Achilles vs Herakles

Heracles:
>Purebred demigod and son of Zeus.
>Later an Olympian.
>Completed 12, believed to be, impossible tasks.
>Led several successful war campaigns.
>Built two giant pillars at the edge of the Mediterranean as a border.
>Became an Argonaut.
>Held up the goddamn sky.
He wins this one handily.

Yeah, but he was mostly fighting monsters, not a once-in-a-generation untouchable master warrior.

>Untouchable master warrior.
Achilles died by heel.

>monsters, not a once-in-a-generation untouchable master warrior
There’s a difference?

Let's make this more interesting, shall we? Let's add Beowulf and Gilgamesh

Fighting monsters should give him more cred, if anything. He did kill a monster that was unkillable by iron or bronze by breaking its neck.

Not to mention that he sacked Troy way before the Trojan War.

Ye boi.

>Achilles' main strength is that he can't be harmed by mortal weapons. Neither could the Nymean lion.
That's fan fiction you fucking idiot, if you read the Iliad Achilles isn't actually immortal.

Herakles was actually a very tactical man who came up with a lot of plans. His skills with a bow were no joke either. It's no small coincidence that his bow is what brought about Achilles' death either.

He didn't even need to be a good bowman anyway. He dipped his arrows in Hydra venom that killed you in seconds.

To be fair, a degree of his plans were thought up by others.
Though yes, he was such a good bowman that he impressed Apollo enough to lend him his chariot.

Beowulf was impressive, but he died fighting a dragon. The most he's ever dealt with were Grendel and his momma, which pale in comparison to some of the monsters Herk fought. Gilgamesh tag-teamed a natural disaster of a monster (Gugalanna) and best it pretty handily. However, he couldn't conquer death and accepted his mortality, whereas Herk wrestled death and win and later ascended to godhood. Heroes don't get much bigger than Herk unless you look to Hindu legends or some Chinese stuff like Sun Wukong.

he was harmed in his only vulnerable spot

Herakles. He's simply the greater hero of the two.

Again, that boi was a mortal, and died attempting to invade Troy. Heracles conquered Troy by himself for a belt.

>However, he couldn't conquer death
Well, he fell asleep, but later on he got that herb that would have granted him immortality. He lost it because of a snake and some of his own stupidity, this is at least the version I know.

Was old and used his bare hands to kill said dragon. The original king of the monsters

He went to take a bath in a river or pool of water after leaving the underworld and a snake took his immortality herb. He then realized the folly of his actions, accepts his mortality, and goes on to become a better king. He was close to conquering death in a way, but lost it at the very end.

He was an unmatched warrior in his time until Enkidu appeared, and he started maturing after they met. He went through a phase where he thought he was invincible, and he was in a sense, but his companion's death reminded him that there was one frontier he had not yet conquered. He never does, but it teaches him a lesson.

Herakles was a PvE build.
Achilles was a PvP build.

Yeah, from an arrow aim-assisted by a fucking god, after a lifetime of being utterly unstoppable.

>Herakles was a PvE build.
That E better stand for Everything, because he fought dudes too.

>Unstoppable.
Virgin Achilles couldn't even conquer a city-state. Chad Heracles conquered several city-states and more.

He lost the herb for a stupid reason and in an anticlimactic way is my point.

That was kind of the point. He went on this big epic journey to defy death and he fucks up and loses it on his way home in a really silly way. He realizes he was being childish and changes for the better.

Achilles in the original myth does not have invincibility except in his heel. The whole heel shit was added much, much later.

Then how does he die in this original Illiad?

He doesn't.

Well that's gay.

I think we're missing the real question here:

Hercules, or Samson?

The Iliad doesn't cover Achilles death or the conclusion of the Trojan War. However in other myths they say that Achilles was killed by Paris after being shot in the heel by an arrow (severing an artery). It's in the 1st Century AD that the myth of Achilles was invincible except in his heel is written. Achilles in Greek mythology is very-much a vulnerable mortal being. He doesn't get wounded because he's -that- good.

Well then Hercules wins handily.

Not necessarily. In the Iliad Achilles single-handily wipes out entire formations of men. And fights lesser Gods IIRC.

Heracles is just as skilled a warrior as Achilles and much, much, much stronger. It's barely a fight.

Achilles got killed in a single shot by a weakling and coward.

Beowulf was an old man by then, and he achieved mutual kill. Grendel and mom were no slouches, able to insolently slaughter armed and armored warriors without even being harmed, and he killed them both bare-handed.

I think Beowulf easily beats Achilles but loses to Heracles.

Herakles. Achilles is up there, but Herakles is THE fucking hero. This is the guy who casually arm-wrestled Apollo for three days and was winning until Zeus had to stop the match before a mortal embarrassed a god. Meanwhile, Achilles was having trouble with a single wannabe river god.

Heracles.

>Cuckilles can't even hold up the heavens.
Pathetic.

>>Became an Argonaut.
And to clarify on this one, he was a member of the crew for about half a book before the author realised "oh shit if he's around this won't even be a challenge" and had to write him out of the story. It was a little while after he smashed his way through 2-3 trials for the crew solo, and after he casually out-rowed the entire crew (all of whom were heroes in their own right, including two other demigods in the form of Castor and Polydeuces) over a solid day and night, then proceeded to row the entire ship solo for something like the rest of the week.

Top tier Greek hero is Herc, then it's a looong drop to second place.

Chad Herakles fathered a city state. Several city states.

Cringe

This, everyone forgets that Herk literally solo'd a city that took Greek armies years to capture.

He also diverted a river, bench pressed the fucking atmosphere, and had arrows dipped in hydra venom that was so deadly just the vapors would kill people or something absurd.

Herk is legitimately an epic-level character. And while Achilles may be a Level 20 fighter, perhaps the greatest mortal hero since Perseus, Herk is just a caliber all his own

He actually sustains a very minor wound fighting Asteropaeus (sp?) in the Iliad, but all it does is seem to make him madder.

>user can't handle a cuck pun.
Pathetic

Basically, the Iliad covers a period of maybe 3-4 days in the last year of the war. It was part of a huge series of epics (we have fragments of them in the form of the Trojan Cycle), so the details of Achilles' death are never clear, beyond that Apollo helped Paris (little twink boy that he was) shoot him full of arrows because Achilles murdered a couple of Apollo's children.

Well, Thetis does mention how she used to feed him ambrosia and shit, so he was less mortal than most mortals. But yeah, he was really just that badass.

>Samsons top achievement
>Destroying a temple by shoving over pillars of questionable construction quality

>Hercules' top achievement
>Taking over from Atlas in carrying THE ENTIRE FUCKING FIRMAMENT OF THE SKY

Yeah, Hercules is stronger. By a lot. Samson is basically a big guy 4 u, not the demigod Hercules is.

Also I think that Diomedes would honestly be a more viable fight for Herakles, as Diomedes managed to beat Ares up and take his lunch money in the Trojan War. And he's just a mortal.

Cringe

Traditional game?

Btw, my point still stands.
Pretty Boy can't hold shit.

Who would win is the most traditional game of all, ever since there were stories there were fags arguing over who was tougher.

Cringe

>herakles grabs your spear
>breaks it by just closing his fist a bit
Nothing personel lipless fag

Diomedes only beat Ares because Athena was helping him. He tries to fight Apollo and Apollo just laughs at him, and when Ares is helping a couple of other Trojans out Athena comes to Diomedes and asks him why he isn't fighting. Diomedes says that Ares is there, and he knows he has no chance against a god. So Athena promises to help him, and she's the one who holds his spear.

Is this the same Diomedes that Heracles killed and stole his horses from?

Yeah you can rationalize any thread on Veeky Forums that way. It still belongs in Veeky Forums.

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, that even remotely concerns Diomedes in the Iliad is just cringeworthy mary sue bullshit. Like, the Iliad is cool and all, but it devolves into a Sonic fanfic any time Diomedes is even mentioned.

>It still belongs on Veeky Forums.
>Arguing fictitious mythology.

Achilles is barely a step above big Ajax and Hector, Herakles would murder Achilles.

Where would Theseus end up on the scale of Greek mythology power?

>implying anyone can handle the spear of Achilles

This is because the real life Diomedes was probably a rich motherfucker, possibly invented wine, and was a well-paying patron. There's a reason why there's what, seven cities named after him?

Dude probably wasn't even involved in the actual Trojan Wars.

>>Built two giant pillars at the edge of the Mediterranean as a border.
Didn't he make these by punching the huge cliff-ridge thing between them to turn them into mountains?

>Implying anyone CAN'T handle the spear of Achilles.

Tell that to Agamemnon's whore. Achilles cuckolded him repeatedly

Fuck yeah he did

The greeks, its worth noting, didnt have a demigod definition like we do.

To them, mortal = dies, and stays dead.
God = doesnt die, or at least doesnt stay dead (See Dionysus).

Herakles was regarded as a mere mortal, albeit an incredible one with an equally amazing gift, and remained so until he was literally made into a god.

In Greek definition, Jesus would be a mere mortal up until he resurrects.

>board policing for even less than free
Take a guess where you belong

Beowulf gets rekt'd. Germanic mythology (in very general terms) seems to be pretty low-level compared to other eurasian mythologies.

Unlike the other user I think that Gilgamesh wins over Herk. Gil is not to blame for his story and culture having a "lol you're gonna die" morale.

Found the text by the way, if anyone is interested.

classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.21.xxi.html

>Meanwhile the son of Peleus, spear in hand, sprang upon Asteropaeus son of Pelegon to kill him. He was son to the broad river Axius and Periboea eldest daughter of Acessamenus; for the river had lain with her. Asteropaeus stood up out of the water to face him with a spear in either hand, and Xanthus filled him with courage, being angry for the death of the youths whom Achilles was slaying ruthlessly within his waters. When they were close up with one another Achilles was first to speak. "Who and whence are you," said he, "who dare to face me? Woe to the parents whose son stands up against me." And the son of Pelegon answered, "Great son of Peleus, why should you ask my lineage. I am from the fertile land of far Paeonia, captain of the Paeonians, and it is now eleven days that I am at Ilius. I am of the blood of the river Axius- of Axius that is the fairest of all rivers that run. He begot the famed warrior Pelegon, whose son men call me. Let us now fight, Achilles."

>Thus did he defy him, and Achilles raised his spear of Pelian ash. Asteropaeus failed with both his spears, for he could use both hands alike; with the one spear he struck Achilles' shield, but did not pierce it, for the layer of gold, gift of the god, stayed the point; with the other spear he grazed the elbow of Achilles! right arm drawing dark blood, but the spear itself went by him and fixed itself in the ground, foiled of its bloody banquet. Then Achilles, fain to kill him, hurled his spear at Asteropaeus, but failed to hit him and struck the steep bank of the river, driving the spear half its length into the earth.

Incidentally, I think it's the oldest literary example of someone dual-wielding, but I'm not 100% certain of that.

>In Greek definition, Jesus would be a mere mortal up until he resurrects.
>t. Heretic
The closest thing the Greeks had to Jesus were things like Zeus turning himself into a white bull, or other such godly transformations. Zeus didn't become mortal because he became a bull.

>dual wielding spears
the absolute madman

>not knowing about greek hero cults
wew lad

>He was son to the broad river Axius and Periboea eldest daughter of Acessamenus; for the river had lain with her.
>his spear of Pelian ash
> with the one spear he struck Achilles' shield, but did not pierce it, for the layer of gold, gift of the god, stayed the point
These filler sentences/sub-sentences/details are pretty funny. Doubly so when you realize they were only written in to keep the dactylic hexameter consistent.

No, Achilles is way above Hector.

Theseus is up there, he's Poseidon's kid, but he's nowhere near Herakles still. For example:

>Herakles completes 12 labours, Theseus 6
>Herakles goes all over the world and beyond, Theseus the little highway from Athens to Troezen
>Herakles does shit like divert a river or hold up the sky, Theseus catches a serial killer and kills a giant snapping turtle
>Herakles hunts and triumphs over the Erymanthian Boar, Theseus loses the Calydonian Boar to Atalanta
>Herakles goes to the Underworld and takes Hades' personal guardian with him, Theseus goes to the Underworld and gets stuck on a chair until Herakles comes back to the Underworld to rescue him
>Herakles impregnates fifty virgins in one night, Theseus barely makes it to five
>Herakles' father is Zeus, Theseus' father is Poseidon
>Herakles founds half the city states of Greece and the Mediterranean in one way or another, Theseus doesn't even found Athens he just inherits it

And so on.

I don't get why the Iliad is called a poem. I've read the whole thing multiple times and it flows about as well as drying your hands with sandpaper.

I can only imagine it flows better in the original Greek.

Have you tried speaking it in Greek, in the necessary hexameter? Some translations do try to ape it, but it's a pretty poor imitation.

t. Achiles

>I don't get why the Iliad is called a poem.
Like I said: dactylic hexameter
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter

Greek culture at the time was an oral culture, so these stories were told rather than read. In order to make the story both more pleasant and easier to remember, a certain "rhythm" was woven into the story. Hence these weird details appearing out of nowhere: these are "filler" words needed to maintain the rhythm of the story. Every sentence needs a certain number of "long" and "short" syllables.

That's why it's called a poem: this was the standard of poems in many oral cultures. I'm pretty sure the Old Testament works more or less the same way in Hebrew, though I know less about that.

Achilles could take Herakles.

Herakles is optimized for monster slaying and labor performing, Achilles is optimized for murderraping anything that isn't named Achilles or has a bow and a foot torture fetish.

Herakles is perfectly adept at murdering people too.
He indulges in it a surprising amount, even during the labours.

>Ignoring all those times he killed humans.
He actually killed more people than monsters.

Patroclus didn't seemed to hold it well enough

>I'm pretty sure the Old Testament works more or less the same way in Hebrew, though I know less about that.
Nah, not really. There are certain poems embedded into the text, like the song after the sea splits or the one near the end of Deuteronomy, (or the entire book of Psalms) but the bulk of the text doesn't have any clear meter or syllabic ordering that would be characteristic of poetry in the usual sense of the word.

My translation has the hexameter of a freight train. I love the Iliad but I hate reading it because my copy is just so fucking dry. It's like if the memes of Tolkien were real.

>or has a bow
You mean that thing he was really good with? He was also a master at wrestling and best humanoids opponents far stronger than Achilles.

There's no better archer than Herakles except maybe Apollo

Not even 12 rings Odysseus?

Stymphalian Birds, user.