Are the changes to Ollanius Pius' character a definite proof that Black Library just doesn't get 40k?

Having read all of the thread I'm still not sure what the problem is.

youtu.be/AGrvQ1c5khU

>fucking references to real life history
Yeah but Terra is gonna have that shit though. It almost never shows up in any other fucking lore and it is usually so minor that it's an eye-roll at most.

>fucking perpetuals
>emperor's retcon

I'm assuming you mean the bit about the shamans all killing themselves and being reborn or some shit? I dunno but I'm okay with the Emperor being a perpetual so long as nobody else is or something that's unique to him. I'd be cool with that but anyone else being a perpetual can fuck off. It's being handed out like fucking candy by BL and it's stupid.

Not wrong about BL raping the canon bit by bit over the years.

Wait, so the Emperor is no longer the product of a collective shaman suicide? Where was that retconned?

At least he exists which is a step in the right direction.

The whole "shaman suicide" thing is just convoluted and violates the KISS principle. Just have him be a Man of Gold, a latter-day Napoleon-wannabe or whatever.

I think he's talking about the idea that the emperor was one of a group of perpetuals and that he went to some planet a stole power from the chaos gods.

The shaman origin is at least interesting.

KISS principle? I dunno, maybe it's just my bias since that was the lore when I got into the world, newf-g that I am, but I think the idea of a being which is the sum of a bunch of really old really wise souls becoming a callous, self-righteous atheist deity makes a lot of sense for the world. Everything to do with the Emperor is about how his greatest works betrayed him and he received the polar opposite of all his ambitions. The idea that his nature itself was poisoned from the start drives home the point

It's going to be Valdor or Horus Aximand who stand up to him now. Cap it.

Vengeful Spirit

>The shaman origin is at least interesting.
Could not agree more.

Those aren't retcons though. "Perpetuals" is a generic term for immortal people no matter how they achieved such immortality, Emp could be one of them because of the shamans stuff. Nothing in the current lore invalidates it.
Same for the Molech episode. It was implied from the beginning that the Chaos Gods weren't happy with the Primarch Project, and this is the reason why. Big E stealing the gods' power is more a shitty addition to the story than a true retcon.

Whats up with this fagish weeb art?

A bunch of faggot weeb artists are fans of 40k

>real life history
This triggers me the most, because the entire point of the setting was to be so far in the future that nothing in the present mattered--this is why it was shifted from 4K to 40K at the very beginning of the project. Not in the sense that it was all destroyed, but in the sense that nobody cares. As an example: how many Americans are familiar with Nepalese history? All the information exists, it's just hard to access if you only speak English and nobody sees how it could be relevant to their lives. The entire fucking conceit of the setting is that it is so incredibly removed from the now, and BL doesn't get this. Even I get this and I'm an idiot. How dumb are these people?

No, it's just proof that a certain (((Laurie Goulding))) needs to be let go ASAP

Any scenes on Terra are 28000 years in the future. In that time several almost extinction events happened, culture, religion and languages changed as they always do.

Them knowing anything about our time is pure bullshit.

Newfag here, started reading into 40k's lore a year or so.

Why early BL is awesome but newer stuff is dogshit fanfiction?

I mean, lore regarding new edition is very subpar, somethings are indeed painful to read.

>Why early BL is awesome but newer stuff is dogshit fanfiction?

Building off what an above user said, I think it's because earlier BL tended to be smaller scale relative to current. Like, Eisenhorn, Gaunt's Ghosts, the Space Wolves series, Ciaphas Cain, etc were better for lore because they were largely contained within their own series and characters, and thus didn't force any sweeping lore changes like Horus Heresy or The Beast.

Another issue is that for some reason, the writers in charge think that any old background is crap, so they're changing everything.

However, they forgot that people got into the game -because- of the old background, not in spite of it

They featured the more human side of the Imperium, on a more human scale.
SPACE MUHREENS are unfortunately pretty boring characters.
this is also correct

> Everything to do with the Emperor is about how his greatest works betrayed him and he received the polar opposite of all his ambitions.
>The idea that his nature itself was poisoned from the start drives home the point

That's... that's a really good take user.

What the fuck? Why would recorded history be "lol dunno" just because you're in the far future?

Even if Terra is radically different, humans had spread across the galaxy long before the unification of Terra and must have taken their histories with them, possibly even relics from the ancient past. They may or may not be able to piece together a coherent timeline of human history as of the current setting but to think nobody knows ANYTHING stretches credulity.

Sometimes it is the newfags who make the most astute observations.

I never looked at it this way, but indeed. That makes him even more of a tragic figure. Kind of how in mythology people born from unlawful relationships usually end up paying for their very existence.

Valdor survived the Heresy according to the new Custodes book

Horus Aximand is destined to get killed by Loken.

BL has been shit ever since they gave ADB spotlight

Shamans try to defeat fate and the gods.
They get dick over by fate and the gods.

Well, we gotta make sure that Chaos is the only faction with anything like agency.

>BL has been shit ever since
you can just stop right there

they've always been the dumping ground for the weakest share of the lore.

Biggest divide I've noticed is between people who like the idea of a golden age that *could* have worked, but got ruined forever, and those who like the idea that the plan was destined to ruination from the start.
Both are valid approaches, though jumping the tracks from one to the other certainly got a bit rough there for a while.

>First 3 HH books were decent
>DE and Mars series were both cool, and showed niche factions off
GW is utterly retarded with their own IP and its tragic though

I figured it was going to be Loken for maximum Pottery fron Horus Rising.

I mean, we all know Horus will end up on the throne anyway as some kind of stupid tweest

This basically. It's in character with GWs approach to the franchise generally - >'advancing the storyline' instead of exploring the potentially infinite depth and scope of the setting
>replacing fluff and models for no reason other than they and some of the more ADHD fucktard fanbase seem to think that new automatically equals better

Heh, much obliged, real kind of you to say so. I do adore the world, as much as there are revisions I dislike. But even then like Olanius Pius, you can choose what is true to make it more meaningful to you. Olanius might have been a complete fabrication by the Imperium, underscoring that in the 41st millennium, every good is a front for something with it's own selfish motives. But there might have been a hero, a genuine mortal man who in faith or duty stood between his Emperor and Horus, showing that even in the worst possible timeline, there is genuine belief and heroism. And that might be more tragic, that even then the Emperor's people were willing to destroy themselves in faith for him. His anger might not have been with Horus' disregard for mortal life, but Pius'. As unfocused as the narrative is, there really are just so many neato concepts and that unfocus can really help to reconcile the disputes. A world where everything is true and false gives a lot of leeway to tell some wild stories.

Sure are! And are making art of the setting they love with the skills they know. It's not exactly grim darkness, but I appreciate it. But you aren't wrong thinking it's not a good representation, but there are plenty enough other artists with different styles

Yeah, the fluff dropped in quality around 2007. Putting BL in charge of it wasn't exactly an ideal solution to the creative bankruptcy either.

Fuck off, we have found copies of all three of Shakespire's plays, we know all of the past now. Truly we live in a new golden age.

This is the best part of 30k.

Living in a Rogue Trader groundside mansion, with a Scarface-sized bowl of xenos cocaine, the finest food and drink, and a couple hot, replaceable sex concubines, with ships on call, cash rolling in, a couple squads of Astartes for muscle...

They propably have not recordings of stuff from 28000 years past left...
Just in comparsion, the Pyramids were built 6000 years ago.
Julius Caesar was killed around 2000 years ago.

28000 years is longer than human civilization so far. In universe there were at least two almost extinction events occuring which either fucked up all records or lead to almost total destruction.

It's not that they should go "lul dunno", but "nothing but legends left over, so this Shkspre here might've been a prophet or a psyker. Maybe just a cultist of some demons. Maybe an artisan or something. Propably a warlord, tho."

Correction, Pius was a myth perpetuated by the Ecclesiarchy and kept as a saint for the Imperial Guard, him being in the actual telling of Horus vs Emperor was never the case.

I have always found it very amusing that players bought into the fictional propaganda.

Well Balls of Adamantium is way more interesting than a super soldier demi god having daddy issues

But then you have people like Malcador and his order that predated the Unification Wars, whose whole reason for existing was the preservation of human knowledge. And apparently were resourced sufficiently to have a large facility in the Himalayas that the Big E built on top of. His quarters have two Rembrandts, a Van Gogh, and Da Vinci's Mona Lisa in stasis fields, so some work was put in.

And a lie is more interesting than the old "muh balls of steel" meme that's getting rusty.

We can all agree Marines are most boring part of the setting.

Maybe outside of 40k they would be cool.

Nah, Chaos Space Marines is the most boring part of the setting.

Some CSM are interesting. Macharion of the VIII Legion...

That doesn't make the rest of them more interesting by extension. Chaos is just mundane and boring. Somehow they are the most static thing in the franchise.

>weeb art
Is calling western comic-style art weaboo some kind of new thing? There isn't anything in this thread that's even passingly eastern.

>tfw you unironically enjoy the HH seres
I like nearly all the changes they've made, though the changes to Pious does miss the point yes. However I'd much rather have perpetual christian Pious if it means to have the current versions of the rest of the cast.

fyi, the shaman origin is stupid and nonsensical as fuck. Fight me.

I just want the immortal God emperor of mankind to have actually gotten his powers from mankind. Whether through a mass human sacrifice, or through just being a badass I don't care, but the idea that the warp god of humanity only got his power from other chaos gods is shit.

...

BL HH is stupid and nonsensical as fuck.

I like certain stories in BL's Horus Heresy, but Perpetuals and the Cabal trigger me pretty hard.

That is exactly the problem we're talking about. It stretches credulity to the utmost that anything can last 40k years without so much distortion it's unrecognizable, let alone a secret society. Entire civilizations come into being, thrive, and are completely forgotten on a smaller scale.

How about this: If they had the foresight and resources to preserve the fucking Mona Lisa, why the fuck don't they have a single god damn functional fucking STC?

I agree, things in the 40th millennium should be ambiguous, what with so many wars and disasters, lost records and whatnot. The need to explain everything ruins the mythology.

>the shaman origin is stupid and nonsensical as fuck. Fight me.

Why would I want to fight you instead of buying you a beer? Still and all, this did give me food for thought.

>perpetual christian Pious
I like this too.

Forgeworld is the true savior of the fluff.

Shame Alan is dead.

Not really, a lie is actually really expected and old hat in the Grimdark of 40k.

Emperor Ermac is at least 20 Times More interesting than the overdone “Muh Faustian Deal” bullshit.

>SUSPECT OF BL BOMBING REVEALLED TO BE SAM HYDE
How does he keep getting away with it?????

>utterly pants on head retarded dumpsterfire (anything that ever bore the label Dawn of War)
What was wrong with Dark Crusade or Winter Assault’s Lore?

Pius was slways Imperoal Church's propaganda.
Horus killed Custodes/Imperial Fist Terminator.

And now BL is giving us some immortal Olly Pesson with superknife who is travelling entire galaxy on foot.

>X vague aspect was always my head canon interpretation
Not only are you arrogant, but you have shit taste as well.

And the solution to this is to confirm neither.
Show that the Emps has plans, keep the power of Chaos gods undefined, stuff like that. But no, we NEED an OC snowflake demon that's unkillable and DEFINITELY will kill Emps and all his power is stolen anyway.

Comitting to one side of the answer is a massive mistake, for the same reason why the missing primarchs should never be revealed.

Can you post some source?
When I last time read Collected vision it was some Custodes who was killed by Horusa, and from what I remember first time when we got any clue what happend during Emps vs Horus battle there was some Imperial Fist Terminator.
Pius is just propaganda.

Neither of these actually Disprove Pius though, you do realize that it is not only possible, but probable, that Horus could have killed multiple other people during his fight with The Emperor right?

Because STCs were advanced machines that were damaged and fucked with, whereas the Mona Lisa was a specific static artwork with no electronics.

Hello, newfag. Please kindly either fuck off to r*ddit or spend a few more lears lurking.

>How about this: If they had the foresight and resources to preserve the fucking Mona Lisa, why the fuck don't they have a single god damn functional fucking STC?

My house is burning down! Do I grab my priceless family heirloom painting or the owners manual to my 99 Honda Accord?

Or the Encyclopedia.

Exactly, fuck those mundane things. There's a hurricane/flood/horde of kill bots coming. The average Joe is gonna grab their important shit and bug out. They can always buy a new car manual or encyclop-

>oh shit the killbots blew up all the book printing machines

And that's how you get a lost apocalyptic dark age

CS Goto was the author. The same CS Goto that also wrote eldar snuff and backflipping terminators armed with multi-lasers.

"Grasping one talon in the formidable grip of his power fist, Neleus dragged the lictor creature out of the sand and held it momentarily, dangling from its own fore-talon. Then, with a swift movement, he crushed the talon in his fist and launched the hapless creature in the air with a swing of his immense arm, riddling it with hellfire shells as it flew. By the time it landed back in the sea of its own kind, the creature was little more than a shredded husk."

Terminator Armor does many things, but giving a Space Marine the strength to throw a 1-ton Tyranid a few hundred feet through the air is not one of them.

"Balder's fellow veterans were in formation around him, discharging volleys of lasfire from their multilasers, providing support for Hoenir's squad."
-Warrior Brood

I figure they tried to make Pious more ''human'' by linking him to real world events like WW1 and such but it only made him less interesting if he's gonna sacrifice himself against the ultimate evil.

Oh my god, you gigantic space nigger. The game itself is fine, and the book is widely accepted as non-canon or complete horseshit propaganda.

>Horus kills the Emperor
>badly wounded
>regrets killing his father
>loyalist forces beating heretics
>decides to take his fathers place
>it's actually Horus on the Golden Throne

Writing stories about the Horus Heresy in excruciating detail was the dumbest thing Forgeworld and Black library ever did fluff wise. The whole point of that time period was that it was shrouded in mystery. Now we know more about it than we do about fucking 40k and all the mystery and intrigue it had is gone.

>The entire fucking conceit of the setting is that it is so incredibly removed from the now, and BL doesn't get this. Even I get this and I'm an idiot. How dumb are these people?

I wish they would make more references to the events of the Old Night especially all the colorful warlords of old Terra.

But they don't, because referencing things that the reader knows about is easier to do and is more "profound" than referencing pseudohistory from M28. It's kinda like how high Gothic is represented as fake Latin to us, when in fact it really isn't.

You have not explained how this is relevant to Dark Crusade or Winter Assault. The Worst lore mixup I can think of is the Presence of Sorceror’s in the Khornate Army In Winter Assault, which is an acceptable and necessary exception becuase Khornates are the most boring and one dimensional Forces of the Already Boring and One dimensional forces of Chaos.

>It's kinda like how high Gothic is represented as fake Latin to us, when in fact it really isn't.
I always thought that High Gothic was a 40,000 year old Bastardization of Latin that the Emperor invented because he’s a nostalgia fag.

>reference fragements of the most famous playright in all 2000 years or 1/20 of history
>the same as someone from today citing an extremely influential person like julius caesar
>bro this kills my belief

Except you know, ten times the time gap and with a few near-extinction “Oh shit we lost damn near everything” events.

yeah warp storms destroyed all the books owned by super elite aristocrats.

Hamlet is like one of the most played plays ever. I bet you could round up some actors who have the lines in memory well enough to write down the script again - or close enough.

And that's assuming you don't find any partial copies.

>preserving that stuff for 28 thousand years of civilizations rising, falling and rising again in the ruins
>Having anyone who bothers to understand a language from 28 thousand years ago
That period of time is so ridiculously remote that you'd get something that barely resembled the original works if people even bothered translating them over and over so they're readable.

>books surviving that long
This is how I know you're retarded.

Now do that a hundred times, loosing it and rebuilding it from the memories of people, all while languages change. You will not end up with Shakespeare, you chimp.

Techno-barbarian Raiders, natural disasters, Riots, particularly destructive infighting, wannabe Big Brothers, time, neglect, and other such “mundane” events are equally, if not more so, capable of destroying Books and Databases. Maybe scraps of stories could survive and exert influence through oral tradition and memes, But unless the Emperor had a photographic memory of every Scholar, Philosopher, artist, and Story, it is very likely that most of Human History should either be lost to time, or simply buried too deep for anyone to bother looking for it, especially when there are much more pressing and survival threatening matters to attend to.

>it is very likely that most of Human History should either be lost to time, or simply compiled in a jealously guarded magos' computer
ftfy

>You will not end up with Shakespeare, you chimp.

yes you will end up with shakespire with many scenes and lines changed.

>*Implying they don't.

There could easily be a pristine stc with all knowledge down there. Hidden away where no one remembers where it is. Just a few techpreists scuttling about, performing matainance on the constructs that keep it all there, forever preserved perfectly, right under their noses. And never gazed upon for it's contents, and highly taboo to even dare think of looking upon it.