/HHG/ Horus Heresy General

Pre-corruption on Davin, sure. Horus himself was an amazing leader and someone others looked up to. But after Davin, Horus was a pawn of Chaos. Beyond that, I don't see the traitors doing the Imperium, or humanity as a whole much good when 6 of the 9 traitor primarchs are in deep with the Chaos gods (Horus and Lorgar undivided, Magnus with Tzeentch, Fulgrim with Slaanesh, Angron with Khorne, and Mortarion with Nurgle)

Strong, united in vision, free from lies and ignorance.

After conquering Terra he would have gathered strength and then used what he learned of the immaterium to cripple and destroy the gods, taking their power and adding it to his own might. He would then bringing actual illumination to the galaxy without concealing the truth from his people and obliterate the xenos standing in his way.

Imagine an Imperium that uses full capabilities of the warp, isn't afraid of its denizens and has full control of their own destiny. I'm sure his brothers, Lorgar and Magnus included, would be fully on board with taking the power of the gods in their own hands and using it to shape mankind into true masters of the galaxy.

I think there are many possible futures that could've come out of Horus's victory, but without a doubt many of them would have been better than what became of the Imperium in 40th millenium: a husk of its former self, stifled by beurocrats, ecclesiarchs, inquitisitos and fed on by the leeches called Highlords.

Soon brother.

I actually agree with this also, but either way Horus is great and forever my favorite primarch.

As good as Corax is at being a guerilla commander and tactician, he sort of got shit on by random mutants in the books so I don't think he would have been that tough of a fight for other primarchs.

>I'm sure his brothers, Lorgar and Magnus included, would be fully on board with taking the power of the gods in their own hands and using it to shape mankind into true masters of the galaxy.
I'm not. Not in Lorgar's case.

He would've had to put down Fulgrim and Angron too, I think. Perturabo, Curze, Mortarion (even post-Nurglification), and Magnus would've had his back. Alpharius/Omegon would've disappeared to try their luck on the fringes.

I was also under the impression that a lot of his power had been granted by the gods and could be retracted, as occured the moment them Emperor killed him. But that's unclear and up for debate. It also looked to me like he was getting into the whole human-sacrifice-for-power thing and would not have let go of that power at the end of the war.

I feel like in fluff terms Corax is a pretty shit tier fighter when it comes to the primarchs. I mean he's better than Lorgar and probably better than Alpharius but I think that may be it. I think Curze is a better fighter and he is nowhere near the real niggas like Fulgrim, Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, and Russ. Outside of Lorgar and Alpharius I think the only primarchs who may lose to him are Guilliman and Dorn and even then in a straight up fight Corax would be murdered.

Corax would never fight a primarch-level opponent in a fair fight, unless he's angry and looking to die like on Istvaan briefly.

The gods probably foresaw the possibility of Horus turning on them afterwards and decided to play it safe and let him die, since he was later referred to as the "Sacrificed King".

The primarchs that dedicated themselves to one of the gods like Fulgrim and Angron, were really after personal gain and power so it probably wouldn't have taken that much to convince them to take it from their patrons if the opportunity arose. Similarly with Lorgar, he wanted understanding of the absolute truth, mastery over the immaterium and acceptance of its denizens. Having been whispered secrets and dark truths, he could have accepted humanity as an aspect of the Primordial Annihilator and joined Horus in this hypothetical subversion of the Warp Gods' power.

All this is probably a bit of a stretch, but it could have been written in all sorts of different ways.

Lorgar certainly would not. Some bit of modern fluff gave me the impression Lorgar might finally break his solitude after 10k years with some manner of revelation, but as of the HH he was firmly and definitively a follower of the Chaos gods. He is one of the major causes of the Heresy in the first place (via Erebus and Kor Phaeron, and not exactly helped by Big E either).

Angron, even if he wasn't almost braindead because of the Nail, gave in fully to Khorne. Similarly, even though he overcame the demon possessing his body, Fulgrim gave in completely to Slannesh. Morty on the other hand never did so willingly, and even after 10k years is still quite bitter about things. Magnus didn't become a demon prince for a while, and he would've supported Horus if he had a plan of action. Perty would've supported him, as would Curze. Alpharius/Omegon would continue their normal shenanigans.

Primarchs aren't idiots though, unless Guilliman or Dorn are angry or looking to die they probably won't be tricked into an ambush or at least not one that they couldn't turn around. The real niggas could probably still murder Corax even if Corax had the element of surprise. Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim even if ambushed by Corax they could turn the tide against him very quickly.

>Horus did nothing wrong
Damn right he didn't

>Corax would never fight a primarch-level opponent in a fair fight

he was going to murder Lorgar on Isstvan until Curze saved his bacon.

lol I'm dumb and just reread your post, disregard

I wouldn't call Isstvan a fair fight either.

So while every legion had access to mostly the same vehicles, what vehicles are basically specific legion trademarks

He kicked the shit out of Lorgar tho

The only thing that really comes to mind is Basilisks within the Iron Warriors. While other legions would field them, Iron Warriors were one of the only ones to field them regularly or even en mass.

Lorgar is everyone's punching bag unles you are An'ggrath.

Is it worth the effort starting a Dark Angel army, Or should I wait for FW to add more models to the line?

I don't know user, but I'm starting Blood Angels. Only one year to go!

One of the 2 lost primarchs got some info the Fulgrim book

>Fulgrim describes how 7 of his brothers doubted that the Emperor's Children were worthy due to their handful of legionaries when Fulgrim took over. Named only the "master of the Second," Fulgrim discusses that the "normally contemplative" brother also joined the other 6. Fulgrim also adds that he believed the brother was a hypocrite, quiet, and lacked humor

>Primarchs aren't idiots though

Jaghatai Khan, Perturabo, Guilliman, Lorgar, and Alpharius were smart at least

>traitors
>smart

>Named only the “master of the Second”
If he was speaking out loud, in violation of the Emperor’s prohibition, why would he still censor himself?

If it was internal monologue why would he be using such vague terms with himself instead of a proper name or title?

That shit sounds all retarded.

Perturabo and Alpharius were idiots. Alpharius especially so for personally orchestrating his own death. Lorgar made some bad decisions but I’ll chalk that up to zealotry instead of stupidity.

he was thinking to himself.

In Betrayer, Lorgar and Magnus hint that the Emperor did something to space marine minds regarding memory of the 2 lost legions. Making their existence "fuzzy"

Horus was a corrupted powerhungry fool.

Which of these army ideas (that I'll likely never have the resources to be able to do but whatever) sounds the coolest/most interesting?

>Scouring-Era Black Templars
>Jump-pack heavy White Scars, rather than bikes
>Primarch's Chosen Word Bearers, representing Lorgar's personal guard during the Shadow Crusade and filled with Gal Vorbak and Dark Channelling Vets/Termies (helps that a friend wants to do a World Eaters army led by Angron)
>Ultramarine Vigil Opertii Mission
>Ultramarine Blackshields, essentially Marines exiled from the Legion pre-Heresy for not meeting Guilliman's standards and then having to fight their way home during the Heresy/Ruinstorm
>Shattered Legion loyalist Ultramarines/Space Wolves - essentially a space station's garrison watching over one edge of the Galaxy near Ultramar, practically abandoned and neglected by their respective Primarchs until the Heresy. Based on the Varangian Guard so lots of mixed Roman/barbarian influences across both Legions
>Traitor Space Wolves that are the origin of Skyrar's Dark Wolves from 40k, the first Chaos Marine army I played ~10 years ago
>Traitor Blood Angels using Outcast Sons that worship Slaanesh, combining Chaos, Sanguinary Guard/BA, and Stormcast bits on practically every model
>One of the few Salamander Destroyer cadres mentioned in the Pyroclasts' fluff, going traitor during the Heresy since they know they're Vulkan's least favourite sons anyway. A filled-out allied Detchment (since it's only Sallie Primary Detachments banned from taking Destroyers/Phosphex) bolted on to traitor Militia/SA.

Damocles Rhino and the Sicaran variants are all IH and UM inventions IIRC so they would probably have a few of them.

>The only thing that really comes to mind is Basilisks within the Iron Warriors. While other legions would field them, Iron Warriors were one of the only ones to field them regularly or even en mass.
And yet they are 0-1.
Makes me bitter.

Didn't SW commission the Scorpius?

>Based on the Varangian Guard
if done well this could be good

Bitch please. Have you read Ruinstorm yet. Those massive chaos structures? Theyd be all over the galaxy, terrorising its inhabitants

go for it, 2 unique units and 2 HQs plus a primarch aren't going to drastically change how a list is made.

This.
In his fight against Lorgar then Curze he says to himself he would ass rape Curze. That Curze was never a match for him.
Then we see Curze in the Imperium Secundus storyline pulling off all kinds of BS, like fighting Sang and Guilly to a standstill. Also he nearly choked the Lion out.
Its so much bull I dont know whhat to believe.
Its so much bull

Primarchs have a big ego. In The Lightning Tower Dorn genuinely think he could kick Angron's ass. Yeah, this same Angron most Primarchs agree that only Sang and Horus can really stand against him.

Yea because more ap3 "wound marines on +2" is what the game needs

>got a weapon that's good at killing your enemies
>"Nah, it wouldn't be fair."

Tell me what the main differenses between Dark Aeldari and Slaanesh chaosits? I was really triggered when someone say that it a BIG difference races. It looks preatty brotherraces, all chaotic as fuck, all egoiste, wll mad, evrn colors is just darker in DA. Im confused, tell me why this race so , you know...notfriendly to each other.
Sory about my inglish, i posting from Black Coven.

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WTF?

One faction fucked the other into existence. The other wants to consume the former.

And what? They all same style. Slaanesh like DA Goddes, she make DA consume souls and live forever. Not a big deal for immortality and pover!!!
I think also if human want to hecom one id DA he should worship Slsanesh, becoase she make DA how we knowe them. Without soul cursed by Hangry zbeach man will never becom thtat cool like Aeldari.

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>Primarch's Chosen Word Bearers, representing Lorgar's personal guard during the Shadow Crusade and filled with Gal Vorbak and Dark Channelling Vets/Termies (helps that a friend wants to do a World Eaters army led by Angron)
Or
>Traitor Space Wolves that are the origin of Skyrar's Dark Wolves from 40k, the first Chaos Marine army I played ~10 years ago
Seem the most interesting to me

"War is hell so fuck tactical marines"

>S10 AP1 Ignores Cover
More like fuck everyone without Eternal Warrior or a 4++ and greater.

No, fuck your Tactical Marines, loyalist.

You've run into the problem the Emperor ran into.

The emperor needed to conquer the galaxy to put all of humanity directly under his control. To do this he needed the primarchs, supreme super-soldier-generals. To get the primarchs he needed to strike a deal with chaos. The deal was half of them. He knew some of the ones he was going to keep and some he was going to push away as soon as he met them.

Horus would have a similar problem. With the power of chaos, he would need to reconquer the galaxy, but with half as many, and those tyrants and the insane rather than men of duty and steadfastness.

I'm pretty sure The emperor knew half the legions would turn, he just didn't know when and a specific few who. It seems he was surprised by Horus (one of those he really wanted to keep).

>implying the majority of iron warriors players aren't loyalists

>The deal was half of them.
>I'm pretty sure The emperor knew half the legions would turn
I highly doubt this, the Emperor must have been able to see that problem legions such as the World Eaters and the Night Lords would have eventually required an intervention. Maybe he knew about Mortarions personal feelings and he just didn't give a shit about what would be, in the grand scheme of things, a minor problem.

The Emperor knew about the powers of chaos and what it was capable of and it is unlikely that he would make a deal to give half the primarchs to chaos. Even if he was leading the fight personally (meaning Magnus didn't fuck up the webway) and had he had Horus by his side a full scale it would have been too close to call and left too much damage to the Imperium.

>After conquering Terra he would have gathered strength and then used what he learned of the immaterium to cripple and destroy the gods, taking their power and adding it to his own might
How would he have accomplished this if he was corrupted by a single plage-knife? He was a pawn of the gods, Horus was never in control ever since he took that knife between the ribs. He was mislead by visions of a future he himself created, he was fooled by the gods. And if he was fully in control of himself, he could have easily come up with a plan to kill chaos, like, I dunno, talking about it with the emperor? But instead of chatting with him about it he decided to burn half the galaxy in a civil war that brought nothing but death and destruction.
Horus was not a good guy, and he did EVERYTHING wrong.

>Playing mechanicum
>Tons of T6+ units
teehee

You aren't wrong, but as I answered here there are many possibilities of how it could have played out and been written.
GW loves their status quo between the powers in galaxy, so I am not surprised they've written the books about the events as they did. Consider that the details about the whole Heresy (Erebus's plot, etc.) were conceived after they've established the resolution of events in early editions of WH40k/RogueTrader. They had to explain why and how it happened so now we have the current story with all the minor plots and schemes.
I think it is fun to imagine what could have happened and love Horus, especially before the events of Davin, so there you have my version.

Are there any good counters to a mechanicum list? Seems like a well built Reductor list could take out most things and I don't even mean a magos, 2 minimum thallax squads and the rest is artillery in cover.

Droplite bro seems to clean up every match he plays, although he is playing a very rock paper scissors game with primarch-star players where he's the rock and no one plays paper.

Crunch isn't fluff.

I thought we were talking crunch though, specifically about how the ability to spam more 2+ to wound AP3 would make tactical marines even more worthless.

Well, some are saying that artillery is too strong and should be limited. Some are saying all is fair in love of war. Look what happened to the Emperor, when he tried to play fair and only brought a small force with him to the Vengeful Spirit. If he had gone all in and ran a few armoured detachments through the corridors, maybe he wouldn't be dead now.

I run SoH. A unit of Reavers with volkite, chain axes, and jump packs. While a little hefty points-wise, crush thallax, ursarax, vorax, scyllax, adsecularis, and secutaris under a positively huge volume of st5 shots and attacks (axes also have the ap4 benefit), all while out maneuvering them. A vet squad with machine killers, combi meltas, and a missile launcher with suspensor web spew out a very large number of st9 equivalent shots to delete that whatever needs to be deleted that turn. This mix also works will against marines too. I just point em at whatever they can bully. I play like a night lords player with better shooting and reserves, seems to work for me.

>Seems like a well built Reductor list could take out most things
Reductor isn't even a particularly good list as far as mechanicum goes. Take like two lightnings with ground tracking auguries, servitor controls, and kraken missiles and any artillery he might take is fucked, and thallax are tough to remove via shooting but that's about all that's special about them.

The real annoying list is a well built automata list simply due to the sheer number of high toughness multi wound models. A full 20 man tactical blob doing fury of the legion at point blank range can't even kill a single castellax, combine that with the best weapons in the mechanicum (plasma mortar, darkfire cannon, vulturax arc blaster) and you have list that is extremely difficult to kill and dishes out a ton of damage. Plus for scoring they can always shove a couple squads of tech thralls in a triaros. Barely 200 points for 20 fearless wounds inside an AV 14 transport with a flare shield.

I still think that a combined mechanicum list could about match a broken thousand sons list due to strength 8 AP 2 large blasts with 48" ranges combined with vulturax being FMCs that can rape vehicles.

>final confrontation in Vengeful Spirit control room
>Horus and Emps squaring off
>Horus: you're a fool old man, you can't think you can defeat me
>Emps: *unsheathes Armoured Breakthrough*

>"My lord, incoming teleportarum signal from Terra."
>"Arms ready! Fire full volley on my command."
>A motherfucking Baneblade!

>all while out maneuvering them.
How are you outmaneuvering jump infantry and jetpack infantry with jump infantry? That overall idea though should work fine, personally I run my thallax maxed out with three plasma fusils, utterly rape marines and JSJ makes them hard to pin down, combined with -2 to cover saves from djinn sight means cover saves are very rare.

Also it really bugs me how limited the Mechanicum is when it comes to vehicles. I mean their vehicles are good but they can't spam vehicles like marines or solar auxilia can. They have dedicated transports, flyers, and all other vehicles are in heavy support. I would personally like to see more Mechanicum vehicles in the elites and fast attack slots.

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If they're running Primarchstars into Droplites like my local meta tends to then yeah, hes having a fucking field day every game. Starts off with a 100pt advantage once the drop happens and then any big guns he has blow away 600pts of Mary Szu between them.

Personally my asshole list uses Reductor because I dislike how slow and unshooty the Beepboops are in comparison to 12" move vehicles. They're tough, but they lack the volume of damage. My "fuck you" list is something along the lines of 100 Horde/Flesh Levies, three Medusae with PotMS in a battery to save slots, Gravidons and a MegaMagos Archimandrite with all the toys in a Macrocarid, mandatory Thallax, a squad of Droplites, some Ursarax to join all the planes and Thallax in 2+ Rerollable Reserves and probably a Lightning Fighter too. Normally I'm fighting armour spam featuring Primarchs and Quadmortars, so getting an Occularis round the side and calling down the thunder goes a long way.

Also got a Magos Reductor who just repairs and buffs the artillery all game, and he's currently got a higher melee kill count than his boss because of how many deepstriking meltas go for my artillery and catch Interceptor and an enraged Magos to the face.

Sorry, better reserve rolls (tip of the spear) and "encirclement" if I'm running black reaving.

The absolute state of 40kg

I want to see him try it now. Crunchwise, can Dorn beat any primarchs besides Alpharius?

Dorn can beat pre-Chaos Lorgar.

But not Lorgar Transfigured.

Anyone can beat Lorgar.

It depends. If he charges and gets rampage bonus (his retinue is outnumbered by opposing primarch retinue) he can eek out a win against some of the close-call primarch fights. He's a better support primarch with strong melee against everything that isn't a primarch. Extremely points efficient compared to the others.

What about Sigismund vs pre chaos Lorgar?

Curze's wildly varying power level is easily explained by his Precog bullshit. When he can abuse it, he's absolutely brutal. Later, when the Lion hunts him down on his own, he manhandles Curze like the little bitch that he is character-wise. That stuff in Unremembered Empire was mostly him absolutely abusing the dogmatism of the Ultramarines, something that comes up in Pharos as well on a Legionary level. NLs just hardcounter UMs.

>Not just 50 Shield Tribunes leading thousands of T6 Mechanicum units

He's a bit less powerful now, (that is to say, when the new rulebook lands,) with invisibility replaced with that mind howl power. I'll leave it to others to mathhammer it though.

Except when the UMs absolutely wreck them during the Scouring

He can't take Invisibility as he may only have powers from Divination, Telekinesis and Demonology.

Not sure if bait, but I'm half awake so fuck it.

Slaanesh is the god/ess of the Dark Eldar by technicality, since they created him/her on accident. Sure, they both love excess, rock and roll, and tons of drugs. However, the Dark Eldar that survived Slaanesh's birth and the destruction of the Eldar Empire avoid Warp shenanigans at any cost.

Think of it this way. Imagine you're doing tons of hard drugs. You're having a wild, and supposedly good time. Then you start having a bad trip and a monster comes after you. Except the monster is real and wants to wear your face as a party mask and use your blood to create a new line of designer wines. As soon as the Dark Eldar figured out that there was actually a monster at the end of the tunnel, they started being 'slightly' less wild to avoid running into Slaanesh, and taking lots of precautions to keep it from happening and/or escape it's grasp. Something Slaanesh is still quite bitter about 10k years later in 40k. It's also why in most cases Slaanesh just eats their souls when he/she gets a hold of them rather than letting them convert (though it does supposedly happen on very rare occasions), since he/she views all living Eldar as having cheated him/her

Now, to get this back on subject for /hhg/, though humans are generally less 'extreme' than Eldar, they're more robust, they have psychic potential, can be quite emotional and there's usually a lot more of them. In this regard, the Emperor's Children made perfect servants and champions.

what specific event are you referring to?

>NLs just hardcounter UMs.
Are you retarded? 4000 Ultras defeated 20,000 Night Lords on Pharos. The Night Lords get absolutely shit on by the XIII. Night Lords don’t counter any legion, let alone hardcounter.

wtf is black coven?

The Dark Eldar are terrified of Slaanesh and do not want her to eat their souls - even though their lifestyle (unbridled hedonism) is similar.

In other words, they are unhappy that their lifestyle feeds Slaanesh.

I thought they had to maintain the lifestyle so they wouldn't get eaten.

Kind of like their primarch, when fighting on their terms, night lords are extremely effective. When fighting on their enemies terms are one of the worst legions. Like the tramas crusades. If the night lords had fought the dark angels like night lords, they would have done considerably better, but since they had a "stand up" fight, they got beaten pretty soundly.

It also depends on the quality of their leadership. Sevatar, like Kharn, really keeps shit together when present alone without his primarch. Competency in the extreme. When their crazy primarchs are present or when the aforementioned are absent, who knows.

In other words l

In other words, it depends.

They feed off the pain they cause to stay alive, to stay immortal.
That way their souls don't go to Slaanesh.

Anyone know who's going to be writing the Sanguinius primarch book? Hope it's not James Swallow again.

I vote for Gav.

He's decent, I would like Wraight to do it.