This is the World Axis cosmology. Convince me why the Great Wheel is supposedly so much better

The elemental planes were the best part back in Basic.
Thought frankly, I would rather riff Killsixbilliondemons than use any of the stuff in this thread.

>Arcadia
>Elysium
>comparable to generic fantasy crap like "feywild"

Go read some Homer and Plato.

It's all pretty fuckin' generic by modern fantasy standards

>Solidified fire
I still don't know what this means.

The classics are ALWAYS acceptable to reference.

It's a brick of pure hot.

What does it look like?

Probably orange, red, yellow, maybe some white or blue.

What are its physical properties?

...

solid

Elemental Planes existed only to kill you, Outer Planes tended to just get bland quick once you got over the initial novelty value of, say, giant metal cubes bashing into each other all the time.

To say nothing of the ones that were d ull as ditchwater to begin with. Like, what's it called, the Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral fringe plane? The plane of ultimate goodly-leaning conformity, which is basically the fantasy equivalent of 50s Suburbia stretching on into infinity? Sure it fills a blank spot on the proverbial map, but just what the hell are you supposed to *do* with it?

You want to know why I like the Elemental Chaos over the Elemental Planes? Beyond the fact that the Chaos is infinitely more playable and generates far more interesting terrain, plot hooks and adventure seeds than the Elemental Wheel, I can sum it up simply:

This fucker right here. Mual-tar, the Thunder Serpent, a guy so powerful that Pelor, Moradin and Bahamut combined barely managed to take him down. I couldn't have a guy like this anywhere in the Elemental Wheel.

Because you're an idiot.

Let me explain.

The 'Great Wheel' was never a wheel. It was arranged as a diagram to be a wheel because that was the easiest way to fit all the information in an aesthetically pleasing and yet entirely complete manner. You had naturally occuring pathways from the neutral planes to the central plane of neutrality, makign them effective 'spokes' for the wheel. Then you arranged the rest in a shifting order away from neutrals towards other alignments.

But that's not how they actually exist. Nor are they 'layered' except in very specific instances (Tartarus, Carceri, Hell). In all reality, they were different levels of reality, different vibrations that you had to attune to from another point to reach. Your physicality could transform from one plane to another by reaching a higher or lower harmonic vibration and becoming 'in tune' with the reality of the plane next to you, up or down, or even side to side. Aligning your existence with that of the reality that was the next planar existence.

The world axis cosmology is actually a less correct, more rigid and less useful example of how the planes work. They are desperate and disconnected places, rather than being coexistent in the same locations, and reached by achieving a higher or more base state of existence. Your model implies you can simply walk from one to another, rather than being required to reach different states and levels of existence.

So the Great Wheel is a better example, because YOU are too stupid to understand the concept of planes of existence being levels and types of existences that can exist simultaneously with one another, in the same physical location.

Here's the thing, though: what the fuck does any of that even matter? Who gives a shit what planes actually are when you go back to that level of artsy-fartsy bullshit?

What matters is what the planes actually do. And, for the most part, the planes of the Great Wheel exist to take up space. That's it.

tl;dr: The great Wheel is better because you and idiots like you who made 2.0 D&D don't know the difference between a diagram and a cosmology.

...

Again, you miss the point.

the planes exist to represent differing levels of atonement with the great (and very much extant) cosmological forces in AD&D - Good, Evil, Order, Chaos, and Neutrality. Every iteration after that is completely misunderstood bullshit. Back when AD&D was made, people understood the concept of moving between planes of existence by reaching higher and lower states of mind. You didn't NEED Plane Shift to move from Limbo to the plane of Concordant opposition - you needed to be less chaotic, more calm and centered, and inured to the effects of change around you. Likewise to move from Abbadon to Carceri, you needed more self control, more hate, more pain, more base emotions in a controlled and organized manner. You needed to be what the plan represented, not cast some silly little spell.

Those places had puposes even then - they represented aspects of the universe that the gods took part of. Even the deities were aligned with Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos - trhey didn't run that shit, they SERVED it.

But because people are simpleminded nowadays, they can't grasp the concept of states of mind influencing the reality that your character exists in, even as they make varied new classes to try and take advantage of that very concept with no real reason to do so - in MOST cases.

PF Occult Adventures started getting the hang of it again. Of course, Amber Diceless and Legends of the Wulin never lost it.

I really feel like this was a result of simply making TOO MANY planes. If they'd cut out 30+% of them, they could've had the design space to make them all interesting. As it was, there just weren't enough pages or enough staff dedicated to them to be much more than, well, "oh it's a prison" or "oh animal people live here."

The Great Wheel was terrible due to it's "lol infinate planes of fire/water/earth/air/ash/shit/piss/boogers" as well as there not only being realms for the 9 alignments but also realms for varying scales of alignment (Lawful Good but also lean somewhat Neutral Good? Go to Bytopia. Chaotic Evil but lean somewhat Chaotic Neutral? Go to Pandemonium) as well as the Positive and Negative energy realmsa and shadow plane.

The World Axis at least makes some sense: Roiling Elemental Chaos of the Primordials (and the Abyss); The Astral Sea, realm of all of the Gods and their servants (including the evil ones) except the Raven Queen; The Feywild took aspects of various planes and layered on the fey over it; Shadowfell is the literal land of the dead and home of the Goddess of Death, the Raven Queen; Sigil sitting at a crossroads of everything and the Mortal World smack dab in the middle of the shitfest.

One was built because they needed reasons for where magic came from and what happened to ones soul when they died (among other things) while the other was built with adventure in mind, fuck the alignment realms and planes of infinite X.

Another thing about the Great Wheel was that it made the developers have to come up with ridiculous monsters to fill the niches in each and every plane. Monsters of Arcadia, Ysgard, Gehenna, plane of fire, plane of ooze, etc. One developer (can't remember who) said that every time they made a new area they suddenly realized they needed to come up with a mini beastiary just to cope with it. The World Axis though let them focus on only the badass monsters that we all know and love and let them jettison a huge chunk of the monster listing that no one ever touched anyway. Seriously, do you remember what monsters inhabit Acheron? How about Carceri? How about the Place of Lightning?

>my generic fantasy is better than your generic fantasy because it refers to older stuff
I mean, I'm not dissing the classics but just because you use a bunch of Greek words for your shit doesn't make you a latter day Homer.

The phrase is "dull as dishwater."

I'd argue a halfway point is better. Have the "local" planes--or the equivalent of the Inner Planes, looking at the Great Wheel--be fairly well-documented and understood. And then have all the different philosophers, natural scientists, and mythologies extrapolate that stuff differently when they try to guess at the gods.

Think about it in terms of ancient astronomy. Yeah, we got the fact that the Moon orbits the Earth. But, because of that, we thought the Sun did, too.

I generally prefer to take things from an angle of using the Great Wheel as a base, then adding in elements from the World Axis, somewhat like 5e, but not entirely.

My usual configuration is something like this:

• The Region of Dreams, also known as the Veil of Sleep or the Phlogiston: This is a new plane that exists between the crystal spheres of the Prime Material Plane, which are in turn sandwiched between the Ethereal Plane and the Astral Plane. Whenever a sentient or sapient creature sleeps and dreams (in my cosmology, all sapient creatures require at least two hours of sleep each day, both of which are dreaming sleep), their mind/soul transfers to this plane and creates a dreamscape out of the protomatter drifting from the Ethereal Plane. Within that dreamscape, the creature's memories copy themselves, crystallize into memory cores, float into the Astral Plane, and gradually ferment into ectoplasm, which subsequently forms the Outer Planes.
The Outer Planes are made of ectoplasm, which is fermented from two primary sources: the memory cores that drift up from dreams, and the memory cores of the dead as they travel through conduits in the Astral Plane, onwards to their afterlives.

• The Ethereal Plane: The Deep Ethereal is also known as the Elemental Chaos, and is much like the 4e plane of the same name.

• The Inner Planes in General: The Para-Elemental Planes and the Quasi-Elemental Planes no longer exist as true planes. They exist as border regions of the six Inner Planes; the Fire/Positive border, for example, is the Border of Radiance. Just like in 1e, the Inner Planes are reflections of the crystal spheres of the Prime Material Plane. Any given crystal sphere corresponds to a section in each of the Inner Planes.

• The Negative Energy Plane: This is also known as the Plane of Shadow or the Shadowfell, and shares many traits with those planes. Like any other Inner Plane, elemental pockets are in abundance here. It is inhabited not only by negative energy elementals (also known as "entropic" elementals or "nightshades"), but also by many other undead, many of which rally under the banner of the Union of Eclipses. Atropus dwells here as well. For mysterious reasons, this is the one plane that connects to other multiverses, and so alien creatures from other cosmologies and from the many Far Realms wind up here as well.

• The Positive Energy Plane: This is also known as the Plane of Faerie or the Feywild, and shares many traits with those planes. Like any other Inner Plane, elemental pockets are in abundance here. It is is inhabited not only by positive energy elementals (also known as "vivacious" elementals or "spiritovores"), but also by the multiverse's largest concentration of fey. Ragnorra lives here too. This plane is home to the soul fonts which provide the souls for all newborn sentient and sapient creatures in the multiverse. A mix of non-fey positive elementals and fey positive elementals inhabit the soul fonts. The two greatest and most influential soul fonts are the Bastion of Unborn Souls and the Garden of Unborn Immortals.

Why do I handle it this way, compared to using the World Axis as a basis?

The main reason is that 4e's cosmology downplays one of my top three favorite aspects of the Great Wheel: Saṃsāra.

One of my favorite aspects of the Great Wheel/Planescape is the idea that when people die, they reincarnate as petitioners in an appropriate Outer Plane, with much of their personality intact but very little of their memories. Many petitioners go on to evolve into various types of outsiders, like archons in Mount Celestia, baatezu in the Nine Hells, and tanar'ri in the Abyss.

I like the idea of a mortal finding new life as a celestial or a fiend and evolving through myriad dazzling forms. It is possible that they might become curious about their old lives and go to lengths to investigate what they were previously, just for the sake of closure. It is also possible that they might join one of the factions that study reincarnation in-depth, such as the Believers of the Source and the Dustmen, and possibly seek nirvana/moksha/kaivalya and ascension towards the Source/True Death.

I love the idea that, given the right RPG system, someone could actually play one of these reincarnated souls and explore many a roleplaying opportunity based on such a thing.

While Planescape: Torment did not actually address the standard petitioner reincarnation cycle, it did address reincarnation in a different yet equally interesting way, and that was fascinating too.

The World Axis has some of this with the exalted and the outsiders in the Astral Sea, the deva race, and the Keeper of the Everflow epic destiny, yet it is not quite such a central facet of the setting. After all, if most people wound up as exalted and outsiders in the World Axis, then the Shadowfell would lose much of its point.

Page 48 of the 4e Manual of the Planes stipulates that "[the Shadowfell] is the domain of the dead, the final stage of the soul’s journey before moving onto the unknown."

Page 34 of the Plane Above states, "Only a few of the mortals who are fervent worshipers of their deity become exalted. Many other mortal souls spiral out of the Shadowfell and past the dominions of the gods into unknown fates or are born again in new bodies with no memory of their previous incarnation. Other mortal souls might remain in the world among the primal spirits as ancestor spirits or guardians."
A soul definitely does not travel to the Shadowfell only to become an exalted or an outsider in the Astral Sea, oh, no. Nobody but the Raven Queen knows where that soul goes, and maybe not even her.

Out of personal preference, what I am looking for is a setting wherein, in 4e terms, the vast majority of souls go on to become exalted in the Astral Sea's various dominions. That is a significant departure from 4e's cosmology, however, at which point I would prefer to use another cosmology as a basis for my setting needs.

The secondary reason why I handle things this way is because, out of personal preference, I run games mainly set in the Outer Planes. I need all the diversity and nitty-gritty subcategorization I can get. The seventeen Outer Planes each have their own layers, individual species, signature "dominant species" (e.g. archons in Mount Celestia and guardinals in Elysium), and city-state-like divine realms. The Outer Planes are effectively grand empires and nations unto themselves, each with their own subdivisions and independent polities.

I could, in theory, run something similar in the Plane Above: The Astral Sea, but it would not quite be the same. This is because the Astral Sea is Points-of-Light-esque: astral dominions are effectively city-states with a tiny few exceptions (e.g. Baator). I would prefer to have more areas clustered together into thematic "nations" with shared cultures and societies.

To me, the Wheel's Outer Planes are like seventeen star systems in a space opera setting, each with many inhabited planets that comprise their own self-sustaining society with thematic links to each other. In contrast, the World Axis's astral dominions are more like a space opera setting where there are no star systems and every planet is a "standalone world" with a cluster of asteroids around it, which is not quite what I am looking for.

I like it just cause.

As an example of what I mean, consider that in 2e's Great Wheel, Arborea is home to most of the Greek pantheon, most of the elven pantheon, many other gods (e.g. Nephthys and Sune), all the eladrin under the Court of Stars, and the headquarters of the Society of Sensation. It is one of the three usual home bases of the Seelie pantheon of the fairies.

Arborea has three layers each with different topographical themes, the second layer is the endpoint of the Oceanus, the third layer is a graveyard of titanic gods who held the secrets of the True Words/Language Primeval. It is a plane of freedom and compassion, but it is also a plane of incredibly intense emotions both positive and negative, so its locals often get into trouble because of heart-throbbing love or uncontrolled indignation.

That is just *one* plane, and the politics and plot hooks within it alone stand out immediately to me.

Now, I could recreate that in the World Axis's Astral Sea by pulling together various astral dominions together into a makeshift "astral dominion cluster" to recreate Arborea. Better yet, I could section off a region of the Feywild to do the same, particularly given the eladrin similarities. At that point, however, I should save myself the work and use the original Arborea altogether if it is going to be the same thing anyway.

I hope all of this makes sense for why I use the Great Wheel as a basis and add in World Axis elements, rather than the other way around.

Frankly, unless you're doing some high-level Planescape-type stuff, you really don't need to bother picking one over the other. Players don't need to know, you don't need to know. Maybe a few jaunts out to Elemental Land, but, even then, it can be left unclear as to whether they're going to a Plane or just a particular part of the Chaos.

...

Cosmology should be tailored to your campaign world. I personally prefer the world axis because it cuts the bloat. More is not always better.

jesus christ

Surprise, a turboautist likes the Great Wheel.

Also I prefer planar travel to be remarkable and hard, but can be done by ultimately mundane means.

>Back when AD&D was made, people understood the concept of moving between planes of existence by reaching higher and lower states of mind. You didn't NEED Plane Shift to move from Limbo to the plane of Concordant opposition - you needed to be less chaotic, more calm and centered, and inured to the effects of change around you. Likewise to move from Abbadon to Carceri, you needed more self control, more hate, more pain, more base emotions in a controlled and organized manner. You needed to be what the plan represented, not cast some silly little spell.
This is bullshit. Nowhere in the PHB, UA, DMG, or Manual of the Planes does it say anything about that.

You do realize that "planes of existence" are a made-up concept, right? There is no more or less correct way of portraying them.

Also, Asral Sea and Elemental Chaos aren't actually above or below, and neither you can simply walk or fly into Feywild or Shadow-bo-badow (yeah, it's a bad name), unless you stumble upon a crossing

That's a strawman. I never claimed it makes the fantasy itself better, only the names. Refrench to classics > wordword.

>using premade settings
>not writing a new cosmology for every campaign

Lots of shit DMs in here, eh?

I just wanted to say that I felt that this was a coherent and well-reasoned reply, even though I am not knowledgeable about the 2hus.