The in-universe explaination for sneak attack in D&D 3.x is that you are catching an opponent off-guard and are attacking their vitals. You're going for their heart or their head or something vital. This is accentuated by the fact undead, constructs, elementals, oozes, plants and swarms are all immune to sneak attacks as well as anyone who is concealed.
Now with this said. Considering the logistics of sneak attack are basically just "when your opponent doesn't have their guard up go for a vital area" I ask you this: why the FUCK can't a fighter learn to sneak attack? You'd think that'd be a foregone lesson to teach anyone about combat. Why is it I have to explicitly be taught to pickpocket, stealth and find traps before I can EVEN think about learning the basic tennants of attacking someone's vital areas when they're flatfooted?
3.5 is inconsistent, haphazardly thrown-together shit. News at eleven.
Joseph Carter
Because D&D is not a simulationist system. You might just as well ask why a fighter cannot learn to cast spells by reading the mage's books.
Leo Powell
>implying the rogue ever actually gets to deal sneak attack damage in 3.pf
Austin Bennett
To put it in GURPS terms, the rogue put all his points in Targeted Attack/Vitals, while the fighter actually has decent combat skills in general. The rogue is good at killing humanoids in pre-emptive self-defense, but literally nothing else.
Also 3.5 a shit etc.
Jacob Peterson
its also if an enemy is flanked so it happens all the time
Benjamin Barnes
Nothing's stopping you from multiclassing into rogue.
Isaiah Thomas
He's talking about the many creature types and a couple of spells that prevent it.
Mason Sanders
I think that if you catch enemy completely unaware then anyone should get the basic x2 backstab damage.
STOP BULLYING 3.5! IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE A SIMULATIONIST SYSTEM! I DON'T SEE YOU FUCKS PLAYING GURPS! ALL YOU DO IS SIT IN YOUR ROOM AND SHITPOST ABOUT THINGS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!
Jaxon Gray
>IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE A SIMULATIONIST SYSTEM!
The problem is really that it's half-assed. It's simulationist when it's about shitting on martials, but gamist because classes, levels, HP, etc.
Joshua Sullivan
>I ask you this: why the FUCK can't a fighter learn to sneak attack Because he's not a Rogue.
Grayson Richardson
What games/editions do sneak attacks well?
Grayson Evans
Casters are perfectly balanced, most GMs are just shitty and let their players rest too often.
Tyler Price
>It's simulationist when it's about shitting on martials This is what most martial players want though. When it gave them a real solution they screeched about "weaboo fightan magic",
Jaxon Baker
he can- it's called multiclass, dumdum.
Matthew Watson
Unironically 4e.
Christopher Clark
Unless your group chews through CLWs like candy, the fighter will have to rest sooner.
5e doesn't use simulationism to shit on them, without going weeaboo fightan.
Hence they are now not abjectly terrible, merely not as good as the casters.
Justin Nguyen
>Unless your group chews through CLWs like candy They do, if my players do not feel like they are being challenged and placed on the verge of death I have failed as a GM.
Mason White
You'd think that the concept "hit them where it hurts" would be covered by basic fighting training is all.
Dylan Lee
Half the monster manual is immune to Sneak Attack
Adrian Hughes
With gane rules, 4-6 separated encounters per day, a fullcaster caster above 5th level will never run out of spells, unless the player is a retard. GM will have to homerule (adding mpre combats) to make no stupid full casters suffer. And the you have clerics and druids who can still beat ass without spells
Elijah Parker
>tennants
Hudson Allen
Have you tried playing a classless system?
Levi Fisher
In 3.5, being caught off guard gives an advantage to the attacker in the form of denying Dex bonus to AC. Rogues are particularly adept at striking that way and get bonus damage.
Other option: >Play True20 >Be warrior >Pick sneak attack >Profit
Connor Bell
Let's assume that playing 3.5/Pathfinder is non-negotiable for the sake of the argument.
What would happen if you transformed Sneak Attack into a Feat?
Rogues get it for free, at usual intervals. But anyone who feels like it and meets the critera (whatever those would be) can take it.
How would that effect the matter?
Gavin Lee
I'm 100% certain this exists in a splat book, maybe Complete Scoundrel.
There's a variant fighter in Unearthed Arcana called the thug that gets sneak attack dice on exchange for some feats.
Isaiah Young
It's a variant rule in the 3.5 DMG IIRC.
Zachary Ramirez
I guess I'll have to look into it. Thanks for the tip.
Scaling with levels? Rogue 1 dips for Penetrating Strike would be a no brainer. Not scaling with levels so you gain SA dice for each feat? Well, maybe Craven would make it worth it.
Kevin Morales
I'm thinking along the lines on how Vital Strike scales in Pathfinder.
Jack Richardson
Poorly?
Jose James
Eh, I like the Feat.
And it's pretty far between the intervals so a regular Rogue would still retain some competitiveness.
John Ward
Why both sneak attack and critical hits exist?
Ian Green
Because they had to make a backstab equivalent or grognards would bitch.
Evan Perez
>Pre-emptive self-defence Well, that one is going right up there with prevenge. Thank you for that.
Brayden Walker
But the fighter can get rogue levels. What's the problem?
Chase King
Because maybe "stab them in the soft bits" should be a system option instead of a class feature.
Ian Rivera
That's already what a character is trying to do anyway.
The Rogue is just better at it.
Asher Harris
While somehow being less accurate at attacking in general, the Rogue has the unique ability to strike accurately at someones goolies and other soft bits.
Jordan Walker
Fighter doesn't train to do that. He trains on reliable extra attacks. If a fighter does want to get better at attacking vulnerable areas against a distracted opponent, then they take levels in Rogue.
I also want to say that there are other ways to get Sneak Attack depending on the system.
Gabriel Walker
>play wizard >do stuff >juice runs out >nearly nothing to do in combat (in a combat centric game) >guess imma gunna go cook pizza guys ok? >disbis gud gaem design :)
Jose Reed
The Rogue is that guy who'd try to do nut shots repeatedly.
And he's really good at nut shots.
Too bad that landing a nut shot perfectly is actually quite hard if your opponent is paying his full attention to you.
David Morris
Welcome to class-based systems. Have you tried not playing DnD?
Dominic Bennett
They can, if they take the time to learn how by multiclassing into rogue or assassin.
Otherwise they're going to focus on their forms and on how to get more hits in, and not focus on striking at the heart or through a gap in the skull with one thrust.
Bentley Reed
>pre-emptive self-defense
my thief is going to start saying this.
>"what?, no, I didn't murder those guards, that was pre-emptive self defense, they would have killed me, you know, for the murders.
Ryder Miller
4e. Rogues make fantastic duellists (They have a lot of riposte/re-positioning powers) and sneak attack plays up the fact (one of the at-wills lets you sneak attack even without combat advantage as you just out-skill the other guy). I would unironically suggest the class for anyone who wants to play a fencing master in the game.
A fighter is a particular sort of martial combatant, he's not the best or only sort of martial combatant by virtue of having 'Fighter' as his name.
Hudson Price
But that's what trained warriors would try to do. It's just weird that 'hitting vital spots' is not Fighter staple but latched on the thief class, when you start thinking about it.
Jacob Perry
Well, 3.x calls it a "Rogue" not a "Thief". Hitting someone in the nuts; it's a bit of rogueish thing to do, no?
Isaac Ross
Worth mentioning that the Thief could only backstab from being hidden, and only once/combat, so it was basically just an "ambush" trick, not something you do every turn like modern iterations.
Ian Price
I think it's more that they don't go for sucker punches like a Rogue does.
Colton Clark
Original D&D requires the enemy to be completely unaware of you for a backstab to succeed (otherwise it's treated as a normal attack). It's basically a surprise attack hitting someone's vitals.
And remember D&D's combat is abstract so that attack could represent you stabbing them multiple times in the throat, kidneys, hitting them at full swing in the temple or back of the skull with a mace etc.
Jose Taylor
Like FATAL?
Robert Collins
Let's put it into perspective. Rogues are generally not good confrontational fighters and have to use things like "sneak attacks" to take down an opponent. It's assumed that things like hitting vital areas on an enemy are common knowledge as evidenced by coup de grace being available to every class. Now that's well and good, but actually training to hit those targets in the heat of combat? That would require a bit of special training not only in anatomy of a lot of creatures but experience actually doing it. The fighter who is engaged in active combat against a defending opponent who is trying to dodge and parry doesn't have the luxury of precision in where he strikes his blows - hell, name one system where called shots/strikes don't carry massive penalties.
Sneak attacks are at their core, simplified called shots and learning the precision to accurately pull them off every time takes practice in a field that the fighter of old never trained in; namely assassination. Fighters are a holdover from the days in which every one of them was either a soldier or a knight, and rogues are a blend of thieves and assassins.
All that being said, just pick a different fighter archetype that does allow for sneak attack. There are plenty of links in the thread.
Alexander Wilson
Is not, is pretty easy, flanking for example, you don't have a choice on it
William Evans
>Rogue uses a heavy axe while screaming and charging >Gets ""Sneak"" attacks because his pet dog is adyacent to enemies
Luke Russell
I like how you can sneak attack even on a golem in 5e, but only ever using pokey things, scimitars and whips. They've clearly relaxed the concept to a more general tricky fighting, so why can't a light hammer get SA against a skeleton?
Zachary Lee
it's almost like you don't have your full attention focused on the rogue because you are being flanked, so his "kick you in the nads" strategy is actually working.
Daniel Lewis
Because they wanted to force rogues into being Dex-monkeys.
Robert Nelson
Because it's not about making sense, it's about upholding sacred cows
Jason Adams
I'd like a rogue option that rewarded Dex and Str at the same time.
John Brown
But you can.
Thug is a Fighter variant that gets sneak attack instead of feats. You actually get 11d6 over 20 levels and the fighter chassis at the expense of not having actual class features.
It's not great, but it IS a very dippable class for sneak attackers.
Hunter Wright
Why do people shit on the fightan magic book?
Didnt it fix martials in 3.pf?
Sebastian Smith
>play wizard >deal 10d6 to everything in a 30ft radius 4 times >juice runs out for 3rd level spells >nearly nothing to do in combat (because everything is dead or near death, and not worth using higher level spells on) >finish off combat with a few handfulls of auto hitting unblockable d4's >go cook pizza guys ok? >disbis gud gaem design :)
Caleb Murphy
Because if they learned how to target vitals, they'd have a level in rogue.
Charles Flores
>True20 >TRUE20 We never talk about True20!
Isaiah Ortiz
>56058313 >Rogue uses a heavy axe while screaming and charging >Gets "Sneak" attacks because his well trained attack dog is biting the enemy's leg and he cant focus on both defending himself from the dog and the heavily armed rouge behind him.
Juan Sanders
...
Xavier Kelly
So 4e brutal scoundrels/ruthless ruffians?
Gabriel Turner
Something about it being too "anime" or whatever. 3.5 causes brain damage.
Ethan Reed
If you catch an enemy COMPLETELY unaware, you can make a coup de grace for an automatic critical hit and force a Fort save or the target dies.
William Flores
Right idea, yes.
Evan Reed
That's if an enemy is unconscious or asleep though.
Hardly the same thing.
If it was then sneak attack would literally be quite useless as a mechanic.
John Jones
I think the problem people are describing is that this is an example of 3.5's thematic elements not meshing well with its concept of versimilitude.
Because it tries to give hard-set concrete definitions for what a Rogue's sneak attack actually does and tries to apply those "logically" but then it still just gives those to the Rogue because it's thematic for him to have even if logically what he's doing is no different from what the fighter is doing.
This could be avoided if the book just let rogues sneak attack damn near anything, say it's cause it's thematic to the rogue and let the players suss out the in-game attack themselves but WHAT DO I KNOW?
Jason Morales
But that doesn't fully hold up as the "fighter" in gurps could still take those TA skill penalties to get the sweet damage multipliers.
Levi Garcia
Why the hell is someone "off-guard" during a fitght to begin with? Why does he keeps being "off-guard" after being caugh "off-guard" the first time?
Levi Rodriguez
Usually because it's being flanked, aka attacked by multiple opponents at the same time, or denied it's dex bonus/giving combat advantage due to debilitating conditions like stunning.
Luke Hernandez
Your guard can be up but in the wrong direction, or someone can fuck with your guard. >Why does he keeps being "off-guard" after being caugh "off-guard" the first time? In general, you aren't? The rogue would have to stealth again, which basically means you lose sight of them and they, once more, attack from a vector you have not covered. Unless you have a dozen eyes and are completely shielded from all sides, there's going to be some angle you're not looking at, not protecting.
Michael Robinson
Undead and constructs are not immune to sneak attack in PF
Nathaniel Davis
Yeah, and they crapped on the Rogue in every other way to make up for that.
Jonathan Reed
>Fighters are a holdover from the days in which every one of them was either a soldier or a knight You mean the sort of people that specifically trained to thread the needle to bypass armor through it's tiny tiny gaps? Those people?
Jackson Ward
Because the class system used in D&D is inconsistent and nonsensically restrictive. There is no good explanation other than "fighters don't SA, that's a rogue thing".
Dylan Thompson
You should check out Green Ronin's True20. In that instead of classes there are three roles that are basically "good at taking damage," "good at using skills," and "uses magic," and all the things normally relegated to class features are actually taken as feats. Want Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, and Smite? You could do that at level 1.
Josiah Williams
I guess because fighters fight "with honor" and "like gentlemen" or whatever.
Josiah Jackson
Yes but (at least in AD&D) it was called "backstab" because facing actually mattered, AC from behind was different from the one on the front and so on. When 3e did away with facing, backstab became sneack attack in order to abstract a bit more that thing.
Henry Hill
What's stopping the fighter from taking a level of rogue?
Grayson Rodriguez
Nothing but what does hitting a guy who's flatfooted for extra damage have to do with trapfinding?
Daniel Murphy
Try Fantasy Craft. Most sneak attack progression comes from feats, not class. Burglars don't even get sneak attack aside from a single die as an option from a "pick from a menu of abilities" class feature, though they do get a lot of bonus Covert feats which are the category with most of the sneak attack. The Scout does get a dedicated sneak attack progression, but even there it's mainly feats that will drive your sneak attack.
Leo Hughes
There's already a flanking bonis, to each of those extra attacks, and surprise attacks that deny dexterity.
Alexander Howard
And, of you want to go for soft bits when they're easier to take advantage of, power attack.
Parker Williams
It works kinda like that in Fantasy Craft, certain classes gain free sneak attack dice but you can also gain it from a feat chain that works on flanking enemies (Wolf Pack chain).
Oliver Williams
But power attack is explicitly you trading accuracy for damage.