrased it wrong.
Dark Side is all about having control of the situation.
Light Side is all about losing control and letting it run course.

Neither is ALWAYS the optimal solution. Both sides have their good moments and bad moments. Pretending that one side is explicitly better than the other (or even self-sufficient without the other) is extremely fucking dumb.

>Light Side is all about losing control and letting it run course.

Then Jedi would do nothing ever.

Do they ever?
Remember that the only Jedi that ever actually managed to achieve anything were the ones who either died like dogs, or turned to the Dark Side.

>Do they ever?

All the time. They are the protagonists of the universe, and probably do more than any other set of people.

Revan goes do to war
>republic get fucking wrecked by mandos up to that point
>disobeying jedi+republic fleet (barely) manages to defeat the mandos due to force power and mass shadow generator crushing most mando forces in one single blow

Revan doesn't go to war
>republic get fucking wrecked by mandos up to that point
>republic forces are annihilated
>jedi are now alone and aren't known for their prowess in force projection
>can't use the mass shadow generator
>can't use the star forge
>mandos roam the galaxy freely
>mandos bomb dantooine, a despicable tactic according to Malak, a young jedi padawan

Sure, we don't know for sure what would have happened, but a republican victory seems VERY unlikely at that point.

>a republican victory seems VERY unlikely at that point.

Yet the tides of war are ever changing. Even if the Republic did fall, whose to say it wouldn't be replaced by something better?
Maybe the Mandalorians would have shat the bed before the war was over, or after the war was over.

No one can say, all we know was that the Jedi were right about going to war and falling to the Darkside. Which proves that they have some degree of foresight that you can pay attention to.

>Who can say how things would have turned out?

The guys writing the story. Who make it 100% clear that the Republic was screwed without Jedi help.

This isn't a "who knows what would have happened if Napoleon had won Waterloo" situation, this is fiction, so all we have to do to know the alternative is ask the guys writing the story, who have told us the answer: the Republic would fall.

>The ruined what they were going for

No, they didn't. Because Kreia is wrong and Kreia is SUPPOSED to be wrong. Her view on the Force is objectively incorrect within the context of the Star Wars universe.

It is solely her, a bitter old woman who's failed at everything she's ever tried, espousing this view, and it's wrong - she's failed at interpreting the Force just as she's failed at everything else.

BUT she's also the primary source of exposition in the game, so it's easy to be fooled by her and think that she might have a point. But what you are SUPPOSED to do is step back from her and everything she's saying and look at the world objectively. You'll see that she's wrong.

KREIA LIES.

The Dark Side is all about impulsive action and selfishness without consideration of others. Control is a side-effect of this, but ultimately the Dark Side isn't about *anything*. It's not chaos, it's self-destructive nihilism.

The original intent is that there is no dichotomy. There is the Force, and it has a Dark Side. But the Dark Side is an unnatural, cancerous growth within the Force. Bringing the Force "into balance" means removing the Dark Side, not creating some kind of yin-yang.

Luke neither died like a dog nor turned to the Dark Side, yet he is instrumental to saving the Galaxy from the Dark Side. Your argument is invalid.

In the interest of fairness, Revan didn't start using the Star Forge until AFTER the Mandalorian War, in order to build his Sith Empire.

Also while the Mass Shadow Generator helped in the final battle, the real thing that helped the Republic was Revan's tactics and strategies.

By having more Jedi around, the battles would have been a little easier, and especially with older and wiser Jedi around to help buoy the psyches of the padawans and younger knights, less Jedi would have fallen to the Dark Side. Revan would probably have never gone looking for the Star Forge, and the Republic would not have felt betrayed by the Jedi and thus even if Revan did go looking for the Star Forge no significant number of Republic troops would have followed him.

Even having found the Star Forge, it's entirely possible that Revan would have found it with the aid of other Masters, who would have known what they were looking at as a Dark Side artifact to be destroyed. Further, with Revan knowing that the Republic was not weak and the Jedi not weak or traitors, Revan would have no need of the Star Forge to build up a fleet to try and impose his will on the Galaxy in preparation for the true Sith Empire, becuase he'll be able to go directly to the Jedi Council and show them his proof of the true Sith Empire, and so the Republic will get an extra 300 years to prepare for the true Sith Empire's return, this time KNOWING about them rather than being blindsided.

Literally everything is better if the Jedi Council were to just get their heads out of their asses and, more importantly, stop letting fear dictate their actions.

>The guys writing the story. Who make it 100% clear that the Republic was screwed without Jedi help.

Yet they also made the Jedi right.

In the form of a self-fulfilling prophecy, nimrod. The Jedi don't get to be smug about their correct prediction when it only came to pass due to their own deliberate inaction.

>In the form of a self-fulfilling prophecy

No, just in general.
They wouldn't have fallen if they didn't go to war.

...

They would have fallen when the war came to their door steps, they were only correct because they didn't help to guide those who needed it most.

And they wouldn't have fallen if the entire Jedi Order had gone to war, either. Literally all the evidence points to this fact. Add in that the Republic would not have felt betrayed by the Jedi and thus there would not have been mass defections to the Sith, and you leave the entire Revanchist Sith Empire stillborn.

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That's why.

Because generations of Star Wars EU morons interpreted the Force as D&D Alignments (see this entire thread as proof). Chris Avellone hates D&D Alignments so he wrote her as a response to that. She's a counterargument to misunderstandings but is herself a giant misunderstandings.

Binary Light vs Dark was never the fucking point of Star Wars. Vader was a bad guy because he used the Force to push people around. Not because he farmed enough Dark Side points to get the 12th level Force Choke. Kreia's character falls apart when you realize she's a response to that kind of perspective taken as canon.

Female character that isn't young and sexually attractive.

That train of thought sounds a lot like Chamberlain prior to ww2.
>we shouldn't attack Hitler, a war will be costy, no matter how many countries he invades.
>partition of Poland.
>war against Germany is declared.
>phoney war and fall of France.
>5 years later.
>I told you we shouldn't have attacked Hitler, now Europe is ravaged and the british empire is finished.

>That train of thought sounds a lot like Chamberlain prior to ww2.

Look what fighting WW2 got Britain.
Dead Empire.

I dunno but when i was a kid her little lecture about giving money to the homeless guy and how it could have unforseen consequences changed my way of thinking. perhaps she isnt the best character in the SW universe but im glad i was exposed to her at that age.

Her philosophy is nihilism (the lame kind, at least), and it should be pretty self explanatory why that's gay as shit.

didnt trigger me. kinda see her point actually. i still play light side because mass murder is not my thing. the canon force is all over the place. the only possible explanation is that the force as a consciousness with specific likes and dislikes. force choking a bitch is dark but force pushing someone into a grinder is not. thats arbitrary as fuck.

in star wars ffg i made a joke character called darth jump who trained force jump until he just couldnt resist choking babies anymore.

Yeah, and if they had fucked the nazi at the beginning instead of dilly-dallying and allowing them to build alliances and absorb minor countries, the end result would have been far better for them.
So, self-fulfilling prophecy, like with the jedi council.

Only reason why people remember Kreia is because video game players had to face a confrontational character who could still be persuasive.

On the OT, the Force doesn't know the difference between a rock and a windpipe. Yoda all but says this. I always hated this notion of cataloguing the Force into spells with Alignment restrictions. Sheev wasn't evil because he shot lightning. He shot lightning because he was evil. There's a huge difference.

The Empire was already being dismantled by the British themselves prior to World War 2; they were already beginning to organize what would become the Commonwealth of Nations.

The British never really wanted an empire all that badly, anyway; what they wanted was trade (this is why the British normally preferred to play kingmaker in their colonies, support a local leader, rather than impose direct rule by themselves). Napoleon wasn't wrong when he called them a nation of shopkeepers. For a long time empire helped to facilitate that trade, but by the 1920s and 1930s most colonies became a money-sink with little real profit. India was the only one worth holding on to, and the writing was already on the wall at that point for the forward-thinkers in the Empire.

Note that Britain didn't fight any real colonialist wars in the 50s thru to the 70s, unlike, say, France. They gave Kenya, Somaliland, Togoland, and so on independence pretty much for the asking once India ceased to be under their control. All Britain wanted in return was favorable trade deals, which they got.

Obligatory

Technically, France made Viet Nam independant before the Indochina war, and then supported the Emperor of Viet Nam against a communist insurrection. And Britain was fucking mad when Nasser nationalized the Suez canal.

Lord of betrayal indeed.

>Sheev wasn't evil because he shot lightning. He shot lightning because he was evil.
Hey, I said exactly that in a thread exactly like this.

>Britain, France, Viet Nam, Egypt

Oh, I know. It's not a universal thing. My point was that the British Empire was already being dismantled by the British themselves, as it was largely no longer profitable (some colonies had actually never been profitable at all and had been taken solely to piss off first the French, and then the Germans). The Nazis at most sped up the process, but World War II wasn't what ended the British Empire, which didn't die anyway, it just changed into the Commonwealth of Nations.

She was right

Getting the jedi temple annihilated by Mandalorian turbo lasers is kinda wrong senpai.

Neither was yours, you fucking mongoloid