Since Fallen Angels are a thing, what does Veeky Forums think of Redeemed Demons as a concept?

I kinda like the idea, it's more like they're brainwashed

>yaoi hands

The best is morally ambiguous demons and angels
Unless they're henchmen-level demons and angels are both usually far more intelligent than humans, and with such intelligence often comes complicated value systems.
Basically the same shit wearing different masks depending on whether they're feeling le sexy and sinister or self-righteous.

Melek Taus Ftw

>angels so indifferent to human suffering that they are borderline evil
Love this trope.

Faulty.
God only damns. He never forgives.

Not in 40k

Its a very, very old trope.
From the keys of Solomon and actual ancient texts this is already established, its a lot easier to talk with a demon and an angel, an angel will be a far greater danger to you, if they even bother talking with.

Why not use that decaying mentality to build something new?
Unless it becomes the new standard
Dark Knight Returns anyone?

I like proper demons being fallen angels so no but I mean if you want to sure? The idea of a hulking, horned warrior covered in golden plate like some kind of walking tank sounds pretty cool to me, bonus points for an angelic balrog whip.

I just don't think it's needed really, why do you want redeemed demons when you've already got angels to fight them?

Meant to reply to OP, not you. My bad.

>My fedora is TWICE as tall as all of yours! I'm already hating old tropes so hard, I hate new tropes and cycle back to liking old tropes for their retro value.

To be fair isn't that what Nathrezim were before they created Fel Magic and it took them over?

Any magic in WoW lore tends to be corruptive and will repurpose you if you indulge too deeply in it

So wait.

Wouldn't a Redeemed Demon just be an Angel that fell but after that decided he was wrong and got all guilty and is trying to be forgiven?

That doesn't sound THAT bad in such a context.

Mythologically, it's not a fully alien concept. 'Demons' are a pretty broad concept and even in Christian mythology they're not irredeemable. The only real support for the idea of irredeemable demons comes from Aquinas, who made many good arguments and many that were completely circular and Biblically unfounded.

So yeah it makes sense.

Holy shit dude how could you fail at theology this bad?

Why? I'd imagine a demon will corrupt and consume you and an angel will probably just ignore you.

If I remember right, in classic Arabian myth, the only three sapient races God made were humans, angels, and djinn, and only djinn and humans possess free will.

Well TECHNICALLY, they made a choice to go without mr Capital G at moment 0, but yea

Angels possess free will too. There's nothing in the Old or New Testament to support a contrary view.

According to the orthodox church iirc, even demons, including lucifer himself can be redeemed. Though that's not really in the way the edgelords usually do it, so putting em in ttrpg campaigns is a retarded concept

In my books yes it would be.

What I meant by the hulking tank thing was a 'traditional' evil demon that turns like I think OP meant. Like the stereotypical red horned dude covered in golden plate fighting for good, not the angel thing I mentioned.

But I like that idea honestly, not that I'd have the God forgive them, it's be a hopeless infinite struggle to redeem himself while the God just uses him as an example of what happens to traitors.

I might throw this into the myths of some obscure tribe for my players to maybe stumble upon one day. Cheers user.

Eh, adding to this quickly:

Of course, 'angels' are a big concept. A lot of what went into the Islamic idea of angels was borrowed from sources that were not strictly Judeo-Christian.

I'm not entirely sure about the status of angels in Islam. I've never seen a passage that explicitly denies angels free will, but it's clear that the average Muslim has this position.

Building something new is inherently exclusive with the mentality of decay, as decay is characterised and caused by the lack of innovation. And reinventing old stuff is NOT something new. Add, not change

>Redeemed demons
Everyone deserves a chance at redemon themselves

The thing is that, Christianity-wise, what they need for their redemption isn't something most people think is cool. They need humility. The standard "no one can understand my torment" is the opposite of what they need. They don't need to fall in love and be torn by a tempest of emotions, they need to get over themselves and stop seeing themselves as so important.

Exactly. Even though the concept might seem alright, when implemented it is guaranteed to NEVER be redemption through humility, prayer and acceptance of a higher power, instead of impersonally slashing things from behind in dark clothes. Especially given the state of the people who would play redeemed demons

Angels aren't allowed to have free will because then there was a chance Gabriel didn't transmit the word of God exactly to Mohammed, and the Quran MUST be the exact literal word of God.

>as decay is characterised and caused by the lack of innovation

American media's obsession with reboots, reruns and remakes is looking pretty ominous right about now, as is our profound addiction to children's stories (comic books) and bitching more about the color of a character than the content of their character.

Oh, haha, okay. Typical over-zealous idiocy, then.

Did you put enough punctuation in your post there bud?

This is wrong.

I don't know what branch of Abrahamic faith you're implying here but demons are just devils that inhabit hell they are just evil spirits

Actual fallen angels are the like of lucifer, and such. If calling them demons helps you generalize them thats fine but don't think they are the same thing.

I think they're rad, OP.

But I'm tired of all these prissy redeemed Succubi/Erinyes or other pretty things.

No, I want a fucking big scary monster fiend to be redeemed, like in that picture.

Imagine, for example, a Redeemed Balor Paladin who goes around being a total bro and helping people out despite looking like a freak ass ten foot tall monster.

One player is extremely upset that another player is pushing for it. The rest don't care.

Its a little frustrating, because I was looking forward to them using Reverse Demonic Insurgency against a demon lord.

They can be pretty rad

It doesn't work. Thematically, the idea is that Good people can fall. Angels are the embodiment of Good, but they live in a world that's bad: If they're not careful, they can get corrupted.

But demons? Demons are pure evil. There's no coming back from that. You cannot 'backslide' your way out of depravity. It's why a Blackguard cannot 'accidentally' perform a good act and Rise, he's content to wallow in his evil.

I'll add that when most people say 'Redeemed Demons', they actually mean 'I want to fuck a succubus and not feel bad'.

>In real life

How would the succubus's moral stance figure into fucking it and not feeling bad?

You know what he meant, don't tip your fedora needlessly.
There is a difference between a demon and a devil in Christianity at least. Demons are generally understood to be either fallen angels or nephilim, while devils aren't defined as well.

Except the demon wants something from you, hence a bargain, but angels see you as a nuisance just as we see flys. No one goes out of there way to swat a fly, but if it is within your reach it's dead.

An angel wouldn't needlessly kill you though, unless it sensed evil intentions

I'd like the concept more if it wasn't ALWAYS the sex demon who gets to be redeemed.

>There is a difference between a demon and a devil in Christianity at least
I'm going to need a source on that,

It sounds like some people in this thread have a great idea for a Redeemed Pit Fiend / Balor Paladin.

>Good people can become evil
>But evil people can never become good
That's just retarded

In biblical canon, a fallen angel is an angel in time-out until they apologize for saying they don’t love daddy AKA God.

So no. A fallen angel is a demon. They stop being a fallen angel/demon and become an angel when they stop acting like a child throwing a divine tantrum.

According to the Catholic Church canon and elevated fanfiction on par with Shadow Of Morder that is Dante, punishment is eternal because Old Testament God never went away.

To Jews, Muslims, and modern Christians, demons are weak but more malicious spirits and fallen angels are the bosses plotting takeover of our world. So no, there’s no record of them not being assholes.

In most Eastern faiths especially Shinto yeah, they can totally decide to do good if they want and teach humans tricks to live like fishing and telling time.

But for all else, it depends on the setting.

I'm happy Trump won, just because of you Carlos.

He’s a citizen.

He’ll lose hos job when our government goes bankrupt like everyone else, but that’s not really a win.

There was this one Doom/Mass Effect fanfic I read once that had a great selection of redeemed demons, and it made me fall in love with doing the concept right.

I think the key thing with a redeemed demon is for them to break out of a unilateral mindset. They need to see that humans can be more, that the world can be more than a place to exploit and corrupt. It's a matter of revelation, and when it happens the demon is then charged to become worthy of such a world.

the problem of redeemed demons when compared to fallen angels is that the "thing" for fallen angels is that "it's too easy to fall from the path of virtue"

it doesn't require effort to be a fallen angel.
it might even happen by accident or ignorance

for a demon to become good will need a tremendous amount of effort to ignore their nature

unless they inadvertedly do a good thing and become "fallen", regretting it and wanting to go back to the side of the bad guys, but banished from hell forever and missing all the orgy-parties with hookers and bondage

the one time I've seen it done that I liked was a succubus that wanted to become good because she founs out the people she killed died permantly. That they didn't just pop back into existence on their home plane loke she did. The demons have no concept that murdering people is bad because death is only a minor inconvenience for them rather than the end of existence.

where would I find this doom/mass effect crossover.

I’m of the opinion that the best villains are corrupted heroes, and the best heroes are reformed villains.
Vegeta, Piccolo and Tien are objectively the best characters in DBZ for precisely this reason.

I'll allow it if they're called Redeemons.

I think it was called Exitus? It was on spacebattles I remember, and was basically "The citadel council makes first contact with a humanity who worships the Doombringer as a god and have been at war with demonkind for centuries. Shenanigans ensue."

All can be salvaged. You could always make a demon TRYING to redeem himself, but never getting that part quite right, thus being a demon and not an angel.

He fights for the forces of good, laughs with the forces of good, but cannot yet accept that his initial rejection was not justified, that his glories are not all his, etc etc.

He claims that he is fighting fate, and his demonic nature, without understanding that it was not fate but himself which brough him down in the first place.

Like fallen angels, virtually always done superficially with no good storytelling about it.
It's like poorly conceived romance in fiction: for the most part it's just insisting, "this is dramatic and means something," but we all know it's trash and it's just happening because someone thought something sounded or looked nice.

Gold Armored Balor Paladin who calls himself ____ the Redeemon, when?

Sounds like a Yugioh card.

I personally think it’s something we should see more off, wth some designs to boot (fallen angels get the black wings and emo look, redeemed demons should get something too).

As an Athiest who probably wouldn’t worship God if he did exist, what I think’d be cool is seeing Fallen Angels and Redeemed Demons rejecting, or being rejected by both Heaven and Hell. Enough of them get together to go on their own crusades to forge a middle path, with different takes on how to treat themselves, each-other, and the Humans in between, with a golden ending of the Fallen Angels, Redeemed Demons, and Humans fighting together to end the celestial hierarchy.

Uh... Pretty much all Christian literature points to the contrary... Including the Bible and Paradise Lost, so only in certain sects of Judaism is what youre saying relevant

Yeah, there are evil spirits the Old testament refers to with the leader being "Satan"/"Shaitan", which just means "enemy", but those could be fallen angels.

I mean, in Judaism/Kabbalah/actual occultism, you're 100% correct, but the other guy wasn't wrong either. You're just looking at different sources.

I think a lot of confusion here stems from what is meant by "fallen angel"

Generally I tend to think of fallen angels as being the watchers [Grigori] who were sent to watch over humanity and became exiled from heaven because they though god's punishment unfair and taught us medicine, metallurgy, language etc in order to survive outside of Eden. Sure they settled down with human wives and spawned the Nephilim but ultimately their fall from heaven was a result of empathy with man.

The thing is,that's from Enoch and Daniel who never discuss Hell or Demons as such, bad angels and those who rebelled were imprisoned in heaven

>There is a difference between a demon and a devil in Christianity at least.
Eh no. Devil is just a concrete Demon, aka Satan. And its a title, meaning "deceiver".

>nephilim
people in old days had weird fetishes

That's just a Regular Angel again at that point, no?

Can't have a redeemed demon, G-d doesn't make mistakes

As a Christian who loves to dip into Scifi and fantasy for illustrations and parable, I like this idea and have already thought of how it would play out.
A fallen angel named Zeus heads to Greece with his buddies and starts the long con.

As I recall it results in a flood

That's the idea. The world makes everyone worse. It's like how iron rusts and food rots if you leave it out in the open: The opposite doesn't happen.

It's pretty obvious. They want to convert a girl to good through the power of the cock, so she's the perfect waifu. It's the whole thing about wanting to fuck a 'bad girl', but with her not really being *that* bad.

Sort of like how the Monster Girl Encyclopedia has those corrupted heroines who still remain fixated on the hero, while (in truth) a girl who's been corrupted would probably be having orgies with cultists, animals and anything she could get her hands on.

No-one talks about redeeming the Balrog, for instance. Or something like a glaberzu, the one with lobster claws and a dog-head.

I've never though of people wanting to redeem Lucifer as a guilt free bum-chum but I guess all angels are supposed to be trappish by nature so I guess it makes sense

I'm fine with both ideas, but they're something I'd make campaign-worthy goals or finales out of.

Zeus of course survives
Meanwhile, in India, Vishnu, Shiva and Brahman conspire together

>decay of society and culture
>reinventing things
Yeah, hipster shit like this whole "Lucifer" faggotry about some absurd fallen angel is so retarded, man.

>demons and fallen angels
>in real life
American education, everyone

I think they're just fine as a concept, just like fallen angels, as long as they are done in a reasonable manner.
This for example is a good way to go about it, in my opinion.

Isn't that the plot of Hancock?

What is demonhood is just a "go sit in the corner and think of what you did" thing?

I like redeemed demons, more interesting than fallen angels, if only because it's less common. And it's usually harder for the "good guys" to accept the redeemed demon than the other way around.

Dude, you're projecting like a pro. We could show old-timey movies on you.

>No-one talks about redeeming the Balrog, for instance. Or something like a glaberzu, the one with lobster claws and a dog-head.
I think that's the only way this whole thought excercise is interesting

then they haven't achieved redemption, they've merely served their time

That was just a crude analogy. Point being, it could be a temporary state (or at least partly reversible) that has teaching a lesson as its function, not eternal damnation. If the demon learns gets what he did wrong, he is reinstated with whatever changes are appropriate

You know I'm specifically referring to the sexy ones. Literally no-one cares about the really ugly demons. It's always the female demons who get a second chance, not the goat-faced demon that wears a cloak of human skin.

>Redeemed

This is the part where the concept immediately dies. Fallen Angels had a place to fall from, whereas Demons literally started there. Redemption implies an initial failing. It is there nature, therefore there is nothing to redeem.

if one can exist than so can the other, and they are a god excuse to have badass angelic stuff

so Arisen Demon then ye of pedantic nature?

Nathrezim are OG demons. They're not corrupted, they're the corrupters. Their world got eaten by old gods and they fucked off elsewhere in the Nether

>Their world got eaten by old gods and they fucked off elsewhere in the Nether
Nevermind that part, it was only a "conclave of old god worshippers" on some world. Their homeworld got ripped apart a la Draenor by Illidan

that was WAAAAAAAAAY after they became what they were, they and the pit lords were the original demons sargeras fought

So were the Eredar until Blizzard fucked that up and made them into good boys who dindu nuffin until that Sargeras came and CORRUPTED them.

I believe it’s quite common to depict the old gods as being demons. One concept I think doesn’t get enough attention is according the Inferno, all the Old Gods are trapped in hell.

What is better? For good to come naturally? Or to be good by overcoming your darker nature through great effort?