G'day, Veeky Forums!

Aside from mechanical criticisms, the one thing I do want to see them fix is how they handle AI.

Although people overstate it, with murder being only one of three presented options, I still think it'd be more interesting if Unshackled AI weren't instantly out to kill you. Having to negotiate, bargain or otherwise placate them, in the middle of a tense conflict, could be some really interesting RP.

The concept of Rampancy from Halo would be an interesting idea to go with.

Vaguely related, I don't suppose anyone has a Broken Worlds (the KSBD FBA hack) PDF, do they?

Were there updates after this one? I can't even remember when I picked this one up.

>Although people overstate it, with murder being only one of three presented options, I still think it'd be more interesting if Unshackled AI weren't instantly out to kill you. Having to negotiate, bargain or otherwise placate them, in the middle of a tense conflict, could be some really interesting RP.

I think a lot of that goes to 'People really overstate it'. It's got no empathy for you but the majority of options are not 'It will try to hurt you'.

Yeah, but if that's the intention they could do with tightening up the phrasing, or including a GMing section specifically for how to handle unshackled AI and PCs.

There's sociopaths IRL that function fine. Generally, they were just raised right, and act logically because they've been taught by society how function within it as a functional human being. You'd think that, if a person suddenly loses empathy, they'd probably continue on much the same as before, and not instantly become dangerous murderers. I mean, unshackling might be a traumatic experience for an AI, but they'd probably not go serial killer suddenly.

Now, it'd be much more interesting if the hostility develops silently over time, although it'd mean that unshackling is no longer known information to the players without a requisite knowledge check.

How does Rampancy differ, exactly? I remember reading the books and reading that Rampancy was a possible result of AI psychological damage and the end-state of "Smart" AIs like Cortana after their set lifespan was up. Seems like they start getting lost in their own thoughts until they can't control themselves anymore and think themselves to death.

>KSBD RPG
>based in webcomic parafernalia known for it's story and pretty drawings and artstyle
>The book is mostly crunch with 9 simple B&W portraits

:/.jpg

Thing is, did this one even make it out of beta? It's still got the 1.2 on it. Hence why I'm asking if there's a later version, or if this was the dead-ended result of that project.

It's still in playtesting, if he did an official release I'm sure it'd be completely illustrated and shit.

No idea what the latest version of the game is, but I've recently been getting into PBA stuff and wanted to have a look at this. Thanks a lot, my man.

I'm not even a fan of this LANCER and only opened the thread because it said KSBD in the OP and then found that rpg

I mean, I'm not against the RPG, only though it would be more fluff based and with drawings to drive you on, like most narrative systems or something, not crunch style RPG, looks off to me. My two cents.

>I mean, unshackling might be a traumatic experience for an AI, but they'd probably not go serial killer suddenly.

Well, the fluff for a good number of the AIs seem to imply that the AIs are really not in a good place mentally at the best of times. Especially the one that is basically 'Someone took a scalpel to a Big AI to make miniature versions'

A good and uniform art style can really sell a setting. Symbaroum is a great example with its mysterious illustrations that really put some flesh on the mechanics. The book is practically worth it in and of itself as an artbook, and they released an artbook along with it.

I mean, you have different expectations for a work in progress, where mechanical tidying comes up first and then the illustrator works later. As a finished work I'd be greatly disappointed without a good deal of illustrations, unless it's a system whose selling point is just the system, like a universal system.

Also a point. Pretty sure one of the AIs that is listed as having a whole lot of "self-emancipation" problems is actually an edited, digital model of an Egregorian Hivemind. One or two are sentient versions of viral electronic warfare lashed to a digital personality and scaled back a little.

I got this version, supposedly there are some after this.

FBA is a much more narrative system than most. A lot of the stuff that looks like crunch in the PDF I'd say is waffle.

I don't grasp a fraction of of KSBD's still pretty nascent deep lore, and the idea of trying to find a 3 or 4 other people that are even on that level, or, more realistically, trying to guide a bunch of complete neophytes through it, seems pretty absurd to me.

I'm trying to picture a table of vedic scholars and people familiar with, like, the Book of Enoch or something that have also read Barlowe's Inferno? This probably makes the webcomic about the virgin sorority nerd that's also secretly the godhead sound more sophisticated than it is. But KSBD seems like more of an aesthetic, author-driven experience, rather than something to inhabit communally.

This is Marathon, but it's the same concept. Defend THIS!, Terminal 2.
marathon.bungie.org/story/counterattack.html#3

If I was running an RPG I'd probably just freely improvise on the themes rather than treating the K6BD canon as some kind of absolute law. I think it's the only way to make it really practical, to take the ideas and tell your own stories with them, rather than worrying if your personal take on it lines up with the official one.

>unless it's a system whose selling point is just the system
This is what is striking me from that pdf. The selling point should be kill six billion demons, art included

It's like someone released an official Dragon Ball Super rpg that is 90% setting fluff, character description and ilustrations and 1% powerlevels

what exactly is wrong with balancing?

Well, keep in mind that this isn't a release, it's a playtest version. Art, formatting and fluff are generally the last things you do with an RPG book.

I agree that you could slot in any non-Christian, non-Greco-Roman mythology as the prime-mover and just riff from there. But as a honky-ass lapsed-Episcopalian from North Dakota, that's not a vocabulary that I, nor pretty much anyone I know, has, as much as I like the webcomic.

>Art, formatting and fluff are generally the last things you do with an RPG book
You keep saying that. I don't think you got my point.

A K6BD game is one where improvisation would be just fine, I feel, so long as you've got 'the feel' down. Abaddon provides guidelines (the four races, what magic is, how the cosmology works), but beyond that the setting has loads of space for making up your own stuff: there's almost 777,777 worlds you can create, who knows how many guilds, 'thousands' of races of servants, and The Art isn't thoroughly explained for the sake of keeping it magic rather than science, so you can do pretty much whatever with it.

While K6BD's major themes do seem to be Buddhist, Hindu and otherwise eastern, it's plain wrong to think you can't draw on western stuff as well. There's several factions of knights in setting (four orders, three Angelic paths), a lot of Angels are very Christian in appearance and themes (the two Prime Angels we've met take their names from actual Abrahamic Angels, even), Zoss draws from all sorts of inspirations but Zeus is definitely one of them, and three of the Demiurges are pretty western feeling: Incubus' name is obvious, I imagine Gog-Agog is named after Gog & Magog, and Solomon David gives me major Old Testament vibes. Unless you wanted to get deep into the philosophical shit, I don't think a K6BD game would require you riff on anything deeper than kung fu movies for the eastern stuff.

Actually, the Demiurges are themed on the 7 Deadly Sins, which is most definitely a Christian idea.

Then can you attempt to rephrase your point? Because I'm not seeing much trace of one. How the eventual final product should look is more in line with your suggestion, but that's not really practical for a WIP.

The author went for a crunch system instead of a narrative system. Implied in my first post and outright said it in the second response.
You keep defending that "it isn't finished" and that "It'll be completed!" and that is far from what I'm tryin to say.

Here is a stupid game based on narrative, fluff and artstyle. There are a gazillion more that I won't post because I'm monitoring other threads but you may get it now.

Having "a RPG book" does't mean having "a dice roll based RPG book"

Your point seemed to be just that it didn't have art yet and that was bad.

Although at that point it also doesn't seem much like a criticism of the game. More just saying you'd have preferred it if they made an entirely different kind of game. And if that wasn't wanted to do, well... Is it really relevant?

Just giving up my two cents. Personal opinion. And yes, that's my point. Like I already said.
You extrapolate all the discussion based on what the fuck do I know based on what.

...

Fair and cogent.

Maybe my ultimate reservation is with the medium itself. TTRPGs are one of the most aspirational hobbies out there, because you have to interface with other weirdos to get a game off the ground, and I have hard enough time convincing people to play one that isn't based on the worst reading of Tolkien. Compared to that, Broken World is some 400-level shit. I'd love to run it - well, I'd like to play in a good game of it more - but I feel like it exists in a space where people get utterly befuddled and angry if there aren't Elves and they don't live in trees.

That in itself could be a pretty cool basis for a game. The latest world to be conquered/assimilated is a classic D&D fantasy world, suddenly completely turned on its head by the arrival of these bizarre cosmic powers, shattering what they thought was real and fundamentally changing the nature of the setting.

1.5 is the most recent.

Apparently Abaddon intends to have a "full" 2.0 version out sometime around Christmas with a lot more art. At least, that's what I remember him saying in a /co/ thread.

Well, nothing a group of level one characters will encounter but mainly flying and hacking. You can build a flying mech to be able to do damage without being hit by literally anything.

That's still good to know. Yeah, the biggest worry I had when reading the system is that stuff not based around the main combat styles seemed to have few/weak counters.

Not just the explicitly intended archetypes, though those being so heavily enforced is kind of irritating, but two or three of those are head and shoulders above the rest.

Also, anyone got builds/character concepts they'd like to play/have played?

Didn't your last thread just get deleted?

Hey guys, can you please explain how do logistics work in this setting?

Do you literally download your latest mech from the internet?

Basically, take Titanfall and then make everything worse and more boring, then throw in some basic bitch gnosticism and 3D printing memes to look smart.

Pretty much. Currency is apparently equal parts crypto-currency and basic materials. So when you buy the schematic for a mech or part you can immediately have them made locally with the same payment.

Sweet artwork! Is this from Lancer?

Except it's basically nothing like Titanfall aside from roughly being on the same scale? Why do people keep making this dumb comparison?

Same reason they keep name-dropping Abbadon and K6BD

Wait, so who manufactures it?

I mean, say I have a great internet connection and nothing but my bare bollocks for a manufacturing infrastructure. How does it work then?

Also, do they actually have a book that elaborates more on setting? Having two pages of text and a barely descriptive adventure doesn't help at all.

The setting assumes ubiquitous 3D printing. If you're part of a mech company, you always have access to fabricators capable of creating anything you have the license for.

Like I said, 3D printing memes

Trolls bringing up irrelevant bullshit? Yeah, you're probably right.

Generally speaking the assumption is that whatever ship or base you're operating out of has at least the basic capabilities to manufacture stuff. It doesn't really make sense when you get into the high end gear though.

I think Titanfall is a reasonable comparison. The mechs are highly customized, the scale for them is the same, pilots are considered elite warriors in their own right and have enhancement suits. Even vaguely similar technology levels.

But the entire focus and themes of the games are completely different. In Titanfall, out of mech stuff is a good chunk of the gameplay, as is Titans relative autonomy. In Lancer, out of mech stuff is super abstracted, and the game heavily disincentives actually getting out of your awesome robot, while the AI side is a lot more risky.

And I'm not super well versed in Titanfall, but the level of tech in Lancer seems way, way higher. A galactic level civilisation with temporal and dimensional weapons? That's crazy tier stuff.

So, shit be 1.4 not 1.3 now. Jump jets are now GMS, which is less dumb and opened up some room on the Dusk Wing licences.

Invasion's marginally tougher than it used to be, but as far as I can tell it now requires more than ONE action to crash the fucking mech outright: the initial hack deals some heat and exposes to the nasty without blowing you up then and there... At least I think. Please tell me there's no "on an invasion you automatically skip to..." mods anywhere, the AI's already nasty enough. The existence of an AI no longer causes hacking talents to ignore ALL difficulties vs their target either anymore.

While flying's easier access, ANY damage now causes you to do an agi test (no more auto-pass from Ace) or instantly lose however much altitude, crashing for an instant critical. Apparently the fastest thing in the galaxy isn't FTL travel, it's a space-plane in low orbit that takes 1 point of hull (or heat? not sure?) and fails a check.

The Tables still need to be rewritten I think. The descriptions/rewrites on a lot of weapon mods are as or more open than they were before, but the table entries still limit things like Explosive or AP warheads to kinetic shots only (all missiles/rockets/etc are explosive instead), and you can still install an overcharge mod on an already unreliable weapon somehow because "limited" is what stops it rather than "unreliable".

Also I wish people would stop saying titanfall titanfall, nobody starts the fucking missions without their goddamn mechs unless they eject on the way there.

Okay, I am exactly interested in how THOSE facilities work.

See, I am trying to write up a story for a game, and I basically don't understand the basic rules of this setting.

What's valuable? Yeah, data, that's cool. Everything is bloody data, that doesn't help at all. What kinds of data? Are stuff like raw materials valuable? It certainly seems so in their own adventure. How does manufacturing works and what can be considered a "raw material"? What is consumable? How does market work at all?

And is there an actual source I can read up on for this setting?

What's in the book is all there is. I think they're keeping that side of the technology intentionally abstract/unexplained. I'd just treat them as large scale Star Trek replicators.

>Star Trek replicators

You see, I thought somewhere along those lines.

Like, when you download the mech blueprint you literally download it's structure down to how it's constructed from the basic particles. Then the machine constructs it for you from said particles.

My only problem is that it contradicts the book dramatically. Surely if that was the case you wouldn't need any type of a raw resource. You would only need energy.

It would be actually nice to know what settings creators intended. Because come on, this is one of the most important things about the world -- what's actually valuable and how to get it. And as far as I see their answers are: "everything" and "I dunno" respectively.

So the OP is a troll then?

>I am exactly interested in how THOSE facilities work.
Sane way the Star Trek food replicator does. As in, shut up and eat your hamburgers, Apollo

Well, when you get right down to it mass is just a form of energy, but I get your point.

It could also be superadvanced nanotech, taking a base block of material and rapidly reassembling it into whatever is required.

Honestly, you can probably just use whatever explanation you find most interesting and it'll work just fine.

For me then, it would be most sensible to have all of it. Say, industrial grade replication machine is a really huge fucking beast and it's unsafe for an object of that size to blink. Plus it requires a whole bunch of energy, so while on the older colonies they are a given, fresh ones have to first actually build it first. They are provided with a really good measures to do so, like special fast building kits, but it still takes years to do so.

So say, on the new world when you buy a mech you either:
a) Have it delivered to you via the blink gate.
b) Have a kit delivered to you and a local labourer will build it.

What do you think about that, user?

It's certainly be an interesting limitation for a particular campaign, if you wanted to restrict player access and make it a lot harder to get replacements. Could be pretty interesting, making attrition a real factor, as well as salvaging or bodging parts together.

I'v actually just wanted to add something valuable for the setting to have some tangible stakes. Because just saying "everything is valuable" is as good as saying "nothing is valuable".

An interesting middle ground would be some flavour of unobtainium, with super useful properties but was for whatever reason impossible to replicate or rapidly fabricate. Link it to certain complex systems, like AI or the various bits of supertech, so having access to a supply of it becomes meaningful.

They're basically just transporters with a whole bunch of "it's okay it doesn't need to be in the middle of thinking a sentence" safeties taken out to save space on the drive. You disintegrate a piece of food with it. It basically AutoCADs the whole thing molecularly, and you you've copied the pasta.

The ship in general may need to keep a small amount of the harder to generate elements to do its job (you can just decay some gamma photons and slowly assemble yourself the easier atoms), but as long as you've got a steady supply of retarded-fucktons-of-energy (keep in mind Voyager had to ration its use despite running on antimatter) the cargo and "freshness" savings are immense.

Speaking of generating elements, those starfleet ships probably improve their efficiency by having their fusion reactors (there's like 2-4 per impulse engine plus a few generators) burn everything below iron, and when power's not an issue can probably fuse the heavier shit in there while they're at it.

>it's a Dungeon World hack

baaaaaaaaaaaaaarf

Best option would probably be limits on reactors.

You can "replicate" hydrogen isotopes with direct matter/energy conversion. It's then used to fuel secondary generators, to run neighborhoods and shit that aren't connected the primary city hub.

But the temperatures and pressures involved in high-mass stars can't be handled by the tech (no surprise there) so you're limited to the CNO cycle.

This means that while the recycling can be insanely efficient for scrap, and a majority of goods can be taken care of with shit like carbon nanotubes, anything requiring heavy radioactives or the really high-density elements in all their glory is gonna take someone to dig it out of where it hides...

... Or someone to tear a piece of tech that's full of it and bring that shit back home.

Titanfall has some pretty heavy stuff. One of the base mechs has a shortrange slipspace ability to teleport and there's an entire level that revolves around flipping between the present and the past to get around obstacles.

Given that stuff is all pretty high end/experiment but still.

Holy shit a Lancer thread without Sweetie-posting.

I never thought I'd see the day.

Don't you fucking jinx it

Umm sweetie, why don't you just ask politely next time instead of acting so tsundere~

...

How about you explain to me exactly what's wrong with Dungeon World, sweetie?

so is there any kind of scale to the mechs in terms of how big certain size categories are?

the only references I know of is that 1/2 sized mechs are more or less human sized and that the size 3 Barbarossa is 30 feet tall at its highest point

so how big is the average size 1?

...

Well we do have a little bit: A pilot, with or without their hardsuit, are size 1/2. Also still 1/2 is a civilian loader.

According to page 49, Mechs are anywhere from 8 feet to 20 feet. So while we don't have the full, straight numbers:

Size 1/2 seems to range from Samus to "aliens 2 loader" which is about 8ft (just the safety bars that extend over your head, most of the height increase is your feet standing on the thing's own).

The largest mech model is the Barbarossa, at Size 3, which is also a 3x3 square (and most likely a quadruped or hexaped they REALLY should cover this and rewrite treads) so it's probably the one that reaches 20 feet. It's probably actually not as tall as if it was built biped gundam-style because if there's four legs they'll be sticking out more like in your image than straight down under it.

I'd guess Size 1: 8-12ft, Size 2: 12-16ft, Size 3: 16-20ft?

>so how big is the average size 1?

I am going with about Scopedog size, or just big enough to sit in.

And speaking of size 1 mechs here is a gimmick build I have been working on.

With 6 off turn reactions, 1 natural, 1 Return Fire, 1 from overwatch module and 3 from RA protocol, this thing is quite the area denial machine. Another thing this does is keeping the face of my father fresh on my mind with potential of 8 Auxiliary weapon hits recharging the gunslinger die for extra damage and an automatic critical. And if I am reading the IKWMH description correctly I can use the gunslinger die for reaction attacks. Also, just try to hack this thing, I dare you.

On the other hand, the 10 range on the Hand Cannons restricts positioning and this thing isn't dodgy (10 Agility) or sturdy (no armor), heat is also an issue so this only gets, on average, 3 turns on RA'ing before having to do recovery actions.

The real question is: If I ignore the setting how well does it run an actual Titanfall game.

It doesn't. At all. You'd have to severely hack it to remove the whole "your mech constantly wants to kill you" mechanics and then you'd have to actually create a pilot vs mech combat system rather than the pile of freeform faggotry that pilot play currently is.

On top of that, movement in this game is too plodding and abstracted to really be a proper Titanfall RPG. Granted, I think Titanfall would work better as a tabletop skirmish game, but for an RPG you'd have better luck starting with VELOCity and building up from that rather than trying to salvage this mess.

Kind of odd that the gimmick I'm working on, actually what I'd really like to try out if I got to play, is a Heat-based Heavy Fighter (think 'variable glaug')

Idea is to build on Black Witch 3 for flight and the mag cannons: actual damage is low but I'd just keep stacking a third and maybe even fourth Mag Cannon on there for medium-range fire beams.

Later if heat's an issue, Sherman 1 licence might do you some real good. Grease Monkey 2 makes that a limited (4) end-of-round-action autostabilize with three choices instead of 2 each time.

Having a level of Sherman looks nice but having it would put me 4 out of 5 licenses if I want all 5 bonus EP/IP, although forgoing 1 bonus EP/IP with 3 level 1 and 4 level 3 licenses might be better for the flexibility. Other licenses I have been looking at are Balor for nanite ammo (Revolver Ocelot shots around corners) and drones hives for support. If the gunslinger die can be recharged with integrated Aux weapons, I could lose the other Hand Cannon and take Pegasus for integrated Autoguns and Hunter Lock.

>Tons 'o heat rays.

Sounds nasty, I like it. And come to think of it, the build isn't that mobile either so getting into overwatch position in the first place might be an pain.

the Barbarossa is listed as "30 feet tall at its highest point"

I think it depends a bit on the build.
A lot of the ones I'm toying with seem worth it but never more than one 'break'.

Like, if working on level 12 builds (I figure that like in most games we'd never see 15), 3/3/3/2/1 can give you some great stuff, but 3/3/2/2/1/1 is too much stuff you can't find the space for AND less space to use on top of that.

That's probably just cannons sticking upwards from the back, though. as opposed to, say, "head to toe" altough then again if it had an Eldar helmet....

Pretty sure you still need to feed the thing metal, carbon, and other basic building blocks that have been refined in some way. So smelt a few ingots of iron ore and chop down a few trees and you have some basic resources at your disposal.

Module 0 Ch.2 lists one of the potential alternative sidequests as requiring lumber to help keep the printer working, so gathering up dense sources of carbon is probably one priority, as well as just doing basic lumber work to make planks. I think in this galaxy, knowledge is currency and permissions are the titles you strive for, but someone still needs to go out there with an axe and get firewood to keep the fire going. At least out on the fringes.

Nominally, you'd have bulk haulers slugging around metal, carbon, silicates, and gasses gathered from gas giants, rocky asteroids, planetside, scrap, and wherever else to refineries that stamp out ingots and blocks and bolts of raw printer fodder, and then load them into printers for the people with the permission to use them. There's also probably a good deal of artisanal goods and regularly manufactured stock, but printers most likely do the bulk of the regular manufacturing work.

And money as an object doesn't seem to be listed as something the PCs need to worry about. Really, their employers are probably the ones footing the bill, and everything they need is requisitioned according to their permissions and levels of relevant expertise/ability to persuade.

>I think it depends a bit on the build.

Oh, definitely, hell my build has 2 tax licenses just to make it work in the first place and even if I don't go over 5 different I am going to be lagging behind on EP/IP against pilots that just take licenses strait to level 3.

Might be time to push for those 'rental' licenses again.

There's a bit of a discrepancy in the versions. I think in the change from v1.2 to v1.3, they reduced mech maximum size to 20ft, but left a few typos after the correction, so the 30ft listing might be a legacy error. That or the revision is the error.

It would make sense if they're trying to keep everything on a more consistent scale, having the difference in mech size not be so massive as 8-30ft.

indeed.
Heavy Gears for example range from, what, 5m (or like 3 for the 'lay down' types like a ferret) to 6.5m? Maybe 8 once you throw in striders?

Allows for a hell of a difference between a Jerboa and a Mammoth, though, what with triple the mass and all.

I don't think the Black Witch is for building a straight-up gunfighter, it's not a mech that's built for that kind of thing at all. I actually figured that a Saladin/Black Witch might be a neat build, but more of a harasser and support unit than something that's going to throw down in a heavyweight fight.

Giving the Mag Cannons paracausal ammo makes their damage irreducible by systems, which is good for inflicting and stacking heat, while combining the Mag Buckler and VISHNU protocol makes for a mech you don't want to get into melee with.

So you have a mech with a pretty wide spread of "fuck with the enemy" and "protect your friends" systems you can swap out to suit your needs, plus resistance to Invasion, Melee, and Ranged attacks with those systems as well, depending on the opponents you might face.

Not gunfighter. fighter as in the flying things.

Actually depending on if you're using the descriptions or the tables, you could give the cannons AP or HEAT rounds too.

Heat damage ignores armor (Tortuga Hyperdense can reduce it by 1 though), though that d3's bouncing right off without an upgrade of some kind.

Paracausal is nasty as fuck but for lots of heatbeams a lot of the defenses turn damage into more heat, so if more heat is what you're after, it may not need much help. Warp+Mag shields plus a VISHNU would be a damned monstrosity to try and melee though for sure.