HEMA and your games!

Has anyone found getting actual experience in the way swords, shields etc. work changing the way they want to run games (systems, rule tweaks, settings)?

You could ask the same about games with guns / having military/other professional firearms training but large pieces of metal meant to hit people with seems more Veeky Forums.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=H8ugjAmKR3c
wiktenauer.com/wiki/Anonimo_Bolognese_(MSS_Ravenna_M-345/M-346)
gailtonatiu.deviantart.com
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

A lot of the HEMA and ARMA bros and broettes hide in the /SoS/ General which is on hiatus right now while we wait for kickstarter news.

Putting HEMA stuff into games, especially games not build for that, is pure, almost primal autism. When I see people who try to put their HEMA insight into fucking D&D I'm not sure if I should laugh, cry or just shake my head in disbelieve.

So SoS is finally dead and we are finally free from that never-ending general?
Should I go for champagne?

Not exactly tabletop related, but it amused me how similar HEMA is to fighting game fundamentals.

As a sport, it's good inspiration for competitive games. Could be used for RPG systems, but I felt it detracts from the experience if your character can only be as good at reading your opponent as you are; I feel it is better to abstract that layer.

Shit like how armour works in most systems bothers the fuck out of me, but some houserules and giving each combat action well informed descriptions that aren't retards hitting eachother with sticks back and forth isn't too awful usually. Any halfway modern firearms or military shit though? I try to avoid any game with that like the plague because most people don't know dick about modern combat and military life. This goes double for those /k/-esque wannabe fuckers that just adamantly think they do.

Yep, knock yourself out

Not seeing what you mean. Tt shouldn't be an argument for game design, but what exactly is wrong with relating the two?

just add it in flavor of combat not the crunch

HEMA is a gateway to LARPing. Then you get too old and busy to LARP and get into tabletop.

>HEMA
>/SoS/
Perfect example of that that system is convoluted shit.

I don't think the complexities of fencing and the "silent knowledge" that is a large part of being good at it translate terribly well into RPG systems. At least none I've seen so far. They seldom do very well in video game format either. So I'd rather see a combat system be made to be in itself good and playable, with things like HEMA experience merely being used to check that the conclusions the system points to aren't all too ridiculous.

Yea, this user is right. In one of my games there is a guy that likes to “correct” others that are describing combat actions. I don’t care about hema. Medieval style combat is lame, I’m in this for the story and fantasy. Nobody cares about fedora larpists. Hema people should keep it in their closets, and not bother the sane with their prowess in hitting each other with their foam and duct taped sticks, or the one time they “beat” somebody.

It's made me loathe D&D's over-abstraction of combat. You're getting rid of all the fun parts!
My group plays d100 almost exclusively now.

>Medieval style combat is lame
Imagine being this much of a fatass plebian

that shield is a weapon

pic related annoys the shit out of, yes you had in some cases leather that were treated really well and ontop from hippos and elephants being rather powerful, but most of the time the cheaper padded armor would just be a better pick

HEMA fag here. About the most I would do is change the names of weapons to the more historically* correct names. RPG should be simple. No one wants to sit around for 5 minutes combat turns.

*historical weapon names are also mostly bullshit.

There's a very debatable line between fast and fun, and complex and deep.
RPGs usually fall within fast and fun, while some rarer games do complex and deep.

Different flavors.

>No one wants to sit around for 5 minutes combat turns
I'm with you here. If you use interactive combat system then encourage players to act fast, not sit there and weigh down every possible action and consequences for 10 minutes. Overthinking kills the fun.

>try to put their HEMA insight into fucking D&D

>playing fucking D&D

>I'm not sure if I should laugh, cry or just shake my head in disbelieve
Roll your eyes and grunt loudly

I thought you always put armor on top of padding anyway?

How the games run? No. Never.

How I describe actions? Yes.

I kind of stoped believing in HEMA stuff. After how much I seen them get their asses handed to themselves via HMB fighters who even beat them at their own game.

>After how much I seen them get their asses handed to themselves via HMB fighters who even beat them at their own game.

For the sake of argument, let's assume some HEMA practitioners do practice techniques which are reasonably close to actual historical techniques.

HMB jocks beating up history nerds doesn't necessarily discredit the historical research itself, ASSUMING the research has any merit.

Why do their swords have like chode extensions right off the crossguard?

Face it, HEMA guys are the karate/tkd guys of the fencing world.

They cannot do jack vs Muay Thai, Boxxingm Sanshou, ect,

What are the differences in technique between HEMA and HMB?

Because if the game is not build with realism in mind or/and is intentionally abstract, trying to put into it "realism" is going to fail. If you are playing a game about. Meanwhile, games designed for "realistic" combat laugh at HEMA for being too abstract and not realistic enough for proper simulation.

I agree with this man

>games designed for "realistic" combat
Are there any? Do we have Phoenix Command for this?

I wouldn't nitpick, but I won't buy swords going through armour or similar bullshit.

HMB is a full contact sport in armor
HEMA is practicing the techniques in historical manuals

GURPS does a lot to satisfy HEMAfags when using things like Martial Arts and Technical Grappling, also /k/ with Tactical Shooting and Gun-Fu

I've done a decent amount of studying and practicing different weapon styles and unless I'm playing a game like Riddle of Steel, I don't want to see the two mixing.

HMB is a bunch of retards beating on each other. It might as well be an SCA "combat". They use dulled, lightweight weapons paired with extra layers of armor to deal with all the blunt force. Any sense of historical study or use of the techniques that old fencing masters used goes out the window and, as you can see below, they just swing at each other until somebody gets tired and falls over. There's no real fear of your opponents weapon, there's no regard for historical study or technique. This user probably has no legit comparisons of HEMA and HMB practitioners to back up his statement. This user's comparison to actual martial arts... well, I'll let you watch this video and decide: youtube.com/watch?v=H8ugjAmKR3c

Don't lose the plot folks - none of us are medieval warriors and your flavor or LARPing isn't any better than anyone else's. I'm sure HMB is a great work-out, but it has no more application to real combat than swinging a foam sword and throwing lightning bolts at people.

for me larping was the gateway for HEMA

The video you provided only shows the group combat division of HMB called Bohurt. It emulates the chaos of all-out open warfare.

Another divison of HMB is one-on-one duels named Profight. In this form there are multiple categories of weapon and armour combinations. The most obvious differences with HEMA are that they use historical armour and don't pause the fight after one combatant scores a hit.

This thread popping up just after Swordfish tournament... I'm on to you.

None of us like the crunch that's required to make combat "real".

>The most obvious differences with HEMA are that they use historical armour and don't pause the fight after one combatant scores a hit

Thus no fear of your opponent's weapon, it's so hard replicate armoured techniques without killing each other because those would involve pinning and shoving objects into people. Just because HEMA practises un-armoured combat in no way renders it invalid, un-armoured combat happened.

Hey, that's just an example. Are you at least aware D&D share of both market and player base is twice as big as another 5 titles combined? The game, despite being pure shit, is a juggernaut, for bad or worse (not gonna say "for better").
And yet there are HEMAfags eager to put "realism" in d fucking 20. On regular fucking basis.

Which is in fact the main reason why people usually laugh at them and their obsession

I know some HEMA guys and gals who study Fiore and invested in period accurate armour to practice poleaxe and the fighting in armour sections of Fiore's work

>The most obvious differences with HEMA are that they use historical armour and don't pause the fight after one combatant scores a hit.
That and most of the time HMB does not allow stabbing but all for grappling, while in a lot of HEMA tournaments stabbing is part of the deal grappling is either not allowed or very limited

A HEMAfag showed up at my larp yesterday and we had a pretty good time up until he walked into the chinese buffet after with a Ka-Bar strapped to his pocket.

All the other ones I've talked to are insufferable trans whiners who think they could get away with doing that shit in public.

if the HMB dudes wanted to be real, couldn't they use plastic daggers?

Did song of swords ever come out.

I’m supposed to get a pdf or something g from the Kickstarter.

Dont ever use it for rules, but I check out some videos here and there use them as inspiration for how to describe/roleplay during combat.

I've used it to improve my bard in combat

It was funded in like 38 hours and is getting published in February probably, there is a thread up right now if you're curious.

I should probably have linked to it like someone who isn't a dickhead.

They're technically not using swords; they're federschwert (practice swords used for longsword training). The lobes are there to help simulate the balance of a real sword blade.

Montante have better chodes

keep in mind that montantes doesn't have "chodes" all the time

yes but theirs are always better

Read Fritz Lieber
He was a fencer and worked that into his action scenes really frequently

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Sorry for the late reply was literally at my HEMA class.

Thank you very much.

It's hand protection. A sword sliding down the blade with hit those before the cross guard. It's hard to explain in writing but this helps prevent the blades from hitting the opponents fingers.

They're really good and if they fit nicely in scabbards all swords would have had them I'm sure.

Getting real training to make sure the rules make sense is actually what motivates me a lot. I've been studying melee combat (as in anything related to fighting) and some modern combat (went to the Finnish army for a year, good amount of motivation stirring from the want to know modern combat's dynamics) for years. HEMA and reenactment has been very helpful giving insight into medieval combat and its dynamics. Of modern combat I know I still don't know enough to write or judge rules concerning it, but I'd say I know enough about medieval combat. However I don't like too simulationist systems and prefer well flowing gameplay over mechanics - but they have to make sense.
Mythras is probably my favourite system so far in terms of combat.

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The Secret Sword Swallower technique!

>implying sos can die
It is literally already back up. I have children younger than the /sos/ threads.

>mfw I forget to wear my cod piece allowing my opponent the opportunity to use the secret technique so that I'm required to concede the fight

>better stab myself through the head!

>to intelligent to win

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>In this form there are multiple categories of weapon and armour combinations.

But all forms of HMB involve the fighters just literally bashing each other into submission using brute force without any attention paid to conservation of strength or efficiency.

You sound like a wing chum guy saying boxxing is just brute force and requires no technique. Go to a hmb club and see what they do in training then judge em. Just because it is not your style does not mean it is pure savagery. Jeeze it does seem like hmb vs hema is the mirror of mms vs traditionalists.

You're right that it limits the techniques which are allowed. All weapon techniques that are used are mostly the same though. While grappling is a big part of HMB clinches hardly happen in duels since they won't give you any points. This all does not so much as remove the fear of the weapon but rather transfers it to every part of your oponent. By no means am I trying to invalidate HEMA, but I am giving additional information to counterbalance your statements however. I am interested in both sports and believe both have their merits.

Sure it might still seem raw, but your remarks are inaccurate. In profights your mission is to recieve the most points in stead of getting your opponent on the floor.

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I have tons of HEMA experience, and I keep it as far from the table as possible. Real HEMA is too far removed from modern understanding to actually be represented in a boardgame thats not just about fighting dudes. Go play a videogame.

Whacky Talhoffer's illustrations...

I know right. Old illustrations are just so loveable and quirky, especialy the weird ones.

But, you forget its not TEH DEADLY.

That's quite true, just go for Bohurt if you want that.

>They cannot do jack vs Muay Thai, Boxxingm Sanshou, ect,
>M- muh Muay Thai

Muay Thai is an outdated form of kickboxing that's going away due to it's shitty training dogma, lack of footwork and generally retarded philosophy. Just say Kickboxing, you fucking cuck.

Maybe you should read the Muay Thai, Boxxing and Sanshou ect.

>Hey guys, let's make the clinch an important part of our game and then do no strength training
>Wh- why are dutch kickboxers demolishing us every time we're fighting them? ;_;
>H- how come w- we never win a K-1 Grand Prix?

Talhoffer's are especially weird because the style is changing all the time, people are depicted differently in two illustrations of the same action, the weapons changed, etc.

For instance, in this image (), both fighters are supposed to be in armor, but I guess the author went "oh well armor are a pain to do and I prefer to draw fancy clothes" and voilà!
Plus the fact that there isn't much text in most of the Talhoffer manuals (that I have seen anyway)...

We use wooden ones.

Those fuckers hurt like hell.

You learn fast.

What is this from?

Korea.

>Meanwhile, games designed for "realistic" combat laugh at HEMA for being too abstract and not realistic enough for proper simulation.
are you fucking serious?

>you're ddoing low-fantasy HEMA-style LARP? pfffffff, my game system is like a hundred times more realistic
that what these people sound like perchance?

which historical manuals talk about armored gauntlets?

giacomo di grassi talks about cloak and rapier but gauntlets would not be like a cloak at all

Like, armored gauntlet out of armor?
The Anonimo Bolognese apparently has some stuff on sword and a "grabbing gauntlet", but that's pretty much the only source of the sort apparently.

wiktenauer.com/wiki/Anonimo_Bolognese_(MSS_Ravenna_M-345/M-346)

>sidesword and gauntlet
thanks I will want to give this a read as it sounds like it might be what I am looking for

I suppose it probably wasn't too common as people would not have just been walking around with an armored gauntlet

Note that this source is only being translated and worked on since very recently. It's not fully translated, you might have some luck checking Ilkka Hartikainen's work on it. Apparently, it's the most extensive Bolognese source we have, being much bigger than even Marozzo's.

It seems to be early 16th century, with still a good deal of duelling material, so it's safe to imagine that this sword and gauntlet is very much a duelling thing.

I lost the sauce a long time ago, sorry.
Though I do Jane quite a bit of their work

Sword and buckler is anime

I found that some basic idea about small unit tactics naturally come out in players and is necessary.

Like I had a dm that loved that shit and read army manuals for fun. Made only war 40k interesting for rp, but really punishing. His enemies were all hyper intelligent and could rain shit on us without us being able to see them because we didn't do something perfect or don't even have the gear to do anything but what we are doing.

On the other hand when you have space marine cracking up on a door, throwing a flash bang in and shitting on everyone in a room in a round, it feels pretty good.

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That is a mighty chip off of your shoulder.

gailtonatiu.deviantart.com

Thanks

No but i've seen a lot of people thinking that doing HEMA allows them to be unsufferable twats because "muh historical realism" and "swords don't work that way"

I wonder if people who really get into this whole wizardy/wiccan shit IRL then complain that it's unrealistic in game.

ask /x/

I bet actual hackers must be insufferable to pay shadowrun with