How does Veeky Forums feel about more esoteric and strange classes...

I always preferred incarnum as working with your own soul-stuff, rather than getting mixed up in all the petitioner nonsense. Made it feel more like the character had a stake in what they were doing.

That's exactly what 'essentia' is. Soulmelds are just that- You're grabbing the echoes of long-dead heroes or whatever, and melding them back together by using your own soul as the mortar. Or using them as 'inspiration' to make your own soulmeld. Then you charge it full of your own energy. That's why Necrocarnates are so damn evil- it's all about stealing the literal soulstuff of other people to use your own soulmelds with. It's something that's supposed to be so innately personal to yourself, except a necrocarnate is a slut with it, putting his soulmelds together using the power of others.

So how did the binder work? I keep seeing people saying they to see it in 5th all the time.

Long story short, there's a list of different 'vestiges' of their own levels, their own abilities, with rare 'requirements' and 'influences'.

Every morning, a binder selects a vestige (or two, if high level), and binds it to them. This requires a casting check, and if the check is a success, the vestige is bound, and the binder gets all of the vestige's abilities. Such as, say, 60ft darkvision, two huge horns that work with charge attacks, and some fire breath here or there.

And if the casting check fails... then the vestige is still bound, and the binder gets those abilities... But the binder now has to follow the vestige's influence. Could be something from 'must give gold to all dwarves you meet', to 'must try to impersonate anyone in a position of influence'. If you do those things, you're fine, but if you don't, the vestige begins to wrestle with you, giving you a -1 on almost every check or roll you have until the vestige is let free.

pretty much you make pacts with entities that were unable to reach their afterlife after they died (i.e. there god would not let them in, theres a monster who was destined to bring about the apocalypse but was killed by a group of epic lvl heroes before its time, theres the demi lich from tomb of horrors who avoided going to the abyss by obtaing a limited form of divinity from the cult that worshiped it.) you can have a number of pacts up to a certain amount based on your lvl and as long as no pact conflicts (i.e. if one entity hates dwarfs, it will not make a pact if you have a pact with a dwarven entity active). each pact gives you a set of abilities, a unique physical manifestation (which you can suppress) and you have to make a check or else part of the entities personality in forced on you for the duration of the pact.

In 3.5 you can get up to four of them at the same time

There are also a couple that more or less always existed as vestiges. There's really no broad classification for what vestiges are

did we just have a 3.5 tread out side /pfg/ with out a shitposting flame war? this is amazing.

That's just a sign of how awesome Incarnum is.

It's not even a very good class, but it's my favorite because it's fucking rad.

>It's not even a very good class, but it's my favorite because it's fucking rad.
That's my attitude for Truenaming but in that case it's a class that is truly broken and unusable.

When I was GMing a gestalt game, I came up with some fixes for the truenamer. The biggest thing is the removal of the Law of Sequence, and changing the check to be versus the target's HD instead of their CR.

Yeah, thats what ive done. Such a ridiculously simple fix too.

I legit prefer them to the default classes, because Psionics, Incarnum, etc are at least sort of consistent in how they come into being for a character.

And by default, I meant Default magic classes.

Also because they're far better designed than 3.5's core classes, generally.

I like Psionics, and one thing I hate is the sort of catch 22 onto why they never really caught on. People don't use it because people don't use it and WOTC doesn't really seem inclined to.

Honestly, that's the kicker with a lot of "esoteric" classes. They're not that odd fluff wise, it's a world chock full of supernatural stuff. It's just that GMs don't bother incorporating it organically into their worlds.

I mean logically speaking, you really should have more Psionicists running around than Wizards or Sorcerers.

That goes without saying mate.

Of course. If the designers hadn't been stuck with such a shitty core, they could've done some amazing things.

I love the binder. One of the most fun characters I ever played was a binder trying to pass himself off as a conventional wizard to avoid getting lynched for using forbidden magic. Half my build was just sunk into keeping up the ruse; aside from binding vestiges that play well with an arcanist type style, I also used a feat to get UMD as a class skill and maxed Sleight of Hand cross-class (including actually taking Skill Focus!) so I could reliably use scrolls and wands while passing it off as ordinary spellcasting.

I ended up in a party with a paladin AND a church inquisitor. And I was keeping the true nature of my character a secret both in and out of character; only the GM knew up front, the other players had to figure it out themselves.

I fucking hate them. In pathfinder at least.
What the fuck does Witch add besides hexes which are just more OP if anything?
Fuck summoners, inquisitors, oracles, all those other shitty classes that don't need to exist.
Only non-core class that really is lacking from the game is the spellsword/duskblade character. Oh and psionics is gay shit, too. Just let the player bully the DM into having the "psionics and magic don't interact" then let him jerk off by having his powers be undispellable unless the DM sends psionics enemies against him.

I would them to be in. I am happy the mystic is in ft or organic but I would love to see the Incarnum classes as a thing.

Happy psionics are coming would love to see the Incarnum classes in 5th as well.

Too bad Psionics is kind of shit in 5e and is restricted to one class only.

Honestly, I would have just made Psionic Varients of the base classics. Psion is a sub of Wizard. Wilder of Sorcerer. Psy Warrior is Fighter. etc.
>Witch add besides hexes which are just more OP if anything?
Witches are still tier 1, but are all around worse than Wizards.
> inquisitors, oracles
Inquisitor is one of the best designed classes in the game. Same goes for alchemist.
>. Oh and psionics is gay shit, too. Just let the player bully the DM into having the "psionics and magic don't interact" then
>Psionics is gay because the player can bully a GM into a houserule the rule book itself calls out as ill advised.
May as well call the whole system gay because a player can just bully a GM into giving them a 20 in everything.

Binder is honestly my favorite class of all time

Also core PF, like 3.5 is shitty as fuck and only the non-core classes are worth fucking looking at.

Binder was the shit.

Oracles were great and an example of an interesting caster class. Less versatility in spells, more fun supernatural abilities related to your theme.

Having access to all spells is one of the reasons casters are needlessly overpowered in 3.PF; casters should work with more limited choices and martials should have workable replacements for more crucial buffs.

I prefer the Fantasy Craft take on it; core classes are flexible and generic, able to fill many interpretations of the same niche by customizing further with feat selection, weapon use, and playstyle. However, you get Expert Classes (a prestige class with 10 levels to progress) to specialize into something more specific like "Alchemist" or "Paladin" or "Monk", with Master Classes (prestige class with only 5 levels) for ultraspecific concepts like "Flying Mount User" or "Regent".

>Inquisitor is one of the best designed classes in the game. Same goes for alchemist.
Not really. How do you figure.

>not really
Then you legitimately do not know how PF works. Both classes can fill a variety of in combat and out of combat niches in a satisfactory way without overstepping their boundaries.

Love them to death. Love the Binder, love the Totemist, love Psionics, love Tome of Battle, love monster classes. Hell, I even like Truenamers a bit.
the weird classes in unusual sourcebooks were perhaps the single redeeming feature of 3.5

>Both classes can fill a variety of in combat and out of combat niches in a satisfactory way without overstepping their boundaries.
Nice assertion with zero evidence / supporting statements.
I could say rager and rogue do the same thing and you'd have no reason to say otherwise. Due to the fact that you made a bunch of subjective statements.

What, you want MLA citations too? Let's walk through Inquisitor

>Specific Spell List
By virtue of having a predetermined, smaller, and thematic list of spells, the Inquisitor doesn't step too heavily on the toes of other casters. They focus on utility, removal of negative effects, investigation, and buffs. Their limited direct-damage/status effect application is often focused, again, on thematics/works best vs thematic enemies like undead and demons.
>Teamwork Feat Focus
The Inquisitor is forced to consider positioning to gain powerful force multipliers but doesn't rely on teammates also purchasing the same feat, meaning their burden on the party composition is lessened.
>Skill Bonuses
The Inquisitor gets laser-focused out of combat utility in regards to social investigation (but not convincing people of things), tracking (but not survival), and Monster Knowledge (but not knowledge in general)
>Bane and Judgement
The thing that brings them closest to feeling like a Paladin, but defines them as a secondary combatant who gets to hit like a truck/punch above weight class for limited periods/vs certain foes.

You have a class that has combat utility without overshadowing the Barbarian or equivalent, skill-monkey utility without negating a dedicated skillmonkey like a Rogue, and the flexibility of spells without the true breadth of a Wizard or Sorcerers spell list.

user, you are being a needlessly contrarian faggot.

I played a level 1 binder, rolled very poorly on my bluff rolls to conceal my powers from the party, got lynched for it and wound up stealing the special artifact we were aiming for out of spite leading to a 3 day foot race. After escaping my character reappeared as a miniboss of sorts fallen victim to his pacts influence after consuming the artifact to bind more vestiges than usual.

I never looked at magic of incarnum, but after seeing that pic in the OP I was interested and went and googled what it is and now I have a urge to play it and see what it's all about

Tell me more about the totemist, I'm interested in playing proxy Shaman King

Better off being a binder primarily dedicated to one vestige. There's feats and PRCs for that.

pretty sure there's even a vestige that lets you pull a scaling magic sword out of air as one of the abilities

I too have interest in this but not for Shaman King

That shit was disappoint as fuck get better taste

well if your boundaries include a variety of non/combat niches, your boundaries are too wide.

It's a cartoon for pre-teens, there's nothing wrong with watching it at the appropriate age. Now if you were an adult watching cartoons, lol!

That's when I watched it, shit was awful.

Incarnum is fucking awesome. You basically wake up each morning, give yourself a bunch of buffs (Up to 2 at level 1, 4 at level 5, 6 at level 10, etc) and then these buffs are glowy awesome. Stuff part of your soul into the buff to make it stronger- into your Crystal Helm if you need AC, or into your Airstep Sandals if you need to fly, or into your Mage's Spectacles if you want to UMD. You don't have all of the essentia in the world, so you can't have them all maxed out (at first)...

but hey, you say, your GM is a dick and he isn't giving you any magic items? Well, say 'fuck him' and grab some CHAKRA BINDS. Your crystal helm soulmeld, that just looks all floaty and glowy? Fuck it, Bind that shit to your Crown Chakra and you gain a third special ability from it- The ability to... Have the force descriptor on melee attacks. Yeah, that's less useful, but Airstep Sandals let you fly infinitely and hover in place when bound to your feet, Mage's Spectacles grant a constant Read Magic effect while bound to your brow, etc.

I've got no clue what Shaman King is, but the Totemist is basically a melee combat/Barbarian version of the Incarnate. (While the Soulborn doesn't exist. No, seriously, that section is so shit just block it from your memory.)

ANYWAY. Totemist has a different list of soulmelds, all themed after various monsters or abilities. Lamia Belt gets you Bluff and Hide bonuses, Manticore Belt gets you Jump and Spot, etc.

But the Totemist has a new, special chakra- the TOTEM CHAKRA. It's bigger, it's badder, almost every single totemist soulmeld has a special totem chakra that gives them natural attacks. Manticore Belt lets you shoot a volley of spikes, Girallon Arms gives you four claw attacks, etc. It's awesome. (And you want to get the 'two chakra binds to same slot feat as MUCH AS YOU CAN, for the totem chakra)

Classes like that feel weird to me.

I think both ends of the spectrum are good. Having only 3-6 really core, really well designed and generalist classes is good and having a (literal) unlimited amount of classes because your GM can make them is good, but when you get into splitting hairs D&D style Warlock+Wizard+Sorcerer+Witch+Magus as all being separate classes in the same game and universe it gets kind of weird and draining.

What I'm trying to say is I'd love to play in a game where the GM will let you play a class like the Pufferfish Merchant or the Nightwatchman on request, or a game where you can build your own class OR the game has just a few core good classes, but not a game inbetween.

I like a lot of the mid to late 3.5 experimental subsystems...though wish shadow magic had been more functional. Truenaming only ever worked once, when a player of mind jumped through every hoop as a Truenamer to get bonuses to Truespeak. Really a factotum using Truename wizard spells would have been thematically closer to the seeming intent.

So basically a bard. Also half the teamwork feats are retarded shit that fuck with the action economy. But, good post. The time I GMd for a inquisitor the guy hated it so much that he switched to a ranger after session 6.