Destiny Lore thread

...was that motherfucker a cabal spy this whole time

I would unironically play a Destiny tabletop RPG, but man do both video games have serious flaws.

The flaws are a result of the game's attempt to be an MMO-like experience, instead of a campaign driven shooter with online multiplayer as a seperate entity.

The greatest flaw of both Destiny 1 and 2 can be summarized into a single phrase: Games as a Service.

Activision needs to sell season passes, and they want to show off player stats to their shareholders to prove it's worth their money, so they drip-feed content beyond a reasonable limit. It taints everything from the way loot works to the way the story is presented. The core gameplay of Destiny is fun, the core
artistic design is attractive and the core setting is incredibly interesting. It's just that they felt the need to build literally everything else on top of that out of paper-mache and microtransactions.

Destiny lore? my kindo' thread!

What's up with eris morn? what happened to her after the attack of ghaul over the last city?

Also, I'm starting to believe that she is works for savathun, it makes sense!

Eris Morn left before the attack even happened, it's detailed in the D1 Grimoire Cards.

She is currently hunting the other Hive gods, as she believes (correctly) that Oryx was not the only leader of the Hive/Taken, which we know from the Books of Sorrow is true.

Destiny 2 makes me feel like one of those Grognards who keeps clinging to DnD 3.5.

I want to like D2, I really do, but it feels like the lore is just non-existant and the gameplay gets stale super fast because of how much abilities have been nerfed for PvP.

Please help me like Destiny again.

I miss the different Fallen Houses actually mattering...

Look bruh, after seeing all the salt on the destiny forum on reddit about this I feel there is no hope for the likes of you. It's funny how there was concern D2 would just be D1.5 but then you have people going on how they miss D1 and now how it's some diamond in the rough all of a sudden.

Frankly, you either think it's okay or it's not. I'm not going to tell you to love it.

That said, the houses are dead and the Eliksni are eternally cucked unless Malcom Variks has a plan in place.

>Everyone wanted D2 to be BETTER than D1 and was concerned it wasn't going to be.
>Somehow it ended up substantially WORSE.
>"I don't understand why people are upset!"

Ugh... next DLC is all about the Vex too. I mean, I loved the Vault of Glass and everything, but the Vex as a faction are like the least interesting group in game. Oryx and the Hive may have been edgelords, but at their motivation was more understandable than typical cop-out inscrutable machine logic.

There's actively less story in D2 than there was in D1 and D1 didn't have any story. It's fucking bananas how they managed to gut the already almost nonexistent lore.

They are also proving to be more than that? The mission where your ghost is tagged as a Vex and asks the network on Nessus questions is kind of revealing without telling anything. What is the first program? To what extent do the various minds discuss things and can it get things wrong? Is it truly a hive mind mind entity?

>"boohoo I can't choose different skill trees so I can make mind exactly the same as the top tier ones anyway!"

>"boohoo I can't hangout and snipe and rocket launcher the boss to death!"

>"booohoo I spent 50 hours on day one grinding an watching videos on how to grind everything super fast. Where's the content bungo!?"

Lets be honest, we're never gonna get any of those questions answered and everything on Nessus was basically teaser-bait for the Osiris DLC. Nothing like promoting content that hasn't even released yet when your base content is woefully flawed and incomplete.

Literally none of that has to do with the game's lore and story, which is the main topic of this thread and the main thing everyone is complaining about. Projecting much?

TFW I'm only Light Level 271 and can't even be arsed to watch those supposed videos and grind it higher because the game just isn't interesting like D1 was.

Then again I hopped into D1 after all the DLCs dropped. Plus reading the Grimoire really got my noggin joggin, but that doesn't exist anymore.

Has a Guardian ever become Taken?

I don't know the lore too well, or play the game, but I hope this thread and all it's Anons have fun.

No, but awoken have somehow produce "taken" looking armour

In the lore? There are no examples of anyone blessed with the Light having been Taken. It may be impossible (although we have no proof that this is the case either).

That being said, both the Vex and SIVA have managed to infect and control Guardians to some degree... however none of the infected Iron Lords had Light powers anymore, and we've never fought any form of Vex with Light abilities.

As the Speaker and Ikora say in D2, the Light can't really be stolen, it has to be "given", and so far any guardians that stop being Guardians seem to lose theirs.

Eris lost her ghost, do we know if she still has her Light? I know she's sorta Hive-y, but I didn't get to play D1 so I've no idea.

Not that it's directly related, but also let it not be said that still having Light means you can't be an asshole, either.

Of course, before there was a City, some of the original Guardians (called Risen back then) were warlords and Tyrants, but they were still 100% Human or a Human-offshoot (Awoken/Exo).

No non-human race has managed to gain the power of the light, either through infecting a Light user or otherwise. Ghaul tried and was destroyed by it.

That being said, the Hive CAN "eat" the Light, although this doesn't seem to confer any actual Light powers to them.

Ghaul successfully forced the Light into him with his injections, the Traveller killed him when it woke up.

As far as non-Humans not wielding the Light, well, we don't see that in-game because quite simply we aren't non-Humans. Remember that the Traveller has blessed many different star systems and races, including then Eliksni at one point. What seems to set us apart specifically for this power though is that for the first time that Traveller was critically wounded, prompting an emergency action (the creation of Ghosts to pass on Light). The Eliskni know of the Light and knew of its power long before, as they were blessed with the same "Golden Age" we were, and presumably all of the other previous benefactors were as well.

You don't lose your Light when you stray from the path and thanks to the new DLC we have proof of that.
For extreme examples: Osiris and Toland, starting with Toland. Toldan the Shattered strayed from the Light probably further than anybody since Dredgen Yor himself. Toland intentionally and knowingly lead the first Crota fireteam into traps and ambushes so they would be killed, all so he could learn more about shriekers. He is directly responsible for the deaths of multiple Guardians and Ghosts, and he most certainly no longer walks the path of the Light. Toland wanted to be a Hive god, and so far evidence in-game says he succeeded.
Osiris is a slightly less extreme example but he too no longer follows the Traveller*. Now the new DLC could retcon all of this, but in the grimoire cards we see Osiris's rise and fall. Osiris is one of only three Guardians to ever be banned from the Tower (the other two being Fenchurch Everis and Toland), for one simple reason: Osiris questioned the Traveller. On top of his creepy experiments with the Vex and their radiolaria, Osiris voiced his disbelief of the Traveller out loud and to the Speaker himself. Osiris doesn't believe the Traveller is inherently good and benevolent, and that when Ghosts are picking "the right Guardian" to resurrect, they are looking specifically for people who will trust blindly without questioning, fanatics who can be brainwashed and controlled.
So its safe to assume Osiris no longer considers himself a follower of the Traveller.
But again, the new DLC could retcon all of that.

I always felt like the Traveller didn't really specifically kill Ghual deliberately, more that the Traveller waking up intensified the Light he had stolen to a level where it became too much to control and literally disintegrated him a consequence.

The Nessus Vex are fascinating - the vex are basically fucking around just trying to understand everything, the way anything they do may either be an elaborate attempt to kill you or they might be expecting you to slaughter wave after wave of their units as part of a "test" whose goal is inscrutable, also their weird connection to the Exo and Cayde

The house of dusk has some connection to the reef awakened, but they're also an emergency measure to handle the massive loss of stuff from SIVA and Oryx's butt cannon.

The dusk fallen are a cool "mutually respectable and comprehensible enemy" that the series kinda lacked, with all the different houses you had this mess of "ooo we're totally mysterious and have complex motives" nah, house of dusk just trying to survive even if that means squirting cabal juice into our ether and jury rigging vex tech. Pretty neat and cool group imho.

The Traveller woke up as a direct response to Ghaul putting a bane mask on her and his campaign against her chosen planet. Specifically, she wakes up right as he resurrects as Ghaul Blanco, and his last words and the directing of the shot are intentional to show that the Traveller is focused on him at that second. The Traveller overloaded him with Light in an intentional act.

I always chalked Ghaul's words up to his own obsession and Hubris. Part of me thinks it's thematically better if Ghaul was such an insignificant speck that the Traveller never DID actually notice him.

I feel like the Traveller, who at least seems to aim to be benevolent, would distinguish itself by actually noticing the little guy every now and again.

Especially if that little guy is a shit who has clamped onto your veritable teat of light and started sucking - teeth and all.

So with the Traveller seemingly awake and the speaker dead, do you think she'll actually try and give us some direction, or do you think it'll just be the same friendly neighborhood sky orb just hanging out over the city?

You know the answer to that user
Bungie would never be so proactive

The Grimoire cards specifically says the Traveller doesn't seek worship or even recognition from those it helps those. It flies around and seeds life, but I was always under the impression that most of the advances in technology and such that happened on the worlds it visited were simply due to the species studying the effects of the things it did. Perhaps even a "passive" result of being exposed to a healthy Traveller's light.

In the Earth's Golden Age there is absolutely zero evidence that it actually communicated with anyone or gave the slightest fuck about intelligent life. It's been known to abandon intelligent life to horrible fates before, as it did multiple times in the Books of Sorrow and the Eliksni's history.

Hell, the evidence says the Traveller only made the Ghosts and chose Humanity as it's "protectors" not because of any kind of altruism or us being an amazing species, but because it was literally forced into that position and it was a choice between "work with whatever is available" or die.

>boo hoo, the game that's only been out for three months has less content than the game that had three years worth of expansions! Bungo, where's my content?
>Waa, the faction that hasn't had an expansion focussed on them yet has less lore than the ones that have! I don't want an expansion to focus on them!

Jesus, what's wrong with you people?

The thing is that Ghaul did return from death almost like he had an oversoul but in our reality rather than in one of the hive god's weird domains - I could see the reaction by the traveller being literally "oh shit, an oversoul is near and probably about to eat me, better do something and see what's happening... wait, where'd it go?"

Yeah, you'd think three years of improvement would make their next project better instead of a step back to square zero (when even D1 started at square one).

So is there any explanation for what the Leviathan of the raid actual is and how the Canal got it? I did the Adventure on Nessus about the signal and got all excited to just start the raid and watch the opening cutscene only to see my Guardian just kinda show up and start getting ranted at.

I looked at Ishtar Collective for Leviathan and it only turned up bits of the Book of Sorrows, which talks about there being a Leviathan that the siblings talk to who tells them not to deal with the Wurms and then they do anyway.

Also, are the Ahramkara Worm God's? They make deals with "too high a cost" and apparently either followed the Traveler to Sol or we're created by it or something.

Boohoo, the game's been out for 3 months and the gameplay is way worse because it was balanced around PvP which nobody gives a fuck about except tryhard e-sports fags who should really be playing Overwatch or League of Toxic-Waste instead.

Boohoo, all the cool lore from the first game got retconned into oblivion or completely ignored.

Boohoo the main campaign was somehow worse than a Halo game and the expansion coming next somehow deals with an even MORE boring factions.

Jesus, what's wrong with you Bungo defense drones. Liking the game is one thing, but refusing to acknowledge very obvious faults with the execution of this game is pure delusion.

Yea, agreed it doesn't help Activision that the player base is dying on both games. The only way we can show Activision that this is not how they should make games though is with tough love by not playing, and not buying the bull.

Did you even play D1, year 1? There was far, far less lore available, even after both Dark Below and House of Wolves released. Vanilla D1 had no story arc, no characters, nothing to explain what you're doing or why you're doing this.

I don't think the game ever explicitly says the Ahamkara are the Worms but the shared language kind of gives it away... oh user mine.

>retconned into oblivion or completely ignored
what retcons? and when you say ignored, do you mean all the lore in the grimoire cards that never made it into D1 either?

I mean characters acting like the whole SIVA crisis never happened, most of the old locations not being visitable in any form or even mentioned, the Fallen Houses being completely retconned into this uber house without anyone noticing, the Reef not showing up at all during the Cabal invasion.

Theres so much in the lore that feels completely ignored because it would have been inconvenient for Bungo's "shit villain does a really simple thing nobody else ever thought to try before" plotline that only worked because authors-convenience and extreme amounts of asspull.

Ok, so in regards to lore with the Ahamkara, do you think they might have deeper roots with the Traveler and might be the neutral party between the Light and Dark? That's my assumption on the issue, obviously they are powerful and know of the Light so would it be that far fetched to view them as a middle ground?

>Destiny
>lore

Have a good day, user

The Leviathan itself is probably just another macro scale creation of the Cabal. Bear in mind this is a race that created the Almighty and can create bases like Firebse Hades inside of a month so something like the Leviathan doesn't seem out of their league.

That said, it's assumed that the Emperor may have had some connection with the Amhamkara because in the Emperor's invitation he explains when he was overthrown that his daughter took the ahamkara bones he would have used to stop the whole thing.

And, for what it's worth, it's highly probably that the Worm Gods of the Hive are, in fact, Ahamkara themselves because when the Hive fight the Harmony they say that only they can have their gods and hate the Harmony's "Wish Dragons"

>the Fallen Houses being completely retconned into this uber house without anyone noticing,

No one noticing except the Grimoire from the end of D1 talking about how the Towers scouts have been reporting that all the Fallen have abandoned the Cosmodrome and left their house banners behind, Devrim talking about how the Fallen are using new banners, and sceveral references in Adventure dialog about how nobody is sure what's going on with the Fallen leadership right now?

I mean, I'll give you SIVA, but the Fallen thing is pretty well covered and is clearly intended to be expanded on later.

Speculation:

I think Eris Morn is going to find Teox at some point when the eventual Hive focused Expansion drops.

I need a quick rundown on Saint-14

>her
>she

Development for D2 started before Taken King even released. By the time Year 3 came around with Rise of Iron and all that good stuff D2 had already been in development for a year.

The Leviathan is Calus's pleasure yacht that he uses to eat worlds that displease him. Its the giant space catfish from the concept art.
Also as to whether the Ahamkara are worms or not: "maybe."
Its a big point of contention among the loremasters.
>I mean characters acting like the whole SIVA crisis never happened
Failsafe mentions SIVA in her idle dialogue and other characters mention the SIVA crisis as well. Also see above: D2 was well past the "change shit up" stage by the time RoI came out.
>the Fallen Houses being completely retconned into this uber house without anyone noticing
Read the Grimoire cards you dumb fuck. There are several grimoire cards in Destiny 1 that show the Tower was monitoring a "mass exodus" of Fallen from the Cosmodrone and then their later unity under the "House of Dusk". The Reef was also implied to be involved in this: Its implied that Prince Uldren leads the House of Dusk.

An Exo Titan who was famous for having head-butted a Captain or Kell to death. Was cool with the speaker to the point that the speaker referred to him as a son. Was told to go find Osiris and has been missing since.

She's a girl, user

I never really thought the SIVA crisis had the same level of consequences as the Taken War; it felt like it was fairly contained, and only really noteworthy due to the history with Iron Lords.
Fair point about not being able to go to old locations, that does feel like a step down from D1. There are mentions of Cabal troop movements on Mars and other things affecting the other locations though.
Fallen houses merging into one isn't so much a retcon as a plot development; I will concede that it could have been announced with more fanfare to draw it into attention. It's hardly out of the blue though; the houses coming together has been foreshadowed since Year 1.
I kind of got the impression that the Reef is pretty much spent militaristically after the Wolf Rebellion and the Battle of Saturn. I could be wrong though, I just can't think of a better explanation.

There's a Grimoire Card that refers to the Traveller as "The Gardener" or something and calls her female, but I think it's some kind of trippy dream or something and not necessary 100% reliable.

Siva hasn't been forgotten. The Replication chamber was destroyed in the first game and presumable the Devil Splicers have all been killed off. The only source of Siva left is probably with failsafe because the Exodus ships were carrying it with them when they intended to colonize a new world. It's just not brought up because it's not immediately relevent

As for the Fallen the AoT grimoire cards specifically state that patrols have found old hiding spots of the Fallen abandonded, their old hous banners and colors burnt and the fact that Uldrin may have taken over the House of Kings and possibly unified all of the fallen under a new house

>IT is alone and IT is strong and IT won. Even over the gardener and she held power beyond me but the gardener did not shrug and make herself alone. IT always wins.

What’s the deal with Exo? What are they?

I’ve played the same Exo through D1 and D2 and I don’t even know what he is.

During the Golden Age a group of scientist discovered the Vex and the fact that they were simulating our reality and even met their simulated counter parts.

They made a machine to help them explore the vex simulations but it was dangerous to regular humans so they created Exos to help do that.

There is speculation that Stranger is Mia Sunderesh who was one of the scientist working on this project.

Also, she and the work involved with studying the vex simulations would eventually form the FWC

They have swords in D2.

D1 didn't have swords until the taken king DLC.

The leviathan is a ship made by the cabal, presumably just prior to the red legion ousting the emperor. There's I think reference somewhere though I'm fucked if I remember where, that the ship is based on some large creature from the cabal homeplanet - basically there's these big sand worm type things that wander around and eat anything in their path, including cities.

The Reef is mostly dead - after the taken king the queen of the reef is MIA, the fallen houses were fucked by the SIVA thing even if they hadn't lost a lot of ketches to Oryx - after the red legion take the city, that means even the house of judgement is now basically on the run, and that's rendered the SIVA crisis moot - similarly, the mercury and mars vex were fucked so hard that the shiny silver Nessus Vex are basically all you see in the game rather than the old bronze vex (who only show up as broken goblin bits when you're on the almighty)

We're not entirely sure. There's definitely a connection with Clovis Bray, as hinted in Cayde's Journal. They were probably built as soldiers, since there are still active Exo Legions out in the solar system, and they normally have violent dreams.
Exo can be rebooted, wiping their memories. the number appended after their name is how many reboots they've had (e.g. Cayde-6, Banshee-44). Too many reboots can affect an Exo's memory, causing difficulty with long and short term recall, even between reboots. it may have a degrading effect on their personality as well, although that may just be how Banshee has always been.

So what exactly are the Nine? Did D2 have any hints that pointed towards a possible conclusive answer?

So, yet again, publisher fucked over developer because it was a 'tentpole' project.
History of gaming ever since it became big business.

given that the ahamkara showed up as a result of the golden age and terroforming by the traveller I have this headcanon that the traveller kinda produces "shadows", like the worms but also the ahamkara.

wait, who's clovis bray? he's mentioned as the user who wiped some data from a memory server in that warmind vault on io you go into during the main campaign of D2 (if you find the invstigate prompt in the dark corner of a dark room in the warmind vault).

Clovis Bray was a Golden Age scientist, engineer and entrepreneur. He founded the Clovis Bray corporation, and was instrumental in the development of many Golden Age technologies, including SIVA.

It's all a big wobbly mystery. there's a whole grimoire card devoted to various theories as to what they might be.
HOWEVER, with the Trials of the Nine event, we have a few more clues. In particular, the lore tab for The Long Walk (ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-long-walk) seems to imply that the Nine are Ghosts who have lost their Guardians...

My theory in D1 was Ahamkara (Space Dragons)

My theory in D2 is they might be those evil pyramids, since your weird thanatonaut vision shows nine pyramids falling into the sea.

So...are the Vex just using people like Exodus Black's Captain and Praedyth to lure us into deathtraps, or are they trying to communicate in their weird, inscrutable way.

I really want one of the races to pull at least a partial Sangheili, and join our side against the Darkness. In D1, and even now, I expect it to be the Fallen, but wouldn't it be neat if a contingent of the Vex splintered off to join us, seeing it as the "most logical" path?

I just really really want to eventually reach a point where we can make guardians of other races.

Exos seem to be entirely made up of humans who have had their minds transferred to machines, where as frames are just relatively rudimentary AIs. I don't think the city is capable of making fully sapient AIs like Failsafe anymore. Frames only approach human intelligence if they're personally upgraded and left without memory wipes for a long time.

Something kinda spooky though, Exos also get memory wipes. The number after their name appears to indicate the number of wipes they've had. Banshee 44 has memory problems because he's been rebooted 44 times.

It's from the perspective of Rasputin.

The Vex were using the captain to test emotional warfare. They wanted to weaponize grief.

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that there'll ever be Guardians of other races in game for both technical reasons and because the Traveller doesn't seem to be interested in making more Ghosts.

It's more that they were some of the Vex's first contact with humanity, so they tried to study and copy and make more Vex out of what they could. In Praedyth's case, he seems to have gotten himself caught and the Vex used him to use you to deal with Taken in the Vault of Glass. Destiny 2 seems to imply that this is because of the Taken Vex wandering around making more Taken Vex ad infinitum.

I'm gonna assume if Ras thinks the Traveller is a girl, he has a reason for it. Not that I think gender really matters to a giant space ball. I don't think the Traveller has a luminous space vag or dick, nor that it'd be relevant.

It's also implying that Rasputin is beginning to embrace the Sword-Logic of the Hive, or at least some strong leaning towards the Darkness.

The Leviathan was built just before Ghaul kicked out Calus. It's made in the image of a giant creature from the Cabal homeworld. When Ghaul kicked Calus out because Calus just wanted to spend all day drinking nectar and not conquering he couldn't really justify executing him because the people still liked him. So Ghaul exiled Calus in the Leviathan and said he could never come back. After an indeterminate amount of time adrift, Calus comes across something (probably the Darkness) that tells him to nut up and go conquer again. Calus goes around collecting Cabal that are loyal to him and other races that the Cabal had previous conquered. Then, after following the Red Legion, he shows up in the Solar system to discover that you've already killed Ghaul. He invites you unto the Leviathan as a test and to try and make you join him. You beat his test but don't join him, obviously, and then leave because Calus is actually a hundred robots and you don't have time to kill him. At the same time, Calus isn't particularly interested in doing anything other than loafting about. So the raid basically ends with a stand still.

I assume the gendering is just because the Traveller creates and tends life, whereas the Darkness destroys it. Rasputin is a he, Traveller is a she, and Darkness is an it.

So, IIRC Calus uses some terminology that makes it seem like he's got some connection to the Worms/Ahamkara, and when full-grown the wish-dragons are supposed to have teeth the size of continents.

What's the over/under that the Leviathan is related to them?

o thread mine

So any shit can have its LORE thread here?

Well if you try to talk about anything but shooting on Veeky Forums you'll go mad so yea, why not?

Ok, will take into consideration.

Btw, How much is known about The Reef's fighting ability? I know in 1 they had those guard with spears and handcannons as well as Fallen Vandals in their service, but what else?

If it's in the genuine context of "How can we make this game Veeky Forums?" I don't see why not.

Why, is this thread taking up one of your "Stat me, Veeky Forums!" slots?

The Reef had a considerable fighting force that was primarily fleet based. They have Paladins who are not only the bodyguards of the Queen herself but are military commanders as well. Then you have the Techyons, Tech Witches who have the ability to control special weapons called Harbingers that are essentially massive balls of living energy that wreck shit. They also had a weapon that they used to throw a moon at the House of Wolves.

Assuming you had an interested group, what system do you think would work the best for Destiny?

I honestly think the more interesting stories for a PnP would be not to make the players Guardians but instead make them normal humans just trying to do their shit outside the wall. Dark Heresy might work, but anything with decent ranged combat mechanics could work.

I could see something like Dark Heresy or Only War working well for that. But I don't see why you'd want to play Destiny as anything but a Guardian, you wouldn't be able to experience a story involving the Hive or the Vex, and even involving the Cabal or Fallen would be a stretch if combat was factored in. You could focus on the political aspects of City life sure, but surviving out in the Wilderness just doesn't feel like something I'd want to play if I had the option to play or run a game in the Destiny universe.

>D1 raid bosses
>literal gods
>D2 raid boss
>a fat guy
What went wrong?

Isn't it actually a decoy robot or some shit?

It's a Doombot. He has thousands of them in the treasure-room.

He's a crazy powerful individual if his Robot decoys can Psionically project, it seems he met the Darkness too, so he's no lightweight. I wonder what's going to happen with the Leviathan now that it's been 'liberated'. It must have millions of crew given its size, I can't imagine they'll just let us steer it away to be stripped for parts and data.

There are Grimoire cards that refer to the Traveler as female. Rasputin himself does this, and the Dreams of Alpha Lupine do as well.

The Ahamkara seek to *eat* reality user, and "Fill The World With Teeth". Some lore in Destiny 2 even indicates that they are aware of the Fourth Wall to some extent, and seek to "burn their way back" to OUR world. Doesn't help that it's practically confirmed that they are the Darknness' version of Ghosts. Suffice to say, they are most definitely Capital E Evil.

> Doesn't help that it's practically confirmed that they are the Darknness' version of Ghosts.

>The Traveller gives out techno-sprites
>The Darkness gives out fucking space dragons

Okay, the Traveller better be smoking hot or something otherwise we are really getting the short end of this stick.

The space-Worm Dragons need you to murder and kill countless *trillions* of lifeforms in order to sustain them, though. The Traveller's deal is honestly better in the long-term as you won't end up eaten by your Ghost if you fail to fulfill a certain quota of Slaughter.

The Ahamkara are not solely a product of the Darkness. It's implied that wherever the Traveler went and seeded life they came into existence as well. No doubt they have the ability to choose sides as we had the Leviathan of Fundament who tried to sway Auresh and her sisters from meeing the Worm Gods at the center of Fundament and Said Leviathan left Fundament to fight the hive (only to lose and get eaten, but still)