Why do so many systems use resource management as a primary mechanic? Why should a fighter only be able to do cool maneuvers twice in a fight before having to take a break? Why should a wizard only be allowed to cast a few spells before having to take an eight hour nap?
Is it because D&D did it, and everyone else forgot how to design games otherwise?
Is there a system out there that has good combat options and where wizards can fire off spells as often as they want without being immensely overpowered?
Zachary Thomas
Because resource management based combat can be fun? And without it, you have to design everything around the assumption it can be used all the time, which flattens the effects you can actually accommodate for, cutting out a lot of design space.
Outside of 'x per encounter' though, there are things like Exalted or Legends of the Wulin, with a universal combat resource like Essence or Chi that powers your stuff. More realism focused games can also make a flatter power level interesting, even if that isn't my cup of tea.
Although this part of your post is based on a misunderstanding- >Why should a fighter only be able to do cool maneuvers twice in a fight before having to take a break?
In the kind of systems that use this, it tends to be a more narrative kind of abstraction. It's not that the character themselves can only do so twice. It's that the player is given a degree of narrative control, letting them say 'my character has an opportunity to do this' twice per fight. Some people don't like that kind of narrativist mechanic, but I quite enjoy it. Then again, my preferred kind of combat system is more along the lines of 'generate awesome fight scenes' than 'simulate realistic combat'.
Owen Martin
Yeah, but it's difficult to generate an awesome fight scene in something that only lets you be awesome a couple of times a day.
Parker Perry
>And without it, you have to design everything around the assumption it can be used all the time, which flattens the effects you can actually accommodate for, cutting out a lot of design space. Isn't there an alternative in designing everything around the assumption it can be used all the time, and accepting that this means you're cranking up the power level somewhat?
Cooper Harris
Depends on how the system is designed. I really like how D&D 4e did it, although I know a lot of people don't. You always had plenty of Encounter powers, giving you a lot of discrete interesting options. People complain about only being able to use each one once, but that just gave each choice more meaning for me. It wasn't just a matter of spamming them, but making sure I didn't squander the opportunity each one presented, since I couldn't take it back afterwards.
Dailies are an extension of that. They're a big cost in resources, but the impact they had on a fight was awesome, and using one at the right moment is a feeling I really enjoy. It's far from perfect, of course, but in terms of tactical combat it's where I've had the most fun. My outright favourite combat system is Legends of the Wulin, but that has its own problems.
No matter where you set the bar of power, if you don't have some sort of resource management or restriction on the options available, they all have to be roughly similarly powerful. Resource management lets you adjust the cost of things, so you can balance more powerful options against weaker ones.
Owen Johnson
What fucking game are you playing that a fighter has any resource other than HP or hirelings? The whole point of the class is that they can do their cool fighting shit as long as they can survive. It doesn't always make for balanced gameplay when the wizard can just blow his load and have the same result, but the wizard can only blow his load so many times per day. If spells are gonna be powerful, then the wizard can't be allowed to just cum all over every single encounter he comes across because then he'll overshadow everyone else. You can make spells no longer resource-dependent, but then you'll have to make them weaker unless you just want everyone to be spellcasters; in which case what does it matter anyway?
Dominic Morgan
Opposed rolls with a fatigue resource.
Andrew Thompson
You are not being awesome, you are doing spike damage.
If you could do that every turn, it wouldnt be awesome. That would just be your normal damage rate.
Lets say we axe limited resource actions entirely. Would you rather deal 1d6 damage with your sword as normal and keep everything the same, or do your 5d6 super move every round and I multiply the hp of all of the enemies by 5 to maintain balance?
Bentley Sullivan
The idea that only magic users have a resource management mechanic is a D&Dism that rarely holds true outside of it.
Benjamin Cox
>le 4e generation thinks "awesome" occurs when you cash in your daily power for one extra damage die
Ryder Wilson
If you don't actually know how the system works, maybe start with that first rather than making yourself look foolish.
William Russell
>Being this retarded The fucking state of Veeky Forums
Sebastian Jones
Why not play something like Warhammer Fantasy, where it's exactly like you've described
Jason Miller
Nice bluff, but the PHB backs me up (p 92 et al.) Your method is easier than actually using your brain to solve dungeon problems, though, I'll give you that.
Brayden Bell
He said _without_ wizards being immensely overpowered.
Benjamin Thomas
But wizards get targeted first in combat by almost everyone in-setting, are mostly hated by the general populace, and die to two or three shots with a crossbow because wearing armor fucks up their casting.
Ryder Scott
...No it doesn't? You just cited the power list. If you actually need it, you'll see all kinds of interesting effects. Some are more boring than others, sure, but there's nothing wrong with the kind of bread and butter options if people don't like the look of any of the weirder ones.
Pic related is my go to example for why I love 4e's power system. It's not a good power, but in mid to low optimisation games that doesn't matter, and it's just so fucking stylish. When an ally goes down you charge headfirst into danger, the more risks you take the more powerful your heal is, alongside beating the fucker who took them down right in the face.
Saying dailies are 'one extra damage die' just makes you look like an idiot.
Daniel Hall
> Is there a system out there that has good combat options and where wizards can fire off spells as often as they want without being immensely overpowered? Any system that uses mana points, I guess? UESRPG has a lot of complications for a mage: mana pool is pretty limited, each level spell must be learned separately (so you can't cast lvl1 spell if you know lvl2 for it, they're virtually different spells), long rest doesn't restore that much mana. But hey, if you have enough mana potions, cast all you want. For warriors it has simple stuff like disarming, blinding, bashing enemies, etc. Blocking with shield, parrying and dodging are all distinctive. As long as you have AP, you can do all that stuff. You can toss away TES universe and just adapt it to whatever you want. Except maybe magic schools will be the same, but you can use their framework to come up with any spell.
Andrew Richardson
...
Jose Hernandez
Daily powers/resources are a good way to balance more powerful abilities so they aren't spammed.
Joshua Russell
2e did combat best. An RPG should not be like MTG where we are competing with system abilities.
Combat is mostly abstracted (minus poorly planned spellcasting) and this is fun.
In a lethal game, every swing is exciting. In an MMO on paper where death does not stick and everyone has a bajillion special moves, it is not.
In 2e every swing felt exciting.
Dylan Taylor
You're confusing playstyle preference with objective superiority. Don't worry, it seems to happen to a lot of people.
Christian Sanchez
There's a TES RPG?
Brayden Brown
"I like playing as a roll of toilet paper with no personality or ability to differentiate myself in combat, I erp with my friends for five hours then roll dice without any real ability to effect the outcome. SO EXCITING ALL THIS VISCERAL REALISTIC COMBAT AMIRITE?!"
Thomas Walker
also mentioning that there's always the fuckup table, where if a mage fucks up hard enough they get sucked into a demon rape portal
Zachary Cook
Actual D&D, i.e. not 3E and later, doesn't give fighters "cool maneuvers" but instead abstracts combat significantly and expects you to come up with those yourself and have the DM adjudicate.
Hudson Brooks
It's fan made and based on Dark Heresy.
Noah Gomez
>mother may I?
Jaxson Howard
A good system let's you do both. With both casters and martial classes, and lets you have it fit the system.
Lucas Parker
All games are ultimately resource based.
Your spells, your health, even your time. The point of a game is to manage your resources in the best way possible.
Joshua Turner
>et al. *et seq.
Ayden Scott
Interesting, I'll have to give it a look.
Robert Nelson
The Reign version of ORE does that pretty well. Caster types have no limit to their spells but they aren't game breaking and martial types can also use various manuvers and martial disiplines whenever they like which are also quite neat.
Joseph King
>I am retarded and have never seen BRP/Runequest Sure, ok
Ethan Moore
I don't think I'm retarded for not having heard of a system, but that's probably what a retarded person would say. What is BRP/Runequest's resource management like?
Xavier Roberts
Resource management can be super fun, especially with torches. >the entire team runs out of torches mid fight and has to fight in the dark >you end up being the only one still conscious, and loot a torch to find out you've fought off almost 30 kobolds >One teamate is missing, and has been captured by the rest of the kobolds. >simple exterminate mission has now turned into a rescue mission on a timer.
Yo fuck my DM but he sure knows how to make shit tense
Cooper Allen
Still better than "No you can't do that without this feat chain/spell/class ability" getting applied to every cool combat move you can think of.
Caleb Ross
Because they try to emulate video games, MMORPG mainly, where you can use different feats and they have cool down time. The problem is that the computer calculates everything in the background, making it enjoyable for the player. In TTRPG it’s up to the DM to do that, which is clumsier and more time consuming. Hence the “you can do this twice a day”.
Christopher Stewart
Shut the fuck up.
Ayden Scott
Being this much assblasted by the truth.
Parker Robinson
I like how FATE does it with tricks desu. Like you can do outrageous shit once per session, pretty strong stuff limited to a particular approach twice, or be strong in this approach in that situation all game long.
Julian Carter
It's because game designers are lazy and want everything to be a video game.
Chase Sanchez
>Video games invented mechanics that originally existed in tabletops
Okay
Kayden Smith
playfucking GURPS If you want realism. Or Anima if you want resource management that isn't full fucking retard gamistic ass gabble. Or IKRPG if you want to go full gamistic without being also 100% shit.
Christian Allen
But that's not the problem. The problem is that video games are able to more efficiently use game mechanics that rely on resources, as they have computers to do the work for you. It's astonishing that so many modern games are still using mechanics created in the 70s, and most of them haven't even bothered iterating since then.
Justin Sullivan
Retards
Nathan Carter
WFRP is kind of an outlier, considering that it's nearly a perfect system for gritty fantasy.
Ayden Adams
But you could have both. You can play mother may I and also have the ability to pull off a cool manuevre no ifs, whens or buts.
Lucas Bennett
But mother may I is goddamn lame, as evidenced by its lame name
Lincoln Gutierrez
*looks at DCC and Deed Dice*
Christopher Torres
*notices how limited they are* UwU what's this?
Wyatt Richardson
I honestly think the whole idea of 'If there's a discrete ability for it, nobody else can do it' is kinda dumb. Game designers should consider it and discuss it, but on the whole I don't think it holds true.
Having an ability lets you do it better and more consistently, but that doesn't mean you can't try. It might be harder, less effective or more costly, but at that point you're quibbling over details.
Anthony King
Then don't, and just use the special abilities on your sheet. That's the beauty of the system.
Jaxon Johnson
Because life is a complex resource management equation, and we have extreme trouble of conceiving any kind of scenario where it is not.
I mean shit, you need to keep your air supply topped up, get water constantly, keep your food supply topped up, make sure you have enough of all the rare vitamins, keep your money supply topped up, allocate computer processing power appropriately to browsers instead of spyware...
Literally all parts of life involve resource management.
Dylan Watson
But in real life if a guy is going to feint with a sword, he's not going to only be able to do that twice in a fight before he can't do it anymore.
Chase White
And that's irrelevant to how most combat systems using that kind of mechanic work?
Jordan Perez
yeah, you can faint as much as you want for your initiative in shadowrun.
Tyler Hall
Let the butthurt flow through you.
Michael Murphy
Really though, it's no wonder tabletop often emulates games. Games are able to do iterations on design exponentially faster than tabletop. Games have computers to handle more complex mechanics. Games have actual skill based gameplay occasionally.
Games as an industry have an incredibly solid mechanical foundation compared to tabletop, despite taking some inspiration from tabletop in the early days of gaming.
Carter Ramirez
My experience with 4e dailies was just everyone in the party combining their powers against a boss like the end of a shounen jump story.
Carter Garcia
It's even harder to generate an awesome fight scene when your character can spam their most powerful attack over and over.
Levi Howard
Sounds pretty awesome
Brayden Davis
I'd argue against what you're claiming. I'm fairly convinced that outside of D&D and its imitators the most common magic systems boil down in broad turns as "cast until you fail" In more mild examples, casters can keep going until they tire themselves out and their chances for success become too low to continue trying. They may even be able to risk hurting themselves in a similar manner to becoming fatigued. Shadowrun and many of savage world's casting systems work off this principal In the more extreme cases you have the already mentioned warhammer systems, where each cast is a gamble, and part of being a mage is mitigating the risk of accidentally causing a tpk
Now if you want a system where magic is less likely to be broken. Look for one that requires spellcasting rolls. I'd wager again, that outside of d&d and its imitators, that'd be most of them. Spells going off automatically only able to be partially/fully resisted some of the time is the main reason d&d casting gets imbalanced. Rather than balancing spells against the world, literally everything else has to be balanced around the instance in which they come into contact with the spell
Now one could say that's the same thing, just in reverse order. To some extent it is. However for the same reason it's easier to think about velocity as distance over a period of time, instead of the period of time to cover a distance, this order can be important. I mean just look at how many modules in d&d contain phrases that amount to "The dungeon has an anti-wizard forcefield, so they can't do anything that would break its central gimmick". Well that and you have to balance literally every aspect of a creature around contact with a wizard, where as "how hard are they to hit, and how many hits can they take" will get you 50% of the way there with a fighter. The other 50% being how likely it is to hit back, and how hard.
Jose Baker
The better system is to have generic stunt/action/fate dice or points or whatever that basically let you tell the GM, "Screw the usual rules. I'm going to be awesome now."