/osrg/ Old School Renicance General

Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General thread.

>Trove:
pastebin.com/QWyBuJxd

>Online Tools:
pastebin.com/KKeE3etp

>Blogosphere:
pastebin.com/ZwUBVq8L

>Previous thread:

What is the best setting you have played in, homebrew or otherwise?

Other urls found in this thread:

ebay.com/itm/Dungeons-Dragons-3-volume-Rules-Cyclopedia-Japan-Mediaworks-TSR-Inc-/192244805158?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275
isthatinthebible.wordpress.com
strawpoll.me/14315571
hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2012/06/on-set-design.html
1d4chan.org/wiki/Wilderlands_of_High_Fantasy
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Shit chart. Post the better one.

Didn't know it existed. Why did you complain instead of posting it?

I don't have it saved.

>Hey Sperkles, you're way into history right?
Oh lord. I'll look at this some more later tonight, but it's already giving me a headache. In short, if you're getting your history and politics and religion from Veeky Forums, god help you, because you're really going to end up with a warped perspective.
>Can you give me your 2¢ on the matter?
What matter specifically?

nah. Same logo, though.
I took the idea from Trail of Cthulhu. I see it as being kind of the same as random encounters; it's a detail that is undefined until it becomes relevant, and then you roll for it.
I dislike the 'flashback' thing because it breaks the flow of gameplay to do a weird arty thing with scene framing. This is more 'roll intelligence to see if you remembered to pack matches'. It mostly arises because I'm finding tracking inventory the most fiddly bit of the game, and ties into my 'level determines amount of resources' thing which, again, is designed to reduce book-keeping and turn it into an abstracted roll.

>What matter specifically?
How much of what he's saying is bias.

...

...

I've always wanted to get a copy of this and read through it.
I'd be interested to see how it differs from the English version.

I'd love to read the translations of the added bits explaining the expected setting to the non-Western audience.

Who's ran a DCC campaign? How did it play out?

This is a real long shot, but I'm heading to Japan in a couple months and would really like to get a hold of this book and others like it. But I have no idea where to find this stuff. I can't imagine that there's a used game store for RPGs there, and I'm unsure if they even have LFGS. Does anyone have experience with this?

>I can't imagine that there's a used game store for RPGs there

Dog, it's Japan. They have a store for EVERYTHING.

Never been to Japan but there is someone on ebay selling them right now.

ebay.com/itm/Dungeons-Dragons-3-volume-Rules-Cyclopedia-Japan-Mediaworks-TSR-Inc-/192244805158?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275

I've always wondered how a Japanese tabletalk game played in the 80's "feels" in comparison to a common session in NA? I suppose there are novelizations of game sessions over there, wonder if any have been translated?

Yeah sure, but where? Where can I find info about this?

>$350
That's what I'm trying to avoid. If I'm in Japan I imagine I can find it cheaper as long as I actually DO find it.

Akihabara?

Akihabara.

Just don't piss off anyone there or you may get a friendly visit from the yakuza.

This one?

Hell yeah, the 90s anime fantasy aesthetic is GOAT

Whichever one of you recommended Courtney Campbell's set design instead of boxed text/room key is a fucking God.

That's the one.

Even though I made the damn thing I wonder if it's a bit too autistic.

100% of what he's saying is biased. Everything I say is biased too. That's how it works.

'd say most of the /facts/ are accurate, or accurate-ish, for Veeky Forums standards, but please keep in mind that the facts alone aren't enough. I could lay out a very convincing series of facts, in isolation, to prove that the CIA killed Kennedy. Everything I'd say would be true - but not exactly useful, in context.

So that's what this guy is doing. He's taking bits out of context, jumping around, summarizing, ignoring, leaping from the broad view to the specific, and generally spinning a story.

Islamic history is very much not my area. I've only got about 5 volumes on it, plus a few source texts, so I'm really not able to judge most of the claims or put them in a broader "what is the accepted view?" context.

It's very easy to take harsh moral positions - that the Quran is an instrument for seizing power, that Catholics are blindly obedient sheep, that Evangelicals are hateful bigots, etc. It's easy because it fits into the way our brains want the world to work. So be very cautious of the easy, convenient, one-line answers, because oh boy the more you dig into history the more everything becomes a mess of conflicting motives, best efforts, compromises, and people acting like people. We tend to think of everyone acting on motives that match our ideals, but everyone acts like they're working at a kind of shitty job under too much time pressure and with not enough resources. History is more or less people half-assing it, 9-5. We would have stood with them. Matthew 23:29-36

Also,
>How do you know this, because as a straight white male I find it hard to believe that the largest religion in the world would have these wildly inconsistent claims and beliefs.
Is /hilarious/ to me. Has his person never even HEARD of Christian theology! My god! They are in for a real treat one of these days when they find a site like: isthatinthebible.wordpress.com

I wasn't that guy, but I second that. It's very good.

I like this version better

Secret tip: system doesn't matter. Any OSR campaign would work with any system, more or less.

What ethnicity are those 3 on the bottom right?

t. GLOG poster

Don't understand the appeal of the Storyteller system.

3.5 Changelings.

Can y'all take a poll for me?
strawpoll.me/14315571

Speaking of DCC, does anyone have a good PDF of some magic items I can sprinkle into my game?

What do you do about hidden traps/doors etc in OSR games? I see in the Primer it talks about players describing what they are doing to find traps etc, which I like, but I also see rules in B/X, BFRPG about having a 1 in 6 chance to find traps and race/class bonuses for finding traps and doors. How do you handle this in your games?

I mean, I like both ability-based throws and a separate generic save for luck and/or weird stuff that doesn't have a specific stat, but...

> Courtney Campbell's set design
What is this?

What's the best OSR game to run if I'm going to GM for the first time with it?

B/X

I do both. Either:

Q. "Do I notice anything odd on the ground?"
A. Yeah, it looks like a small square has dust has blown from it in one long strip ahead of you. Looks suspicious.
Q. "Do I see anything above?"
A. There's a long recession in the roof, to dark to see up into.

>Trap spotted, no need to roll.

or

Q. "I'm gonna search for traps in this hallway" *rolls 1 in 6*
A. Your eye barely catches a triggerplate on the floor slightly cleared of dust. Looks suspicious.

Basically it depends on whether my player specifically asks about things or just makes a vague search skill check.

Most WoD players agree the actual engine is kinda janky. The appeal is the way that particular subsystems (such as blood, frenzy and so on for vampire) reflect what's going on in the world. It's a simulationist game in a cool setting, even if the actual dice mechanics are a bit weird.
Nobody actually LIKES storyteller, but lots of us like vamp because of the setting and the way the mechanics push the setting.

Source: I have been to too many vamp larps and even played wraith a few times.

Lamentations of the Flame Princess is pretty good for a beginner, if you don't mind the art. Has some decent modules for it. I'm introducing new players to the OSR usin Tower of the Stargazer next week. But really any system will do, the big ones are about 80% the same.

LotFP.

It's a cleaned up B/X with a simple skill set an easy encumbrance.

>Essentials doesn't shift in color

It's not cleaner and the encumbrance is mechanically worse.
The cookie-cutter thief skills are nice though.

Basic. Introducing people to the game is why it exists.

But 5e was obviously influenced by 4e's mechanics.

LotFP but don't run Tower of the Stargazer, run "The Doom Cave of the Crystal Headed Children" instead.

>includes literary influences
>no Leiber

Really?

Like all memes/common opinions, this one is starting to reach a turning point. It's a valid view at first, then it's a funny meme, now it's starting to become irritating. Don't become like the "le humans only xd" guys, restraint your Glog meme for when it's relevant and funny.

Caverns of Thracia

Only if you remember that CoT's designed for core-only OD&D's "100 xp per monster HD" reward rate.

I like Storyteller games*. The settings, at least for the ones I like, are extremely evocative, edginess aside. And even their edginess is often* less than some of the stuff in the OSR realm. They're also really cohesive settings. The way people play is enjoyable as well. Sure, you could probably play other games like that, but people don't. Unlike many (apparently) I also like the system, though. It's pretty rules-light, the "spells" all fit the design well, the rules work splendidly, and overall it plays very cohesively. I dunno. If there's something specific you want to know I can try to answer.

*Minus their newer stuff. Obviously.

>he runs modules verbatim

>he runs modules

lol. I have the LotFP handbook and the art varies from pretty gud to borderline gore porn. I get its supposed to be spoopy or edgy, but if they toned it down one tick on the dial, I'd love all of it.

I love the mechanics but the edgelord crap turns off the rest of my group.

Then don't use the edgelord crap.

My two cents is play the original first. Holmes Basic is great. The B/X everyone is talking about.

B2: Keep on the Borderlands, was what popped my D&D cherry. We had a blast, and I'm playing d&d on the regular at least once a week every week for 10 years, and plan to continue like such until I die.

I forgot to add that my reasoning for choosing an original is it gives your players a chance to explain what they do and don't like about the system after a solid month or two of play.

This then gives you an idea of what retro clone you'd like to take on, since most address specific aspects of the game very well. Hell, you players might like B/X but just want more, meaning you can move right up to BECMI or Rules Cyclopedia, or move further up to AD&D. There are retro clones for these too of course.

My group likes most the simplicity of having to use d20 and d6 for the most of their tasks, so I use Labyrinth Lord as our core rules, add a d6 skill check mechanic from LotFP and sprinkle some house rule into it for added flavor.

>World of Darkness - - -> Planescape
Is this true?

>What is this?
Only the best way to format your prep notes.

hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2012/06/on-set-design.html

>*Minus their newer stuff. Obviously.
nWoD was a mistake.

>Fact 1: AD&D 2e has NWPs because RQ was big at the time and TSR felt it had to compete.
>Fact 2: TSR made a TCG to compete against MTG
So we've established that TSR riffs off the competition.

>Fact 3: Planescape's set-up is a big riff on WoD
PCs are special
The PCs have unique knowledge of how the universe works compared to the common plebs
There is a deus ex machnina NPC to enforce the status quo
Copious first-person narration
Attempts to present high school philosophy as "deep"
Factions that center around philosophies

>Is this true?
yes. WoD's central conflicts are all about ideology and politics. Same with planescape. It was openly written so you could get the same depth of debate about the setting and who's 'right' that WoD generates.

Neat. I never knew that.

I like nWoD.

How do you guys handle perception?

Just switched from 5e to LotFP and didn't see anything about it. Didn't even think about it until one of my players asked if he saw which direction a bad guy fled during the middle of combat.
I had him roll a Search skill check (1 out of 6 chance).

Naw.

Decide ahead of time how easy it is to notice broad/major categories of things (i.e. automatic if looking, or the exact X roll that's needed), then be consistent in calling those. Never allow passive player-called checks ("do I see anything?"): always insist on them being the result of player or NPC actions, or something you roll in secret if there's actually something specific to be noticed.

Offhand, what you did for that specific incident seems good to me: a nice quick call and resolution.

Roll Wisdom or under.

Mostly, if they just ask/say where/how they're looking for something, I tell them. So I'd probably say, sure, you know which way he went (assuming there weren't some extraordinary circumstances at play).

If it really necessitated a roll, I'd probably have them roll under WIS, but your method is equally valid. You won't find a rule for it in the book, so as long as you've got a consistent ruling that lets play keep moving along unimpeded, you're fine.

>Never allow passive player-called checks
I ran my first ever game of B/X this weekend. As soon as I finished describing their approach to the dungeon, the FIRST thing one of my players does is pick up his dice and say, "I'm gonna roll to—"

I cut him off right there. Absolutely did not want to start this game with the wrong expectations. These were all Pathfinder players, but still—I almost couldn't believe that was his first thought. Had to curb that shit real quick.

>Fact 1: AD&D 2e has NWPs because RQ was big at the time and TSR felt it had to compete.
2e has NWPs because they were judged major enough to put into the core book (as optional content). You must have meant to type 1e.

>PCs are special
>The PCs have unique knowledge of how the universe works compared to the common plebs
You don't have to play Planar natives.

Exactly. Absolutely not surprised though, and I don't think you should have been either. You're working against at least a solid couple of decades of ingrained habit: that's the way games have told players they get their vital information, so in their minds they'd be dumb if they didn't do it. Give them time and they'll learn. Nice to hear you're laying down the law. :)

I'm confused. What's so bad about a player asking to roll to do something?

Our whole shtick is that we roleplay most non-trivial non-repetitive non-combat activities.

No offense, but it sounds like it'd take forever to get through a dungeon like that.

It works for what it tries to do, which is make a game that combines attributes and skills in a way that allows for more complex characters, and even a small difference in combat power is felt (remember, it was only meant to run Vampire at first). In the long term, it works ok for its WoD settings, combat heavy setting suffer.

In systems with player-dictated Perception/Awareness-type rolls, actual descriptions of player actions and any accompanying cleverness is replaced by a mechanical "I make a find-the-thing roll". So you don't have the player tell you the exact steps they're taking to look for something concealed like an ambush--they just roll some dice instead.

This is worse if there's no cost to rolling such a check (and there usually isn't), because then a player has nothing to lose by saying "I make a Spot check" with every step they take (and in fact would be stupid if they didn't).

There isn't, however he wants to convince his players to actually ask questions about their surroundings in order to discover traps and secrets, as opposed to a roll.

I for one encourage active character participation with automatic discovery, and if everyone has either exhausted their ideas or I feel they aren't convincing me, I ask them to roll instead.

You should only roll when the GM tells you to.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. As soon as I'd finished my couple lines of introductory spiel to the adventure, the FIRST thing to happen was that this player picked up is dice, started rolling, and started telling me what he was rolling to do.

He didn't ASK if he could roll. I hadn't PROMPTED him to roll for anything. They hadn't even asked a single question, or really declared an action, or anything.

I cut him off before the dice could hit the table, told him that wasn't exactly how this worked, then asked him what he wanted to accomplish. He said he wanted to see if there were any tracks leading to the dungeon (something that I guess would be a Survival or Perception roll in Pathfinder).

Then I just told him the visible the signs that the area was well-travelled recently, no need to roll for it, and we moved on.

>>non-repetitive
>hey ref; until we say otherwise we're performing [some additional trap searching activity] during normal moves
>sure, let me write that down
Also the simplistic combat runs super quick.
All-in-all, it's much faster paced than later editions.

There are workarounds for the no cost thing. Like the GM rolling, or failing meaning you set off the trap, rather than not finding it.

But, the player says "I roll" over role playing, while annoying when used by a lazy player, is usful to players who struggle to role play a particular thing. RPGs are about escaping, and being someone who leads a life that's cooler or more exciting than ours. So when a person who isn't the brightest wants to play detective, or a person with a speech impediment or learning disability wants to be the face, the dice are there.

I try to encourage players who struggle to role play a particular thing to at least describe what they want to accomplish. Saying, I roll diplomacy sucks. Saying, I want to convince the guard that we're merely harmless travelers and that he should let us through, then rolling diplomacy is okay.
>inb4 social skills hatefest argument

Absolutely. It's just that we're naturally lazy, and the more options for dice rolling over description there are, the more we'll take. While understanding that everything is to the limits of your players and the scenario in question, you need to be proactive about encouraging descriptive play or you just won't get any more than the minimum.

>is usful to players who struggle to role play a particular thing
Absolutely, BUT there's a big difference between saying "I roll to do X" and "I do X".

Saying, "I search the area for tracks or signs that someone else has passed through here recently," is great. The player doesn't need to get into detail about exactly how they search, or roleplay any of the specific actions they would take in searching—they've sufficiently conveyed their intent to the DM, and he now has what he needs to begin adjudicating that action (whether that means rolling / calling for a roll, simply stating the outcome, asking for further information, whatever).

Saying, "I roll to search for tracks" is worse in a lot of ways. These kinds of statements tend to be shorter / more general, which muddles the player's intent and often forces the DM to prompt for clarification. It's also incredibly presumptuous, since it assumes the DM wants the player to roll, when in fact many of the things a Pathfinder player might expect to roll for are handled much more sensibly and efficiently by the DM adjudicating the action without a roll (or maybe with a quick roll of his own).

Until arguments pop up over how you go about trapfinding.

Thank you for all of the replies. I think I get it now.

perception rolls are bad. Only use them very occasionally, and treat them the same as you do saves; basically, it's your 'save vs surprise'.
WHY?
Because as a player, your player doesn't know anything you don't tell them about, and their ability to make meaningful decisions depends on having enough information. Since they're interacting with the world only through descriptions rather than first hand, they're already at a disadvantage.
By requiring perception rolls, you're removing their ability to make real decisions if they fail. Effectively, this reduces their agency and increases the role of randomness in the game, resulting in less Fun and less Player Skill.

Remember, in OSR, most stuff can be handled through naration and planning: you only need to get dice out when shit is serious and difficult to just adjudicate based on common sense (typically where death or other disaster is a real consequence).

nWoD was great until they turned it into Chronicles and gave us shit like Beast and every book after Requiem 2.0. Onyx Path is a shitheap and anyone that gives them money after the mess that was Exalted 3e deserves cancer.

No problem. It's really a matter of getting the players out of the mindset of rolling dice FIRST to solve problems, and into the mindset of primarily asking questions, describing actions, and generally engaging with the game world. (The GM will tell you when a roll is necessary; often it isn't.)

It's especially important to harp on this when you're bringing in players from a modern edition of D&D, because carrying those habits into an OSR game will either create friction at the table from mis-matched expectations or devalue a lot of what's important to our style of play.

The important thing is to be clear and fair.
The player shouldn't be saying 'I roll to search the cave' or even 'I search the cave with my poking-stick'. They should be saying WHY as well. 'I think there might be a hidden exit here, GM, so I'll search the cave to find it'.
As a GM, I'm constantly asking my players 'OK, what are you intending to achieve by that' and 'are you aware that...' so that the situation and intent is clear BEFORE dice/rulings come into play.
You get far less misunderstandings this way, which leads to a better game.

So, I'm looking to run some Dungeon Crawl Classics (or whatever is suggested), but I'm limited on time.

Could anyone recommend a decent/fun campaign book? It's been maybe a couple years since I've DMed a game and I haven't really written anything new. I'm willing to consider anything I just want to get this game going as soon as possible and run it as far as I can for one last hurrah before I kick the bucket.

Wilderlands. It's with the rest of the JG stuff under Supplements in the Trove.
I think their d20 System stuff is in there too, which will save you some leg work.

Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde, or Wilderlands of the Magic Realm (bit of an unfortunate name, that)?

Those supplements are all for the same setting
1d4chan.org/wiki/Wilderlands_of_High_Fantasy
the 'main' book is City State of the Invincible Overlord.

Who laid out the numbering on that map? It makes no sense. At least have the two halves of Ghinor consecutive.

Order of publication.

Wow not even one good game in the whole lineage.

Isle of the Unknown: well designed hexcrawling sandbox or randomly generated mess with pretensions of coherence?

It involves Geoffrey (mess) and Raggi (pretensious) so both.
Generally if it's put out in association with LOTFP it's both in my experience.

Your chart is missing Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and DnD 5e should have arrows leading to it from 4e as well, since it borrowed a number of things from 4e's mechanics.