Do orcs go to the halls of Mandos?

He put Christopher in charge of continuity and told him to finish the job. For his part Christopher came up with nothing of hos own and just followed notes.

We don't know, Tolkien never decided whether orcs were twisted humans or elves. If we're taking the Silmarillion as law, then it's the latter, and they go to the Halls of Mandos.

I say yes, as the tortured elves origin is my favorite and the Halls are places of spiritual healing and judgment where they might finally find the redemption Tolkien wanted for them.
Can you picture it, Veeky Forums? Aman filled with happy elves and orcs living in blissful harmony?
>orcs as automatons is pleb-tier

Technically it'd just be happy elves, because healing the orcs would make them elves again.

Maybe the originals but their progeny are definitely a new species. Their idealized form would still be orkish.

>orkish

... and?

Orkish is the language. Orcish would be "orc like".

I don't think that's supported by any of Tolkien's notes (isn't the only language he mentioned for them the Black Speech dialect of Mordor) but anyway I selected orkish because orcish looks like that -c-'s gonna wimp out and become an -s- on me. But idc either way.

Appendix F. The Black Speech is the main language but orkish is the term for the all little languages each orc tribe uses.

Do Orcs reproduce? Can Humans be turned into Orcs? Tolkien described Orcs as being tortured Elves in the First Age, during which Elves were the only or majority race on Arda. But does that exclude the other races from becoming Orcs? I got the impression that domination was a big thing for Morgoth and Sauron so wouldn't it make sense that Orcs during the Third Age would be more than just tortured Elves?

>Do Orcs reproduce?
yes
Can Humans be turned into Orcs?
no
orcs are separate race that was created by Morgoth who used his corruptive powers on entire groups of elves.

In a way they can.

Hobbits are humans, and the corruption of Gollum is similar to Orcs although he's only first generation.

We just don't call corrupt humans Orcs, because Orc is specifically their culture. Like a werebear wouldn't be a Beornling.

You know one of the interesting things about the Silmarillion is that the nature of its creation and editing led to its own body of competing mythology, like English vs Frankish depictions of Arthurian lore.

Ah, that's the issue. I listened to the appendices as audiobooks.

fuck no, they're nowhere near as shitty as feanor

>Hobbits are humans, and the corruption of Gollum is similar to Orcs although he's only first generation.
I like to think that the maggot-folk of Mordor who made all the graffiti that we see (but never see the people specifically) were corrupted humans with albino skin and fangs and such. Basically like Gollum if his lineage had been slowly corrupted over several generations instead of being stuck in a microwave on NUKE for 500 years.

>Feanor
>shitty
You what? If not for him, Middle Earth would've been left in darkness with all the avari and men (who, possibly, would not have awoken)

>Eru's themes were dependent on the Kinslayer
Yeah okay

>no one could ever change, influence or warp any of Eru's designs
yup absolutely
Kinslaying was dumb, what he did to his son was disgusting and all the lets-burn-everything stuff was outright insane, but at least he tried to do something. At least he succeeded in getting the Noldor to leave Valinor and actually fight Morgoth. Which, in turn, gave the avari and the edain a chance to survive.

He would get a kick out of that I think.

Tolkien never answered the question, at least to his own satisfaction, on the origin of the Orcs. As a Catholic he hated the idea of an entire race being damned by their birth (Catholics being universally opposed to double predestination, and finds that predestination itself is irrelevant to salvation given the nature of God. To quote the catechism, " God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621"). But he also wouldn't allow evil to create life in his setting, causing him to struggle to come up with a suitable explanation for Orcs.

Personally, I find the best explanation to be that they are beasts shaped like perversions of elves and man, and given a shallow sentience powered by Melkor and later Sauron. This would explain why they become confused and scatter after Sauron's defeat. It would also mean that, like beasts, they have lesser souls that are obliterated on death and are thus free from any moral problems. "Orc baby, wat do?" for a Gondorian Orc Hunt is therefore no more a question than "Boar baby, wat do?" in a Texan Boar hunt.

It doesn't say anything clearly. It says the elves think they're tortured elves. Chris Tolkien was careful abut the wording in order to somewhat sidestep the whole problem.

Then why the fuck did they exist before the age of sun?

Imagine being this autistic

>Personally, I find the best explanation to be that they are beasts shaped like perversions of elves and man, and given a shallow sentience powered by Melkor and later Sauron. This would explain why they become confused and scatter after Sauron's defeat. It would also mean that, like beasts, they have lesser souls that are obliterated on death and are thus free from any moral problems. "Orc baby, wat do?" for a Gondorian Orc Hunt is therefore no more a question than "Boar baby, wat do?" in a Texan Boar hunt.
I guess I can understand that, but I prefer the idea that I think Tolkien himself came up with (though I can't give you a direct reference, sorry) that the Orcs *were* capable of doing good, but they lived in a culture where a good Orc wouldn't survive, and having the will of Sauron/Morgoth on them for as long as either was around meant that they were filled with hate all the time anyway.

Besides, maybe if an Orc *did* turn away from evil, it wouldn't be an Orc anymore, but an Elf instead.

The Dance Hall of Mandos, it's next door and the EDM bass keeps up the elves who are trying to rest in peace.

Nah, the go to the Halls of Orcdos.

Except Tolkien also detailed that the Noldor do not mistreat their POWs, indicating he thought of the Orc Baby Question and decided they don't treat them like animals.

That's been getting more popular lately and I really dislike it. For one, an elven form is not an indication of moral virtue but for two, it's so much easier and more satisfying to imagine humble, good orc peons.

What I said was an idea he came up with too. He toyed around with a lot of them. Your one is the one I consider best if the Orcs are perversions of Elves or Man.

I actually favor yours, and mine, as the ways he would have most likely gone had he had more time. If he had lived longer, we may have had a children's story about a friendly orc in the spirit of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil but actually connected to the universe. I get the impression though he disliked the whole origin of Orcs as twisted Elves, and Chris says as much in one of the books he published.

I was referring to the Men awakening. There's 0% chance Fëanor's actions or lack thereof could prevent such a fundamental part of the music.
>besides, who knows what would have happened of Fëanor wasn't such a massive cock and humbled himself before the Valar

's just as much a state of mind. Like he said about life in the trenches, "we were all orcs". Granted they probably mightn't have looked all that different, but I'd bet you would have been able to tell somehow. Maybe if one turned up in Mandos, for instance.

He may have disliked it but personally I'm glad it's the closest to canon. It has a thematic resonance sentient mud or man-beasts don't (and really, that wouldn't render them truly inhuman and thus okay to genocide).
Think about it. Elves are the Children of the First Theme, the one Melkor first corrupted and necessitated a completely different world with different, mortal Children. Everything about the First Theme proved untenable in a fallen world, so orcs being twisted elves mirrors this perfectly.
Also, I love Tolkien, but as he aged he got a little precious about elves (this example, wanting to make Galadriel 100% good, etc.)

Oh, I should probably note I agree with this guy too. At least when it comes to form.

There were always men who fought for Morgoth and Sauron. It should be assumed that those are who it's in reference too given that the Noldor sought to exterminate the orcs after the War of the Wrath but were unable to do so.

I'd buy that their fëa may become essentially elven, sure. It's just in my mind the only possible good orcs in the societies we see would be unobtrusive peasants seeing to their families and for that they'd need to stay orcs. There's not gonna be any Drizz't running around.
I'd imagine a decent percentage of orcs were good, or at least as good as the average human. Lower percentage than humans due to Religion of Evil and Fascism, but still, poor simple people tend towards gentleness.

Did they? Citation needed because I don't remember a single reference to any systemic campaigns. At most there's gonna be a line like "but some orcs survived and hid under the mountains" implying they'd rather the orcs hadn't.

The closest thing I can recall of any attempt to exterminate the Orcish race was the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, where the Dwarves went up and down the Misty Mountains annihilating every orcish stronghold they could find.

From what little detail the narration gives of it, it was about as grey morality-wise as the setting got.

"Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light."

Not only does that lead me to believe no elven genocides were undertaken (or at least the Nõldor policy applied to orcs as well) but also that orcs-as-automatons or not-truly-sapient-beasts is incompatible with the larger lore. Tolkien sabotaged himself too much with lines like this acknowledging people could be cruel to orcs or giving them social mores. And good, I say. I don't understand people who want them to be duck droids.

Okay, you're correct, but those men probably would've been utterly corrupted by Morgoth or just wiped out.
>besides, who knows what would have happened of Fëanor wasn't such a massive cock and humbled himself before the Valar
Morgoth still would've stolen the stones and killed Finwë, and Fëanor still would've been mad at the Valar.

But perhaps they would have gone to retrieve the silmarils if Fëanor released his claim? Rode untrodden and all that.

The Silmarillion explicitly mentions the orcs that survived having escaped to do so, and those orcs that escaped are the progenitors of all existing orcs in future stories.

>Tolkien sabotaged himself too much with lines like this acknowledging people could be cruel to orcs or giving them social mores

Except he didn't, on both accounts. You can be cruel to a rabid wolf, despite the rabid wolf not having a soul and being an actual danger to those around it, but it's still a grave sin to do so. The Dwarves committing cruelties is less a measure of Tolkien seeing the Orcs as people (especially since the War of the Dwarves and Orcs was written early in the legendarium at the time when Orcs were actually just creations of Morgoth out of slime), and more a measure of how war brings out the worst in people. A more reasonable message from someone who was in the trenches of Somme and was deeply effected by his time in war.

Nah, I don't buy it. Not when Tolkien himself explicitly refused to call them irredeemable. But my point had more to so with audience interpretation than his intent anyway. I'm no DeathoftheAuthorfag but between his indecision and the capitivating if rare examples of orc personality and culture, it's just too reductive to treat them like automatons (and really, it just seems to be for the sake of pleasing grognards upset they can't guiltlessly murder always-CE porcs). After all, he drifted away from tortured elves later in life but doesn't that mean he firmly moved away from automatons even earlier?

>Rode untrodden
It wasn't Feanor being a dick that made the Valar angry, it was him massacring the Telleri. The Valar in any case seemed in no hurry to move against Melkor (Feanor waits twenty years before organizing his exodus) and would likely have settled into some sort of containment policy, rather than trying to dig him out in another apocalyptic clash.

But my point was that if Fëanor released claim to the silmarils to resurrect the Trees, maybe they would (admittedly selfishly) gone after them.
Anyway, it's a hypothetical. "Fëanor did nothing wrong" just bugs me but then that's not what you're saying.

In one half of the Halls live the Elves, perfect, beautiful, singing songs of sorrow and mourning, lamenting all that has passed, forever.

In the other half live the Orks, happy in a rowdy, belligerent way, possessed of a feral attractiveness, fighting each other, organising keg stands, and bellowing off-key drinking songs for the rest of time.

So it is written, so it shall be: fanon for all time!

I imagine Mandos looks different to every race - a proud and severe elf to the Eldar, a mysterious hooded stranger to Men, a bottomless pit to dwarves, and to orcs, well
>pic related

So Valhalla vs some faglord country club. Looks like mead's back on the menu, boys.

Yes, yes, or alternatively

Lúthien is the only being to make Mandos weep, but Shaghur the Leaper is the only one to make him laugh.

Valarhalla, if you will.

Pretty sure a few tears of mirth escaped from all of Turin's hilarious escapades.

For this he was permitted to return to Middle-Earth for one last great act.
He pissed in Zûbûk's grog. That'll show tha wanka

The only reason we have that he moved from atomatons was because he decided that the evil powers should not be able to create life in his universe, much like Satan cannot create life in ours. With that in mind, he went to that they were elves twisted by torture, but was later strongly disinclined to the idea because of the moral questions that raised. Questions he didn't want.

In no way does a lesser soul indicate that they're automatons, which is a fundamentally flawed perception of the entire issue. Take this from Morgoth's Ring, "I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted I converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters."

Orcs, and Wargs, and Trolls all posses the lesser souls of beasts and are perversely "elevated" in mockery of the creations of Eru down to the finite details.

Jesus, please keep your budget 40K-Ork Speech to yourself.

Except that's all internal deliberation on Tolkien's part and he, as Christopher has often pointed out, was mindful of the difference between published content on his ongoing drafts. I see no reason to take any of that as canon over the Silmarillion (published by the son Tolkien appointed as his literary executor as thus 100% canon by all legal and logical rights) and the impressions made in LotR. Do you take Galadriel's later backstory as canon over the Sil's? Why would you when the point of a canon is to discuss the confirmed content with the larger audience - the Histories can't function for that purpose (being explicitly drafts and private essays with very limited readership).

Oi piss off willya

>idealized
>still looks like an orc
Choose one and only one

>this mug
>not the idealized form

Weren't the ones doing farmwork for orcs all or mostly human slaves?

I don't so. Their word for slave (snaga) is only seen applied to other orcs. They probably took slaves of other races all the time but due to convenience used mostly smaller orcs.

Aragorn gifted fertile land in Mordor to liberated human slaves.

Okay, and?

LOOKS LIKE A CHEEKY MANDO'S IS ON THE MENU, BOYS

>Except that's all internal deliberation on Tolkien's part and he, as Christopher has often pointed out, was mindful of the difference between published content on his ongoing drafts
>I see no reason to take any of that as canon over the Silmarillion (published by the son Tolkien appointed as his literary executor as thus 100% canon by all legal and logical rights)

Tolkien -was- mindful of the differences between published content and his ongoing drafts, the latter being the Silmarillion, which included content and lore that he did not want in it but was published by Christopher for historiological, and realistically, monetary purposes. Tolkien actively wanted to change the nature of Orcs, among many other things before he published the Silmarillion, but died before he could. Christoper published what was most complete, not what was the most satisfying to either him or his Father. The "confirmed canon" to the larger audience is utterly irrelevant when we are discussing the finer details of the universe never settled on and intent of the author. The fact that the histories have limited readership means fuck all to me over the fact that they provide essential insight into a fundamentally incomplete legendarium, one that must be pieced together from the few finished and many unfinished works (which includes the Silmarillion, and the histories) and letters.

Once that is done, people will and should come to their own conclusion. Yours isn't even incorrect. If Orcs are to be taken as the corruption of Elves, then they would have complex souls and are capable of redemption.

Well argued, but re: that final point, shouldn't orcs be considered to be redeemable given that letter? Even if they have "beast-souls" Tolkien wouldn't go so far as to condemn the lot.

If they have "beast-souls" they can't be redeemable or unredeemable. Just like dogs can't. Dogs don't go to heaven pal.

>Dogs don't go to heaven pal.

This movie was false heresy, friend

Granted, some dogs go to hell.

Then imo the letter trumps a private essay. One was communicated and one was rumination. Orcs are redeemable and thus are fully sapient with souls.

Nah. Tolkien never finalized his idea on what made the Orcs. The Silmarilion states that they were elves, but IIRC Christopher Tolkien just left it in for some reason despite knowing it was not exactly what his father thought.

I always liked the concept that Melkor managed to create a Frankenstein's flame imperishable which is why the Orcs have a hard time functioning without the guide of a higher being.

Also, I really found the small passage saying that out of all, the Orcs hated their master the most really interesting in the Silmarilion. Really shows that there's many things going for Tolkien's orcs beneath the typical perception people have. Shame he didn't come up with a conclusion.

TurnerMohan does amazing Tolkien art

The Orc sections of TT and RotK were among the most intriguing for me; one of my favorite quotes
>Swine is it? How do you folk like being called swine by the muckrakers of a dirty little wizard? It’s orc flesh they eat, I’ll warrant.

Oh yeah. He's great. My favourite part is the mini-essays he writes underneath each one explaining his thought processes behind the picture, it's fascinating.

orcs don't go anywhere because they aren't real

Shit like this is what makes me think they must be fully sapient (or at least the difference is so thin as to be insignificant; after all you shouldn't just slaughter dolphins or elephants).

Probably not because they'd take it over.

My man Melkor did literally nothing wrong.

>did nothing wrong
>tried to enslave everything and when he proved too stupid for that, destroy it all
I know it's a meme but still. Mairon had least has two working brain cells.

>proved too stupid

You mean got ganged up on by literally every Ainu and they still took thousands of years to actually beat him.

Yeah. Proved so stupid that he completely failed to persuade any Ainur of quality except Gothmog and Mairon to join him and then spent the next few millenia cucking himself to bodily mortality to the point a single elf could maim him.
>reminder Tolkien stated Sauron at the end of the Second Age was mightier than Morgoth

Wrong, Tolkien said Sauron's position was mightier by comparison. After Valinor fucked off following WW1 and abandoned Middle-earth Sauron had literally no equals. The closest was Galadriel and he could've cucked her up any time he chose, if he had the Ring.

Remember that Tolkien said literally and repeatedly that the only person stronger than Morgoth was Eru.

...

Nope. He said he was physically mightier than fully physical Morgoth. Anyway, your shitpost was that he did nothing wrong when, even if you're such an edgelord as to think he did nothing ethically wrong, he still completely fucked it up so if nothing else he did it incorrectly.

Do rocks have their own hall?

>the only person stronger than Morgoth was Eru.
Despite the fact that Tulkas can bodyslam him all day every day, and that Turin will be the one to finally slay him.

It's just so completely hilarious that not all the Valar together could defeat Melkor until Eru sent one who was just the god of wrasslin
Anyway, Morgoth a bitch, Mairon the one true Dark Lord

>Tulkas
Arguable. He beats him when he's at his weakest, but he doesn't really fight him in the first War. Morgoth is fighting off and kicking the asses of all the other Valar who didn't join him, Tulkas is some weird outside contender that shows up, and Morgoth takes off to the Void. They never actually fight, and when they do in the War of Wrath Morgoth doesn't even have a percentage of his strength left.
>Turin
Dagor Dagorath (at least the version told by Mandos) is confirmed to not happen.

Fuck now I want Dagor Dagorath advertised like a wrestling match or a Monster Truck show.
>SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!