So if Lion ever returns, what do you think he will do with the whole Chapters thing...

>So if

Not if. Two words and you are already a traitor.

>Lion ever returns

I think you mean Warmaster Lion. Someone step in and stop this traitor before he covers up his treachery.

I can't read the rest of this it's nowhere near loyal enough. Come back when you have an OP worthy of Top Primarch Of the First And Only Real Legion Warmaster Lion "Loyalty Is It's Own Reward" El'Johnson, Who Beat Russ With One Punch.

Not really pre-codex. When Guilliman wanted to destroy the legions, Lion, Russ and Dorn were the ones that were agains't Guilliman's reforms

Lion wasn't around to be against or for them.
Vulkan, Russ and Dorn were against.
Guilliman, Corax, the Khan, the Iron Hands, the Blood Angels were for. Dark Angels too, because they didn't want to attract to much attention to themselves, so they just fell in line.

The Unforgiven functionally are a legion anyway, because they take all their orders from the Rock and answer to the Dark Angels.

I think the Lion will have far more to talk about with his legion regarding the fact that loyalty is its own reward.

>because they take all their orders from the Rock and answer to the Dark Angels.
*pertaining to the Long Hunt

The Unforgiven are already a legion in everything but name and I think he's pragmatic enough to see the benefit of that and not try and trigger another civil war by officially reuniting his sons together as an overt legion.

Not sure how he'd appreciate the "hunt the fallen 24/7 and teamkill to protect the secret" shtick the DA have though given how much it compromises their actual job as soldiers of the imperium.

He'll probably defer to huilliman if he wakes up. He is a superior soldier and tactician, but he knew Guilliman was a better head of state and political leader.

It was after the fleet returned from the siege of terrain iirc

Is there any actual word on him returning? I want to see the loyalest of all Primarchs go full Imperial Creed to trigger secularist Guilliman.

I would actually really like that to be a story point. Reunites the legion and creates strife with guilliman in doing so without permission.

NEW BOOK WHEN?

I'm interested to see how the whole Primaris thing is handled by the more independent chapters. The Dark Angels and Space Wolves, in particular, seem like they'd never accept Cawl's meddling.
Also curious to see which daemon primarch they'll bring back to oppose Jonson. Really Fulgrim and the EC should have come back to oppose Rowboat rather than DG.

really though I'm mostly concerned with having a primarch model that doesn't look like absolute rubbish.

If the Lion comes back isnt he going to be outclassed completely?

The Daemon Primarchs are more powerful than normal Primarchs for one thing. And Guilliman has his whole super special life-support armour making him stronger. Russ when he comes back with be all Wulfen and 'special'. What will the lion have to make up for the others special bonuses?

This is a pretty good question i hadn't thought of, but your right, every primarch that's back or could come back will be suped up some way, ether from warp fuckery or mechanicus fuckery.

Any one got any ideas of if the lion comes back what would make him on the same level? not well versed in him or his legions fluff.

>Russ when he comes back with be all Wulfen and 'special'.
The wulfen are not a good thing.
>What will the lion have to make up for the others special bonuses?
He already have his superior mind and god-tier blade skills.

>The wulfen are not a good thing.
Statswise they're fucking rape trains with no brakes compared to normal astartes.

>He already have his superior mind and god-tier blade skills.
So if Russ and the Lion fought equally well before the HH, then how will he compete with Russ afters he's been in the Eye for 10,000 whilst the Lion has just been chilling in the Rock?

>Statswise they're fucking rape trains with no brakes compared to normal astartes.
Not lorewise
>So if Russ and the Lion fought equally well before the HH, then how will he compete with Russ afters he's been in the Eye for 10,000 whilst the Lion has just been chilling in the Rock?
So what? There is a lot of time fuckery there, it may as well have passed only a few days in his point of view

>Not lorewise
But they are? They carry round Thunder hammers one handed and other relics that the Wolves thought were only for their Primarch or decorational.

>There is a lot of time fuckery there, it may as well have passed only a few days in his point of view
Or it could be the exact opposite. Considering the 13th came out all Wulfen why expect any thing different from Russ?

Wow they're going to release a THIRD traitor primarch before making a loyal one after guilliman?

>HAHA LOLOLOL XD UBVOAT PARTY!!!1!
You have to go back.

Super originalio joke, friendo.

this is the most retarded thing i've read in a while

>He is a superior soldier and tactician

This is some powerful autism

And powerful canon.

Who cares about this traitor?

Luon murdered his own men all the time. Guy was the posterboy for team killing fucktards.

The canon often contradicts itself.

>The Daemon Primarchs are more powerful than normal Primarchs for one thing
Wrong. The Chaos Gods could only corrupt The Emperor's work, not improve it. If you know anything about how a Daemon Prince is made, and how the Primarchs were, you'd understand that they should be at best the same, and at worst weaker.
>b-b-but they're bigger
Yes, and? They also have a fuckton of weaknesses that they didn't before, and most of their newfound warp abilities are completely worthless in Primarch combat. Lion stomps just about anyone.

t.cuck lords

He is, though. Lion is straight up stated to be the greatest military commander of the Primarchs, and he's demonstrated he's arguably the strongest fighter as well.

What about fulgrim? He who almost absorbed the lifeforce of his brother, and used it to form a custom daemon body?

Fulgrim is probably the best fighter, but Lion has absurd reflexes and intuition from his latent psyker abilities and crazy childhood. I'd bet on Lion against just about anyone not named Sanguinius.

>. Lion is straight up stated to be the greatest military commander of the Primarchs
Even Guilliman believes that

Probably the easiest route for GW to manage

>He is, though.

Clearly not, since Guilliman is his superior.

Not in those categories, which is what is being discussed.

Is this GW market research?

Lion fundamentally finds Robs approach to be the wrong solution to the problem he was/is dealing with: getting those chaos AWOL fucks to repent. Not changing how we set up our legions to minimize the effects of chaos AWOL bullshit. It's the whole; do we build walls or tanks?

I would say there is a plot arc here when Lion gets back that is waiting to mind fuck our lore. Lion will have to temporarily give in, or at least accuse Rob of heresy with the primarch illegal ass bullshit. Lion would not accept Robs new reality. I could see him going Chaos.

He is though, how can the Lion be a better military commander when Guilliman takes more worlds, faster and with less casualties?

So Lion, the most loyal marine, shows up and retcons all the crap Ronald Bower brought into the universe with him? 40k goes back to being grimdark instead of AoS in space??

Cause he had by far the largest Legion? And Lion was still right behind him. Robert is better at planning the logistics of a campaign and at creating and managing a government, but actually forming and implementing a strategy and commanding his forces during a battle? Lion runs circles around him.

>Lion ''LOYALTY IS IT'S OWN REWARD'' El'Jonson
>going Chaos

>Cause he had by far the largest Legion?

Which he conjured from nowhere?

> Lion runs circles around him.

Why then are the Ultramarines said to be the finest tacticians?

Well I was referring to the whole, Demon Primarchs are worse than Primarchs, despite the whole, Fulgrim gaining psychic powers, and becoming far quicker. Fulgrim is not the commander or decision maker Lion is, but hes a much deadlier fighter, even before getting juiced up on Slaanesh power. Also, I'd bet on Magnus and Russ over Lion. Magnus due to immensely powerful Psyker, as well as being bigger than Lion, and Russ because of the whole, designed to kill Primarchs thing.

>Which he conjured from nowhere?
I don't understand. Are you unaware that Ultramarines were the largest of the original 20 Legions? It's also implied that it's because they absorbed the II and the XI, but regardless, they were the largest. Do you not know your favorite faction's basic lore?
>Why then are the Ultramarines said to be the finest tacticians?
Firsty, that has nothing to do with their Primarchs. Secondly, Dark Angels shift most of their focus on hunting The Fallen and hiding their secrets from The Imperium, which involves staying low profile. So while the smurfs are parading, DA's are playing everyone like fiddle while still managing to rack up impressive traitor/xeno kills.

Dorn is the best military mind and there are like 6 who would beat Lion in a fight.

>I don't understand. Are you unaware that Ultramarines were the largest of the original 20 Legions?

They were, but they only got to be so by conserving their lives with good tactics and superior logistical ability.

>It's also implied that it's because they absorbed the II and the XI

No it's not, that's a fanciful rumour from a Word Bearer.

>Firsty, that has nothing to do with their Primarchs.

It's everything to do with the Primarchs. Marines take after the character of their Primarch on a biological level and often follow their philosophy as well. Hence why the Ultramarines are the greatest of them all and the Dark Angels are broody faggots.

>despite the whole, Fulgrim gaining psychic powers, and becoming far quicker
Considering a vast majority of Magnus' psychic powers and sorceries have little effect on his brothers, it's safe to assume that Fulgrim's would be useless. As for speed, Gulliman was able to put up a fight, and Lion is far, FAR more dangerous then Guilliman. It's also wroth noting that Lion literally blitzed Curze, a Primarch notorious for his speed and skill, while Curze was looking at him. Lion is very underrated when it comes to his strength, even Horus underestimated him, thinking Curze would win for sure, before Lion destroyed him.
>Also, I'd bet on Magnus
Magnus on paper should be able to kill the others put together, but obviously that is not the case. His most recent performance against Guilliman gives me little confidence in his chances against Lion.
>as well as being bigger than Lion
Didn't help against Gulliman in melee, and honestly even Russ was obviously dominating him physically.
>and Russ
>because of the whole, designed to kill Primarchs thing
Kek, Russ lost every Primarch fight he's ever been in, INCLUDING Lion.
>muh cheap shot
Russ started that fight with a cheap shot of his own. It was fair game.

>Dorn is the best military mind
You're literally the first person i've ever heard say this. And i'm a MASSIVE Dornfag. Dorn had many qualities, including strategy, but he's behind Lion, Horus and Guilliman there.
>and there are like 6 who would beat Lion in a fight
Please name them.

>Marines take after the character of their Primarch on a biological level and often follow their philosophy as well.
I know that. But DA's are a little busy trying to sort their shit out and keeping a low profile to have a pissing contests with the most high profile chapter.
>Hence why the Ultramarines are the greatest of them all and the Dark Angels are broody faggots.
Ok, i'll admit, that was a good one.

Russ beat Magnus dummy

No, Russ was about to get killed by a weakened Magnus before being saved by his super wolves.

Doubtful

>I know that. But DA's are a little busy trying to sort their shit out

But even at the time of the Heresy the Ultramarines were superior.

Fulgrim gained powers that he uses to kill a Warhound titan. Also, Fulgrim is acknowledged as the most skilled fighter, and the hardest to beat one on one. Russ is responsible for the deaths of the two lost primarchs (confirmed in lore). The three other fights he has had were Lions, where Russ stopped fighting, began laughing at why they were fighting, and left himself open. The start of the fight was Russ punching Lion in the face, then letting Lion get up and prepare. The two aren't remotely the same. Against Angron, its confirmed Russ drew Angron into a trap to show Angron the power of the Space Marine Legion using tactics. And Against Magnus, it was a fight to a Standstill, that ended with Magnus getting broken over Lemans knee.
The whole, Magnus was about to kill russ, and Magnus was weakened bullshit? Magnus had been meditating in his personal chambers, while Russ had been fighting non-stop all the way to the main pyramid.

He would think he's being loyal and we would be teased that he will go Chaos, then GW would either retcon the Rowboat conversation with Emps, or Lion would contest it and call out the Ultramarines for the heretics they are.

>making 10 thousand primarchs

Like that doesn't fuck your own Codex Astartes in the ass. Rowboat is a heretic by his own definition and all others.

Cause they had more people.

Yes, because they were better at war.

When has GUilliman made even one primarch?

>Fulgrim gained powers that he uses to kill a Warhound titan
Even human psykers can do that.
>Also, Fulgrim is acknowledged as the most skilled fighter, and the hardest to beat one on one
Most skilled, sure, but literally no one had ever claimed he was strongest one on one. It was always Horus, Sanguinius or Angron that were mentioned when the Primarchs talked about this.
>Russ is responsible for the deaths of the two lost primarchs (confirmed in lore)
Source.
>The start of the fight was Russ punching Lion in the face, then letting Lion get up and prepare
I agree.
>Lion gets sucker punched out of fucking nowhere because Leman is retarded
>immediately gets up
>Leman gets clobbered by the guy he's been fighting for hours and who is standing right in front of him
>gets put into a fucking coma
Hilarious.
>Against Angron, its confirmed Russ drew Angron into a trap to show Angron the power of the Space Marine Legion using tactics
Except Angron didn't give a shit about that, so nice job.
>And Against Magnus, it was a fight to a Standstill, that ended with Magnus getting broken over Lemans knee.
No, it was Magnus ripping out Leman's heart, stabbing him with a psyching blade and preparing for the deathblow before being jumped by Leman's wolves, killing them and then injuring Leman again. Leman then blindly swings in agony and by sheer retarded luck hits Magnus' one weakspot.
>Magnus was weakened bullshit?
Magnus' mental state was EXTREMELY compromised, which had a profound effect on his abilities. Also, during his battle with Leman, he was splitting his concentration and power between protecting the last survivors of Prospero, talking with Ahriman, casting a giant ritual and beating the shit out of Russ.
>Russ had been fighting non-stop all the way to the main pyramid
To a Primarch, that was a walk in the park.

Bullshit, by your logic, Lorgar was the second best military leader out of all the Primarchs, and Fulgrim was among the worst.

>Bullshit, by your logic, Lorgar was the second best military leader out of all the Primarchs

Not necessarily. The Word Bearers had a shitty conquest rate. While the Ultramarines had the best.

Nice blog faggot

>Russ is responsible for the deaths of the two lost primarchs (confirmed in lore).
The absolute state of fucking yiff-fags. In Russ' own words we know that he never killed a Primarch. What a joke.

The Sons of Horus had the best conquest rate. The Ultras had more compliances.

But your logic is that since they're the best at war they had the most people, which Word Bearers disprove since they had the second most yet were shit.

That's the same thing.
Ultras were best.

t. retard.

t. Butthurt his favorite legion is objectively dogshit next to the Ultramarines.

Hes a dark angel fanboy. They are the worst legion by far.

Is this the new meme now that Guillimans back? Please go read about what a compliance was then kill yourself for being such a dick jockey.

Not even the same guy, and Dark Angels aren't my favorite Legion.

>Is this the new meme now that Guillimans back?

Are you new?
>Led by their incredibly efficient Primarch, the Ultramarines record more triumphs and liberate more worlds than any other Legion.

Ultramaens are the best.

The Luna Wolves were the best and Horus was the best Primarch. That is indisputable canon. Everyone else argues over second place because no one disputes who is first.

Once again they had more compliances, not victories. Dont worry I'll wait for you to figure out what the difference is.

Ultramrines were demonstratably the best on account of their superior record.

>more triumphs and liberate more worlds than any other Legion.

The Lion had the most confirmed testicle touches among primarchs

Just look it up user, its not that hard. Learn from your mistakes dont just repeat them.

I've already proved I'm right though.

Nice troll I got hooked.

You have nothing.
Over and over it has been repeated that the Ultramarines were the best legion

>The Dark Angels and Space Wolves, in particular, seem like they'd never accept Cawl's meddling.
They have because GW wants to sell models and doesn't want the fanbase to miss out on "the future of space marines" (even though for some reason Primaris SW and BA avoid all mutation and thereby lose the gimmick each faction has).

SW primarius still have the canis helix

Guilliman had more compliant worlds, not the most victories. The Sons of Horus, followed by Dark Angels and then by Space Wolves had the top victories.

>and then by Space Wolves

Wrong. Ultramarines are top 3, if not #1/2.

Are you a retard? If a world is full of xenos, you slaughter them, not convince them to join your Imperium.
Hence why the Sons of Horus were better at war than the ultrasmurfs

Only on their own novels, which means nothing. Every single novel based on a certain chapter/legion trains to paint them as the best

But it's not a mutation

Source?

Fuck you faggot how about you give a source for your bullshit SW statement
How about you give a source for someone else getting #1 to debunk the Ultramarines claim

Or how about you just STOP TALKING ABOUT SHIT YOU KNOW NOTHING OF

Ultramarines being one of the most successful legoins during the Crusade is COMMON FUCKING KNOWLEDGE

Stop fucking squawking for source on SHIT YOU SHOULD ALREADY FUCKING KNOW

Your source proves nothing. I do agree that ultracucks had more compliant worlds, but it does not mean that they had more victories.

Either way
>By some records.