Pathfinder General /pfg/

>all that investment
>plus the fact that wisdom/intelligence will always be better than charisma, and it makes you more SAD which is good

>all that investment
>maybe one thing, possibly two if you go for Orator

it's less investmant than Cha needs to be relevant

Charisma is the most easily replaced stat, both mechanically and in the narrative. It's absolute trash.

The only place Charisma has is in meme Oracle or Gestalt builds.

>Clever Wordplay
>Student of Philosophy
Assumes the campaign uses traits

>Cunning Liar
Not on the SRD

>Orator
Requires spending two feats, including a useless prereq

>Conversion inquisition
Requires a specific class

So, what was your point?

>a kitsune joins your party
>they start doing this any time they enter combat
youtube.com/watch?v=JKHZ201aLX0

>Assumes the campaign uses traits
Oh shit are you retarded?

Cunning Liar is here.
archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cunning Liar

Orator is REALLY GOOD! Skill Focus applies to it, and you're basically saving 3 skill points a level.

>Conversion inquisition
It's the best inquisition there is.

>Assumes the campaign uses traits
I... there are campaigns that don't use Traits? Why?

It's an optional rule and the campaign I'm playing in doesn't use it. How am I retarded for not assuming that every campaign does?

It's an "optional" rule in the same way that "The players should enjoy the game" is an optional rule.

All rules are optional.

You know every class past core is also optional, right?

Doesn't mean they're not ubiquitous.

For a TWF Rogue, what's the most flavorful or fun light weapon?

Not only is it the worst stat, classes that use it are much worse than similar classes that don't.

Sorcerer is worse than Wizard
Oracle is worse than Cleric
Bard is worse than Investigator (Questioner)

Daggers for the knifemaster archetype and you can now lick your blades. Kukri if you want to look more badass, machete to become Mexican and clubs to become a whirling ball of broken noses and not much else.

fist

So, gunslingers. I rather like them even if they are pretty bad compared to some.

Few questions:

Utility Shot (Ex): At 3rd level, if the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can perform all of the following utility shots. Each utility shot can be applied to any single attack with a firearm, but the gunslinger must declare the utility shot she is using before firing the shot.

Blast Lock: The gunslinger makes an attack roll against a lock within the first range increment of her firearm. A Diminutive lock usually has AC 7, and larger locks have a lower AC. The lock gains a bonus to its AC against this attack based on its quality. A simple lock has a +10 bonus to AC, an average lock has a +15 bonus to AC, a good lock has a +20 bonus to AC, and a superior lock has a +30 bonus to AC. Arcane lock grants a +10 bonus to the AC of a lock against this attack. On a hit, the lock is destroyed, and the object can be opened as if it were unlocked. On a miss, the lock is destroyed, but the object is jammed and still considered locked. It can still be unlocked by successfully performing this deed, by using the Disable Device skill, or with the break DC, though the DC for either break or Disable Device or the AC increases by 10. A key, combination, or similar mechanical method of unlocking the lock no longer works, though knock can still be employed to bypass the lock, and the creator of an arcane lock can still bypass the wards of that spell.

So...does that mean outside of combat, the gunslinger can pretty much blast away any lock, no matter whether it is magical or not? It's an attack. Eventually, he'll hit it and destroy it. So, no matter what kind of a lock what so ever. How intricate it is, he just destroys it? Seems situationally pretty good.

Also, kind of crappy that basically from level 8 to level 11 he gets nothing new except a few upgrades to existing skills.

Finally,I found a few named guns that I rather like.Any good list of all the guns that you can obtain?

>Really shitty gunslingers are used to infinitely boost the difficulty of breaking into an ancient evil's tomb

>The group's progress is slowed in snowy areas

>Orator is REALLY GOOD! Skill Focus applies to it, and you're basically saving 3 skill points a level.
Maybe so but not everyone will have the feats to spare for it. Especially at low levels, and it's something you'd want ASAP.

>It's the best inquisition there is.
Okay but what if I don't want to play an inquisitor?

>I... there are campaigns that don't use Traits? Why?
In the campaign I'm playing now, the GM is so new that I'm not sure he's even aware they're a thing. In the last game I ran I didn't have them, because most of the players were new to the game and I didn't want to force them to do any more dumpster diving than the amount they needed just to make a character.

>I... there are campaigns that don't use Traits? Why?
Shit like making charisma even more useless seems like a good reason. Really, what compelling reason is there to use traits unless you're running an adventure path and want to use campaign-specific traits?

It's the Fluffy Tails GM, of course kitsune furries are going to app.

Orator is really good with half-elves since they typically get Skill Focus at first level.

Wakizashi let you get your weeb on (you know you want to) and are mechanically the best choice.

>Dumpster Diving
Nigga it's called a guide. It's 2017.

What are the penalties for Syphilis?

When will someone take the original Fluffy Tails 1&2 and revive it for real (no bamboozle)?

My Cha/Dex fighters do pretty well. Scaled Fist Unchained Monk/Pearl Seeker Paladin is fun at level 2, great around levels 4-7, and can do some nasty shit around 10.

What about paladins and anti-paladins?

... But why Pearl Seeker?

They don't really have an equivalent. I guess ranger? So yeah, Paladins/Anti-Paladins are better than Rangers.

Bloodragers are better than barbarians too.

When will someone make a gestalt voyager|voyageur?

Or an initiating voyageur archetype?

d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/voyageur/

Is urine a common component of alchemical compounds?

For the urea maybe, but you don't see people harvesting cow piss for a quick sale when the travelling alchemist comes around

>Dare_you_enter_my_magical_realm.jpg

Yes, but there's no need for urine banks. It's cheap enough.

Well, cow urine is plentiful, just check nearest barn.
But if you need like unicorn stuff. Or even the dragon kind...

Traits would be good if people used them as anything but another aspect of the character to be minmaxed.

>muh Stormwind fallacy.

if you want to play magus, for one

"Greetings. I am Wizardus von Transmutos. I spent my entire life just studying this here magical tome and never even stepped inside an university where they teach philosophy nor have I read a book about philosophy because I learned everything from the least philosophical man alive in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, far away from civilization. I am a Student of Philosophy."

Spot the problem, good user.

>what is refluffing

>person takes a trait and makes no effort to justify the ability whatsoever
>this is a problem with the trait

>Spot the problem, good user.
The problem is that apparently you don't know shit about wizard training, my friend.

user, while I get what you're trying to say, no.

The fluff and story of your character is the meat of it. It's the tasty bits that make up most of it.

The mechanics are the bones and other that enable it to move and interact with the world.

They work together to make a character.

No fluff, and you've a pile of bones that just look unnerving to everyone. It's functional, but it's ugly, and nobody wants to see it.

No bones, and you just have a pile of meat, sitting on the floor. It looks like it could have been something good, but it's got nothing holding it up. It's like a really bad taxidermy, except it's not amusing, it's just sad.

You're that autistic kid that was never good at social things, and it made your life hell. So you showed the local inn-keeper that you could bus tables or do some other minor job, and you observed people, in that cold, calculating way that makes people who knew about it think you were probably going to kill someone. You learned through observation, repetition, and experimentation, rather than through natural charm.

Wizard training could involve philisophical thought/learning.

Or you know picking up a book or two on Philosophy and argumentation?

Or just fucking refluffing.
>Charisma would STILL be fucking useless as shit if that trait didn't exist. And banning it/getting rid of it would just encourage more murderhobos.

Even a trait selected purely for its mechanical benefits can inform characterization, user. That's the whole point of traits.

>No fluff, and you've a pile of bones that just look unnerving to everyone. It's functional, but it's ugly, and nobody wants to see it.
What the fuck has "no fluff". I can't really think of a single piece of material that has absolutely no context for how it enables something. Like at all.

user, I'm referring to no fluff as the sort of character that's just pure mechanics and a build, rather than something that's intended as an in-world concept or character with personality and all that stuff.

Basically, a 2hu "character" versus what you'd normally see from someone who isn't an extremely broken person.

One is a skinless automaton that's incredibly efficient, but terrifying to look at, and ugly enough that nobody wants it around.

The other is just John, the guy down the street.

I guess the boneless thing is what happens when the 2hu abomination starts doing it's thing to people, since he near exclusively focused on combat, and it's the pile of leftovers.

Battle of the 3pp skill monkeys: Forrest's avowed vs. Gareth's malefex.

Which is the mechanically superior class? Which can contribute to both noncombat challenges and combat challenges more effectively?

My gut assessment tells me that the avowed is the clear winner here, because it gains far more at each level (clauses, shapes, pact empowerments, bonus feats, miscellaneous abilities) than a malefex ever will.

While the avowed is a high tier 3, the malefex is a low tier 3, possibly even a high tier 4. The malefex's cheekiest trick is placing a steal talent on a familiar or a psicrystal.

Am I wrong?

Please wait until later. People are having a discussion, and it'd be appreciated to not interrupt it.

Warlords and Zealots are pretty awesome though.

To put it another way:
The meatless character is one that has a +80 to Diplomacy checks, but simply walks in, rolls and declares that he has persuaded the king to his cause.
The boneless character spends 20 minutes in game composing a long winded speech about how a truly noble and wise ruler would side with him and then rolls 1d20-2 for the check.

>I guess the boneless thing is what happens when the 2hu abomination starts doing it's thing to people, since he near exclusively focused on combat

I take the time to pay attention to noncombat utility a fair bit. It is why I praise class design that integrates noncombat utility into a class by default; Paizo's vigilante and Dreamscarred Press's rajah do exactly this.

Even the build in has some noncombat features: Bakeneko for easier navigation, the conversion inquisition for Wisdom-based social skills, and rock-solid Sense Motive paired with spectacles of thought-seeing for peering into surface thoughts.

Nearly every one of my builds has a few good things it can do outside of combat, and almost all of the characters I actually play are skill monkeys in some way.

Why the fuck would a wizard not study philosophy? There's a huge overlap between philosophy and magic.

Because it doesnt fit the narrative user wants to push.

Rate my setting's pantheon and Raise Dead system:

Pantheon:
>Orisin, the Unburdened Light
God of Fire and Law
Did not create the mortal races but gave them fire so they might escape the savage natural world. He values uplifting others and the purifying power of fire. Goblins were a failed attempt that saddens him. They still worship him but as a god of fiery destruction. Does not like aberrations

>Nikta, the Buried Dragoness
Goddess of Magic and Undeath
Nikta used to be a normal, if powerful, dragon. She tricked a mortal into uniting most of the world in her name. When she revealed herself the hero defeated her but the empire was shattered. She then tried to steal the death domain from Aerilith, got literally buried into a mountain for it

>Sen, the God(ess?) of the Deep Wood
Deity of the woods, fey, and darkness. Sen is the primal god of nature. Her servants are both good and evil fey. Surprisingly she has no significant hatred of civilization or technology. Instead, she is the main opposing force of the Elder Mythos, knowing that they are the end of creation

>Maturin, He Who Holds the Stars
God of stars, day and night, and good
Maturin is slow in thought and action but is deliberate and caring. Maturin rarely interferes in mortal affairs. When he does, it is to delay or halt truly catastrophic events. He often uses children or childlike adults as his champions, valuing innocence and good above all else

>Aerilith, Keeper of Spirits
Godess of death, debts, and judgement
When mortals die they are sorted by Aerilith to their respective afterlives. Aerilith's realm is dim and calming, a wasteland of drab fields under a dark blue sky. Aerilith does not have too much of a problem with bringing back the dead but she demands a price. Necromancers must become her servants when they die unless they worship Nikta of course. True resurrection requires other gods to submit part of their power (detailed below)

I tend to make a lot of Wis based characters, usually by accident

I don't know which is mechanically superior, but malefex is practically superior because it has a description that's less than 100 pages long and someone could reasonably be expected to read it.

Kerambit. It is horribly underappreciated

I try going for Int when I make my characters. Skills are nice to have.

Primarily for the Ammonia or Saltpeter

I am still soliciting ideas. What are some good uses for the Zeitgeist advanced talent of the Mind sphere for a character who does *not* intend on simply fomenting mass chaos? Yes, mass chaos can be righteous, such as against armies, but that is not the subject matter here.

spheresofpower.wikidot.com/advanced-talents#toc100
>Zeitgeist (cloud)

>Prerequisites: Mind sphere, Group Charm, Project Thoughts, 10th caster level or higher.

>You may spend an additional 1, 2, or 3 spell points and take 10 minutes to affect large communities of 200 or smaller, 2,000 or smaller, or 5,000 or smaller (respectively) with a single lesser or greater version of a charm. Every individual within this community of 3 or fewer Hit Dice is automatically affected by this charm, while everyone with 4 or more Hit Dice receives a Will save as normal with a +4 bonus. This effect lasts for a number of hours equal to your caster level.

>Note: GMs using the Zeitgeist talent to create an entralled thorpe or all-too-sleepy little village are encouraged to not roll the WIll saves until player characters arrive "on screen", and to recall that many, many NPC citizens will have fewer than 3 Hit Dice and not be permitted a save. Waiting for the PCs to arrive will save prep time and cut down on NPC note mismanagement, even if you do realize that a plot-crucial NPC was actually unaffected and should have been active elsewhere from time to time.

spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mind

Greater Suggestion is limited to basic requests.
Greater Command requires concentration and has limited actions, and the target is aware that you are controlling it.
Greater Enthrall still has you make the opposed Charisma checks individually.
Greater Utterances requires you to stay in range.
Greater Vision changes the appearance of only a single creature, object, sound, or effect.

I suppose that leaves only greater Amnesia and greater Inception? Surely, there are better uses for Zeitgeist?

I think I'm pretty much permanently stuck on Int, between skill autism and the fact that the other two players are glued to Cha-based characters. I almost wonder if I should give up and play a wizard, even though I want to play something with less bookkeeping to bang my head against.

>You learned through observation, repetition, and experimentation, rather than through natural charm.
Literal autist here. Can confirm that this is how at least I learned how to interact with other people in public properly

>but malefex is practically superior because it has a description that's less than 100 pages long and someone could reasonably be expected to read it.
>"has a pact that gives them power" is 100 pages

The only type of character that should be using zeitgeist is a villain that is trying to hide behind brainwashed villagers to fuck with the PCs

Just ignore how much /pfg/ cries about CHA being the worst, which it still is. In your average game environment you will, at worst, have to invest a feat or two to get more out of CHA, but still not become useless no matter how much /pfg/ cries about characters based on stat X will always be shit since, you know, you are not competing with your party.

An Unchained Barbarian's Rage stacks with a Sahuagin's Blood Frenzy. My players get max hit points at every level, so a small group of these should be okay to use against them.

I decided not to go with the Alchemists using Mutagens, but I will still go with the Grenadier idea.

The boss encounter will a Sahuagin Underpriestess who's raiding the city for edible townsfolk. If I screw up the encounter design, or if the battle goes on too long, the Cult of Velsharoon will help them by sending skeletal sea monsters to defend the city.

Along the way, the PCs will have to rescue the townsfolk, earning Influence, Goods, and such from them. I feel pretty good about this now.

Raising the dead:
All clerics of significant power can resurrect someone regardless of alignment and deity but requires them to beseech their god. It is then at the god's whim whether or not to revive the person. To do so they make a deal with Aerilith and sacrifice the smallest portion of their own power, leading to unique effects

>Orision
The person can only be healed by fire damage. Healing magic that targets them simply fails. Heat damage will not work only direct fire damage. Fire otherwise does not effect them

>Nikta
The revived person appears withered and has the pallor of the undead but is still completely alive. They are revived with -4 Cha (minimum 1)

>Sen
The revived person has been touched by the primalworld. They may use Detect Fey 3 times per day but receive a -4 penalty on all charm effects made by fey

>Maturin
Maturin very grants his clerics successful raise dead spells. When he does it is for a very specific purpose. Those raised are under the effect of Geas-Quest ostensibly cast by Maturin

>Aerilith
Aerilith's servants are actually the least likely to convince her because they have little more to offer her. She will infrequently do it for knights of the Order of Graves, who combat Nikta and her servants. Those risen suffer a permanent negative level and the assurance that they will remain in Aerilith's realm when they die

At first level, how high should your saves be?

I'm more avoiding Cha most of the time because other players in my games tend to flock to it first, and Int's extra skills on top of the classes based on it are my jam. I gravitate more to Alchemist and Occultist over something like a Bard or Sorcerer. Hell, right now I'm contemplating a Magus, though an Investigator would probably cover the the party composition holes left by a Bloodrager and Oracle.

Which is funny, because until I heard they picked those classes, I was contemplating an Archaeologist Bard or something for a change of pace.

>thinking charisma = beauty

>Undead are Charisma based
>Looking undead lowers Charisma
>Lowering the stat directly instead of giving a penalty to checks related to it for social skills

555-Come-On-Now

How does one play sportball in Pathfinder?

with another system

Better question- how do you play six-on-six Bloodbowl in Pathfinder, with the PCs as the team?

Charisma is a combination of. An ugly character with high charisma would probably be something of a legendary orator while a socially awkward character described as beautiful could have high charisma simply because of puppy eyes and a beautiful character could also have low charisma simply because they are made and played by /pfg/ players (read: airheads, Hooks from Police Academy if she was actually pretty, autism, insanity or all the above).

Well it is a superficial effect. Maybe just -4 to diplomacy and related checks?

They are not true undead. They're still relying on Con, son. Although I did apply your suggest to the point above

Make everybody a brawler, monk or rogue of varying archetypes and VMCs and monster be monsters, man.

>mfw my "pretty but low-cha" excuse amounts to just a magic disguise
>mfw nobody will probably ever realize, let alone notice, because it's such a standard now

>Charisma is a combination of
I disagree and personally think the only correlation between charisma and attractiveness/beauty is that high Charisma people tend to have personality traits that make them groom better. Charisma is about projecting an image. A hot but Low Charisma character is like that super stereotypical vapid cunt you see in high school shows. Someone everyone wants to sleep with, but not actually interact with.

Okay, so how do we build him? Both SoM and PoW builds are appreciated

And also, how do we make Swordchucks

The thing that bugs me about my DM is that he's fine with refluffing traits except for religion traits because those still require you to worship a specific god. I don't understand why, if you're willing to refluff every other kind of trait, Religion traits would be different. For the majority of characters, your choice of deity is just fluff anyway- unless you get power from them like a cleric, it has no mechanical impact.

For some reason, he thinks I'm a stick in the mud who doesn't approve of refluffing traits. In truth, I'm totally fine with refluffing them almost completely, I just don't do it with my own characters because I feel like I'd be cheesing things.

So what is Variant Multiclassing supposed to be fluff wise? A sort of natural talent?

I'm fine with refluffing religion traits as long as they
>aren't clearly divine in nature. Stuff like that Zon-Kuthon medic feat. Anyone could to that even if they're a hardcore fedora tipper.
>if they are divine in nature, as long as it fits the god. So most of them.

I also waive worship requirements for Divine Fighting Techs.

It depends on what you VMC.

Think of it like Multiclassing, but instead of dedicating your time between two fields/disciplines, you instead dabble a bit in one.

Are these meant to be balances against each other? Because you can't look at Orision's "drawback" and Nikta's, and say they're balanced. Nikta best goddess out of the lot though.

Yeah, that's my logic too. If you had a religion trait that was, say... For worshipers of Calistria and gave you a bonus on some kind of roll when made against someone who has wronged you recently, it seems like something you should be able to get even if you worship certain other gods, particularly evil or vengeful ones, because the flavor still makes sense. It hasn't even been stretched much.