D&D 4e successor

Hey Veeky Forums, I'm part of one of the several groups adjacent to Veeky Forums working on a game inspired by D&D 4e, and I figure it can't hurt to discuss the concept.

We're all people who liked the game and are hoping to make something that retains its strengths while improving on its weaker aspects, but it's always good to get more information on what people would want, both those who liked and who disliked the prior game.

There are some things we're not going to change. We liked the combat system and how powers work (although we're slightly broadening the definition of Dailies, to allow powers with other usage restrictions to occupy the same slot), we like the focus on heroic high fantasy stories about badasses doing awesome things, along with structures like the three tiers and Themes/PP's/ED's.

On the changes front, improved non-combat is a large focus, with dedicated slots for non-combat powers and a removal of permanent costs from non-permanent rituals. We're also looking at a more abstract wealth system, having less magic items but making those you have more interesting and significant, focusing on interesting traits and powers rather than raw mechanical focuses.

There's other stuff of course, but I can answer any questions people have. Keep in mind that we're not really considering 5e- People who like it already have a game that caters to them. We're looking at 4e as an alternate evolution of the D&D formula, and trying to improve on it and create a more refined version of it.

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I'm very interested in an updated 4e successor. I'd like to streamline the skill system as much as possible (I know you said you're not into 5e, but that system is one of my favourites.)

Can you expand on what you like about how 5e does it? Something we're currently looking at is the skill system. Something we dislike is how the mental stats (Int/Wis/Cha) get significantly more associated skills and skill uses than the physical stats, but we're finding it quite difficult to rectify that and are pondering ways to do so or alternative approaches.

Fixing feat bloat and taxes as well as situational bonuses (many of which comes from feats and magic items) would be a good thing.

Some sort of universal bonus stacking rule, that is a bit less reductive than 5e's Advantage/disadvantage maybe? Which reminds me, I liked that in SW SAGA edition you really only had 1 more "improvement" to a skill by being an expert at it, and could not stack item bonuses and the like up to infinity; something that only the 4e arcana abuser is going to miss.

Oh, if you are possibly redesigning classes, design them with hybriding in mind, and possibly make multiclassing with feats a bit less painful.

Shorten weapon lists and possibly just eliminate the +2/+3 difference, or make it so a +2 weapon is actually worth it.

Can you clarify and specify what you mean by feat bloat a little? We're still currently a bit up in the air with feats. We're playing with the idea of splitting them up into combat and non-combat feat slots, to make picking up some interesting utility or fluff things not a direct loss in combat potential. Removing feat taxes is something we entirely intend to do though. We want to make every single feat choice feel interesting and meaningful in and of itself, reducing the overall number of feat choices as part of that.

Something else we're pondering is 'Class Talents'. Take all the boring feats that only provided a direct mechanical bonus or upgrade to a class features and repackage them as discrete, mutually exclusive choices every few levels, so we can focus class feats on interesting variations or extra utility rather than just 'more numbers'.

Hybrid is something I'm not familiar with, although members of my team are so I'll raise it with them. We like how 4e did multiclass feats, but in line with what I said above, we want to make every single feat a cool, interesting choice in and of itself, which should hopefully help.

With weapons, we're still playing around with options but the +2/+3 thing is certainly dead, we don't think it adds any real value to the game and just restricts player choice.

I mean there are a lot of feats but a lot of them are low impact direct improvement and do boring numerical stuff, like situational more damage or bonus to hit. I think it'd be better if feats were exciting, and had higher impact; like getting new powers and other such options.

>Class Talents
This is not a bad way to remove about half of my complaint.

>multiclass

Yeah, the feats were OK, but having to go Paragon Multiclass for replacing At-Wills (and just Paragon Multiclass in general) sucked aass. Adding some sort of option that nabs you a hybrid talent even when you don't hybrid, would work wonderfully.

>weapons

Made this post a while ago:
For 4e, I'd have set it up so each weapon has tags only, (no damage listed, bonus damage is a tag). Higher "tier" (simple/military/exotic) weapons have more tags.

Two handed weapons have 2 extra tags. Versatile weapons have 1 extra tag labeled "versatile" (like "versatile: damage" or "versatile: reach") that applies when you two-hand it.

So for example, you have a short sword in your main hand (light blade, precise+1, damage + 2).

In your off hand, you could have a dagger (light blade, thrown, damage+1, off hand), or a shield (bludgeoning, defense + 2, off-hand), or if you got military weapon training a parrying dagger (light blade, defensive+1, damage +1). Empty hand is considered an off-hand weapon as well (a bad one probably), and you'd have feats to add a bunch of tags to it, monks would improve it, etc.

All your tags of the weapons you are holding apply always when you could make the relevant attack with a weapon (so your shortsword's extra damage/precision doesn't apply when you are doing a ranged attack with a dagger).

In terms of numbers, our progression currently includes 8 combat feats, 5 non-combat feats and 6 class talents, split across 15 levels (we're halving the number of levels, making each level a significant bump in power, although we're also going to provide an alternate 30 level progression chart if people would want a slower pace)

Paragon Multiclassing is something else I'm not particularly familiar with, but it's something we'll probably avoid just because nobody seems to like it. Figuring out how to make Hybrid work more smoothly, or how to allow a minor feature-splash, is something we'll have to look at.

We're actually considering a tag driven weapon system. The only trouble is how to make the various utility options worthwhile alongside 'more damage'.

Why not turn it into a grid-based skirmish wargame? Might be more profitable

Because we enjoyed 4e as a roleplaying game. If we were doing this entirely for the sake of profit, we wouldn't be making an RPG aimed at a pretty niche audience in the first place.

We have vaguely considered how you'd do the mechanics as a board game though. In some distant, far off theoretical space where we actually finish the damn thing, we thought boxed boss fights could be kinda fun. A bit like Sentinels of the Multiverse. Sell a box containing an environment, a boss encounter and a set of premade characters. Maybe some preliminary encounters if just the boss fights wasn't enough to appeal to people. Each box would be a self contained game, but you could also mix and match heroes, encounters and environments to change things up and add more replay value.

For multiclassing/hybrid ideas, maybe you should check out Shadow of the Demon Lord and Legend, if you haven't yet.

Both approaches are pretty cool.