I'm having trouble finding out how elves were supposed to look like in old norse mythology...

>Weren't they Jarl's champions?
they were, but they were quickly demonized when christianity came around and were later outlawed. the monstrous part might be because they would "change" into bears during battle

i think i read in an old history book by some renowned swede geezer that berserkers basically were giant dickheads who could do anything they wanted without punishment, one example was that some random guys kid walked in the way of a berserker, and the berserker just killed the guy because of that. they would also have what is theorized to be ptsd, where they could just go crazy out of nowhere and start beating the shit out of innocents

Like Tolkien elves wrapped in Christmas lights.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf#Appearance_and_behaviour
>"The Swedish älvor were stunningly beautiful girls who lived in the forest with an elven king."
>"Elves were not exclusively young and beautiful. In the Swedish folktale Little Rosa and Long Leda, an elvish woman (älvakvinna) arrives in the end and saves the heroine, Little Rose, on condition that the king's cattle no longer graze on her hill. She is described as a beautiful old woman and by her aspect people saw that she belonged to the subterraneans."

folklore elves and norse mythology elves are not exactly the same thing.

>mythological dragons were actually giant octopuses
>mythological griffons were actually snakes with a horse's head
>mythological goblins were actually huge black triangular interstellar spacecraft who used our sun as a stargate
Yeah I'm sure the elves of myth and folklore are wildly different, it only makes sense right?

You're close with the first line, the original mythological dragons were actually giant serpents.

What are you even on about? I'm just saying, there's a difference between how the elves in old norse myth are described and how elves in newer folklore like user referenced are described. And I wouldn't call it wildly different, but if it's specifically old norse mythology you want to emulate it's not a good source.

there's not any huge differences. both folklore and mythological elves are very similar. both kinds of elves have magical abilities and both are usually portrayed as very beautiful. there's no clear difference if you ask me

I think root meaning of "elf" really means something like "heightened soul-spirit" and are about heightened states of emotion, good or bad, or inspirational like a muse, and are also prone to trickery and other wild things.

context on pic?

filename

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Has anyone else come across the theory that the concept of dwarves comes from a bronze-age scandinavian folk memory of contact with migrants and traders from the south? Shorter, darker-skinned people with uncommon knowledge of metalwork. Seems kind of specious – its like the idea that the cyclops comes from finding fossils of mammoth skulls and mistaking the nasal cavity for a central eye – but I like dumb specious theories.

Dunno about OP, but a lot of north european folklore specifically mention elves as one of the 'hidden folk' ie. invisible to the human eye.

Fuck elves post huldra

Is there no tale about one of the gods or other heroes visiting Alfheim or Svaltarfheim?

Is that a shitty 3d model with a filter to make it look hand-painted? Jesus.

If it's actually hand-painted, props to the artist I guess for managing to make it look like a shitty 3d model.

Only one I can remember on the top of my head is the story about the Fenris wolf when they went to Svartalfheim to get something to bit it with crafted. The dark elves were more like dwarves than elves.

They were depicted as being beautiful and apparently human-like, and are related to magic.
Though you'll see radically different depictions of elves through germanic Europe.

That reminds me of how natives in alaska have creation stories of their god stopping their giant man eating beavers and other giant animals from growing so that the world would be safe for people. There actually were giant man eating beavers so it's interesting that oral history passes down what archaeology confirms later.

In the same vein, the locals had stories of a mammoth dieing in a specific spot that got a couple of people curious. Found a massive skeleton there when they started digging.

They're corpses.
The relation with metalworking is because metals comes from the underground.

Source on any of that? As far as I know berserkers were mostly mythological.

OG Norse myth is pretty vague on their nature. From what I understand, they're occasionally sort of blurred with ancestral ghosts.

This looks worryingly like post-Snorri memery. Protip: if it's in Marvel, it was probably invented in the post-Viking era.

>As far as I know berserkers were mostly mythological
Berserkers were surely a historic fact, probably just valued warriors of a lord. If they really could fall into something like a berserker rage is the questionable part.

>Berserkers were surely a historic fact
That's what I'm asking for a source on; just reasserting it isn't enough.
Lindi Beige is not a historical source.
AFAIK the whole point of berserkers is to wear bear skins and take on the ferocity/actual form of a bear. This portion is surely mythological (one assumes), but I'm wondering if people actually did walk around who were believed to possess such powers.

Well, the skald Þorbjörn hornklofi mentiones the Berserker in one of his poems about a battle Harald I. fought. That was in the late 9th century. That guy was the skald of Harald I.

Ah shit. I guess we've got to disregard Thor, Odin, Loki, and Asgard.

The names? No. The depictions? Partially, yes.
It's honestly sort of shocking how much of Viking myth, as it is known today, was invented by a series of non-contermporary historians, and in particular the Christian historian Snorri Sturluson. Most of what people know/think about Valhalla, for instance, has little basis in what little Vikings actually wrote down.

Honestly I shouldn't have singled out Marvel, because it doesn't really even pretend to be a faithful adaptation of Viking myth. But it's largely connected to an understanding of Viking myth that has major deviations from the origins.

Even today, we still have Jemtland, Herjedalen, Alvdal and Elverum. Now mind you, these are far inland regions, which means their inland society was extremely different from Coastal Scandinavia. So while you had to travel around entire of Norway to get from Trondheim/Nidaros to get to the Swedish or Danish coast, or you could get a few fast ponies and try to ride straight trough The Land of the Elves.
Features included everything you find about Elves in Tolkien, as behavior and habitant.
That scene in Fellow of The Ring where they basically get bow surrounded? I seriously want to know if its from a Saga or a Bard Tale written down.

Thats elves, as a people.
Small people, is a different thing, even if they are translated as fairies. They seem to basically be treated as the spirit of your home, so you should take care of them(your home).

Something something Danish Coup
Something something Civil War
Something something Rightful King of Norway, and people on Skiing.

the birkebeiners, a faction during the norwegian civil war era. on the pic, two of the best birkebeiner skiiers were tasked to bring the last child of the deceased king safely across the mountains. they're successful and he grows up, ends the civil war era and starts the golden age of norway
the saga of harald fairhair. snorri sturlasson describes berserkers during the battle of hafrsfjord

These guys are playing up the beserkers who, going by sagas, were considered little better than a social nuisance. Like hobos. There are also various theories for the supposed battle rage. Their name simply comes from the fact they wear bear skin (Ber) shirts (zerks)

In one saga this dickhead beserker is much larger than other people so he's challenging random farmers to duels, killing them, and taking their land. He gets his comeuppance when the MC shatters his jaw with his own shield.

I can supply the book which gives this conclusion and several sagas which demonstrate it. But the Beserkers kind of did whatever, they were people who experienced a battle rage and often wandered.

the dwars are corpses? what are you talking about?

I agree with this post, mostly. Berserkers were an actual "unit" in battle among the "barbarian" tribes of Northern Europe.

(here is where I differ a bit on your recount) They were a group of warriors who would take a bunch of drugs before battle, cover themselves in warpaint, strip basically naked, and charge the enemy. They were quite terrifying to the enemy because they would keep going with mortal wounds inflicted on them (to die later when their bodies gave out). I wish I could remember more about this stuff. I'm sure I got some of that wrong.

Here's a thought to anyone interested in finding out more. Try going to a library and locate (or ask for) information on berserkers. There's bound to be at least one book that talks about them.

In Tristian and Isolde, "Champion" is translated as Berserker.
So there must have been a few variants, and whatever existed got bastardized into one word, with legacy of everything.
Bearskin of Champion
Frothing of a Raving Zerker
Warp Spasms
etc

>They were a group of warriors who would take a bunch of drugs before battle
I'm 80% sure there's literally no documentation of this anywhere.
>They were quite terrifying to the enemy because they would keep going with mortal wounds inflicted on them
That definitely sounds like myth. If you disembowel someone, they drop to the ground.

My research today does suggest there were actual warriors called berserkers, but nothing suggests the historic ones were unusual in any way other than being good at fighting.

Berserker means bear-shirt, not bare-shirt. They were similar to Ulfhednar (wolf-coats) and different to Svinfylking (boar-heads, which refers to their fighting formation not their outfits).

Look up Hallowell and bear ceremonies for some anthropology studies and Ben Blaney's work comparing norse myths to archeology findings (but his work was from the 70s, I don't know any recent works you can get in english).

Their appearance is never described in any preserved Norse sources. Most likely they looked pretty much like humans, considering that there doesn't seem to be much of a practical difference between Elves, Vanir, Aesir, and Jotuns in Norse mythology, and instead they're treated more like different families or tribes of the same race.

I remember being taught in school that either the celts or gauls would take belladonna before fighting romans but I'm not sure how true that is.

In pop culture berserkers seem to be a confused mess of barbarians, vikings and woad warriors.

>bear-shirt, not bare-shirt
This is my new response to anyone claiming berserkirs were naked. Thanks, user.

>The symptoms of belladonna poisoning include dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision, tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, severely dry mouth and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion, hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions.
I dunno, that doesn't sound super useful.

>Berserkers were surely a historic fact, probably just valued warriors of a lord.
This. The word berserk means 'bear coat' or something similar. The meaning of the term is literally just "the lord's trusted champion with the fancy clothes.' Some people did enter weird rages where they growled at their opponents and bit their shiedls, if the sagas are to believed, but the people who did are never described as berserks, and the behavior is never described as frightening or disturbing.