Orcs as empire builders?

Or high orcs, you know like high elves, but orcs

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They're called hobgoblins

No they are not

It's your setting, do what you want. Fuck, I've got stooped, near blind samoan-gypsy sharkish trolls in mine.

This. You want a goblinoid with Legions and Citadels, but want to stick to the official lore? Hobgoblins.

Well there's the mongol style conquerors if that doesn't float your boat. There's also naval conqueror route for actual boat floating

Which official lore would this be?

Brutality and empire-building aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, it's almost a pre-requisite.

Bloodthirstiness doesn't require members of the civilization to constantly reach for each others' throats. The IRL Aztecs were orders of magnitude more brutal than most fantasy orcs, and their leaders weren't killing each other in mak'gora duels every other day.

I'd be more inclined to say this , but orcs as empire builders could work, especially if you play up their slaving culture and follow inspiration from Rome.
If you have a race that works as a Grecian analogue (dwarves or elves, probably) you can have a fantasy version of what Horace describes as their relationship:
>"Captive Greece took captive her uncivilised conqueror and instilled her arts in rustic Latium."

My campaign features a few companies of "professional" orc mercenaries. They were sponsored by one of the lords to fight a geographically remote enemy and provided them with all the stops. Plate mail, human tacticians, utility mages, masterwork weapons and a "face" party to handle negotiation with besieged towns or surrendering enemies. Quite a few of them have bought or looted magical trinkets too.

The orcs are okay with this arrangement because even CE 2 Int monstrous humanoids recognize dying less and plundering more is always good.

They are also a surprisingly threatening antagonist group.

5e d&d at least

Every edition since at least 3.5

It depends - do they have a flag?

Aztecs were really shitty "empire builders" though, they just bullied other people into giving them what they wanted at a given time, they didn't actually rule anything beyond their capital.

You've got to have a flag, it's the rules.

It's still an example of an orc-like society which didn't have the bullshit klingon behavior while retaining brutality.

The Inca are probably a better Native American example.

They're called Klingons.

No, they're called Scro

My setting has "High Orcs", but they just call themselves Orcs. They refuse to acknowledged the retarded barbarian Orc as being of the same species as them.

Orc's used to be fairly advanced tech wise, but then one mad scientist built a machine that essentially made one of the gods comatose so that god's lover cursed the Orc's fertility. They tried to use alchemy and medicine to overcome it, which worked, but at a price. Some became fertile, but degenerated into savages.

Even when Orcs did have fairly advanced technology they didn't really have an empire. They spread all over the world, but they've always been fairly independent from one another.

> A small number of humans moves into their territory and produces 95% of the food in that territory with superior farming techniques.
>orcs say muh racism
>kick humans out
>orcs starve because inferior intellect
>orcs beg humans come back to farm and reverse famine

but yeah, i guess orcs can build a civilization

I think of Orcs as Israelites. Orcs are actually just a tiny backwater kingdom. All those violent slaughters and banditry is actually just mythology. Orcs never actually conquered the land they exist in (which they believe was promised by God) but fairly peacefully transitioned into a monotheist society. Likewise, Orc law seems barbaric to outsiders but follows the maxim of "ward off the death penalty whenever possible." Most crimes in their holy book are written as deserving the death penalty but four (male) witnesses are required to obtain the full death penalty.

Fuck off kike

>No, they're called Scro
My dirtsider.

>when /pol/tards see a thread about orcs on Veeky Forums

/pol/tards are jews?
I couldn't resist

?
I'm an anitheist with no Jewish relatives. I think Mosaic law is disgusting and horrible. It is definitely horrible in many points but not that worse compared to many other primitives cultures. However, in the modern age it is a problematic as worshipping the Code of Hammurabi as divinely inspired.

Hob-orcs

I wouldn't mind seeing an adaptation of Goblinoid and Orcoid races in an desert-y Ancient History setting.

Have Hobgoblins build a desert empire using Ancient Egyptian Aesthetics. Chariots, spears and bows in combat.
Goblins are subjated race that live within the Hobgoblin Empire, make up most of the populus but aren't intellegent enought to lead a revolution.
Empire clashes with the Bugbear-like primitive race that dwell in the jungles tho the south.
Orcs are more like the roaming nomadic race that wander the inner desert as raiders and scavengers. Clash with Hobgoblin Empire from time to time, other groups work as hired muscle for pyramid building and/or mercenaries.
Orcs that settled on the coast built smaller coastal civilizations and become the Scro, trade with the Hobgoblins, but keep to themselves, while slowly growing into a Carthage-like power.

This depends really on what makes orcs different from goblins/hobgoblins, and why you insist on using them.

is this a reference to South Africa?

I'm down with it.
When I can I have orcs as generally fat, lazy hedonistic. They live in monolithic, brutalist cities and while away their days with drugs food and entertainment provided by a bloated slave class. They get by because their natural size and strength makes it easy to bully smaller, weaker folk into doing their biding. However they have turned a great deal of craft toward the science of war and torture.
They are Military Culture, not a Warrior Culture
Most orc armies are made up of waves of slave soldiers and animals with a few orc drivers. Orcs themselves care more about victory and reward than personal ability.

That said orc city states are perpetually on the brink of collapse. Their way of life is inherently unsustainable. It's never a question of if or even how long they will last but what they'll take with them in their fiery demise.

I also like to go with the idea that fantasy races are branches of humans under particular conditions. Orcs are orcs, not entirely because of blood, but because they spend their lives eating human flesh, speaking vile orcish words, praying to dark gods and generally living in a cold and viscous way. Many generations ago orcs were proud, beautiful giants but they let their pride turn their minds callous and in time their bodies followed suit.
Orcs see in the dark and fear the light because it reminds them of what they once were.

>/pol/tards are jews?
Yes, we are. Did you miss the memo?

*AD&D

go back there

Go for it.

If it works for your setting, then go for it.

KYS

What's wrong with Hobgoblins?

make me you beta cuck :^)

what are elves then?

Sicilian

Thats the best sort of empire building. All of the loot, without any of the hassle of managing it.

I just never know what to do with them.

>stronger
>smarter
>more civilized
so in essence, you need Uruk-Hai

No.

The way it seems to have gone in the setting, is that anytime a great kingdom/empire/nation forms, eventually orcs raid and pillage their way in and take over the position of ruling power. Because raiding and pillaging is good fun but getting to gather all the spoils without a fight (taxes) is even better, and they're just too lazy to go through the long and troublesome process of civlization building. So yes, much easier to just invade, and shove yourselves into the role of leadership through violence or force like forced-marriage to leaders. Then they just let things run themselves and enjoy lounging about at the top like lazy spoiled royal brats who are weeaboo for the civilzation the co-opted/took over and try to act all cultured and whatnot.

As expected, after these civilizations get ORC-d, they tend to decline, allowing for others to rise up in their place, grow to prominence, then get ORC-d. Democracy in fact, was created in the setting as a specific means of avoiding this recurring orc problem, though it's some defence but not perfect because the orcs can still come along and just turn things back into a monarchy/tyrant state.

Interesting that you brought this up, as I've been recently developing as part of my setting's lore a time when orcs were perhaps not so much empire builders, as empire conquerors, when an unusually divinely gifted orc warlord conquered a Dwarven kingdom that had fallen into decadence, and set himself up as an emperor, taking the Dwarves as slaves, and using their craftsmanship to build his great works as he envisioned, much of it devoted to brutality, conquest, and a massive fighting arena. The orcs as they are now, scattered in various tribes and disorganized still cling to that era of glory they'd love to reclaim, while the Dwarves and humans remember this as a reason not to underestimate orcs, and keep them scattered and unable to reform a conquering horde.

Not him, but more like Rhodesia.

>Implying only faggot bugmen like tabletop games.
kys

>When I can I have orcs as generally fat, lazy hedonistic. They live in monolithic, brutalist cities and while away their days with drugs food and entertainment provided by a bloated slave class. They get by because their natural size and strength makes it easy to bully smaller, weaker folk into doing their biding. However they have turned a great deal of craft toward the science of war and torture.
>They are Military Culture, not a Warrior Culture
>Most orc armies are made up of waves of slave soldiers and animals with a few orc drivers. Orcs themselves care more about victory and reward than personal ability.
So, they're the Hutts from Star Wars?

I have Ottoman-like orcs in my setting.

Uruks are just orcs who are bigger and tougher. They're the giganigga to the orc's hoodrat.

Until the people you have bullied find a reason to rally vs your empire, then you are fucked.

Not quite, they were engineered with mixing of human, elf and whatever else to be taller, stronger, resist light and be smarter and more independent. They aren't only bigger, they are what to elfs are to humans.

what makes them different from the elves then, just their physiology?

Kingdom of Many-Arrows, my dude.

>Orcs as empire builders?

I like Orcs.
I like Orcs as idiot savant empire builders, though.

What I mean by that is they're capable of building empires, managing infrastructure, resources, they'll forge weapons, they'll march, they'll enslave and tax others, and they can build great civilizations.. But they never last and they're always just a means to an ends and that ends is greater conflict. Orcs LOVE war and the more of them there are the greater desire they have to just let loose and bring forth the carnage. They only tax and work others so they themselves can focus on fighting, they're only so adapt at forging, crafting, and blacksmithing because they love great machines and killing devices. Orcs invented gunpowder, not Dwarves.
It never lasts, though, it never, ever, never, lasts- Orcish nature can't thrive in times of peace and security and the moment they run out of enemies is the moment everything falls apart and they begin to internally consume themselves: willingly and gleefully organizing into smaller clans, tribes, and infighting themselves to self destruction.

Once upon a time, there was a grand, beautiful elven kingdom. Then orcs happened, they raided, pillaged, ransomed and took over the territory with brutal hand and cruel hearts.

But one thing is conquering and another managing, and despite their savage nature the orcs came to be enamored of the fine wine, beautiful decorations and innumerable tales the elven culture had to offer. It also helped that taking slaves to do the menial tasks like management, child-containing and cooking was very common among the newly-enriched conquerors.

Time passes, the old leadership gives room for the new chieftains, those who have grown inmersed among elven teachers and elven books. The core of orc culture remains, yet a layer of appreciation for the arts and architecture envelopes that core, and adds to it. Orc society changes, new conquest and brutal expansion bring the slivers of the acquired culture, the shamans and chieftains acquire a way to write down their stories, the grunts and builders attempt to copy the structures of the new capital whenever they go, the most affluent landlords even learn to speak elvish to show of their intellect and riches.

On time, the concept of high orc emerges. To be a high orc is to be the most powerful and civilized of the orc tribes and kingdoms. To be a high orc is to be brutal, valiant, to serve in the conquests of new land, but it is also to be as wise and learned as the elves, to built cities that last a thousand years and bring order and prosperity to the conquered lands. To be a high orc is to like scented grapevine, to kill a mounted horse with one swing of the axe, to write in perfect calligraphy the deads of the ancestors and elders, to march without hesitation to the untamed lands, to live on the greatest citites on earth, to serve the chieftains and the orc people, and to fight and bleed for the high way of life.

Hey OP, DM here. While this guy is right he's a bit short sighted. IT's your campaign do what you want man, but you wanna hear about our shit right?

Well, here's what I got. Orcs NEED that tribalistic theme or else it's just not orcs without it then it's hob goblins but tall. Orc empries are very important to do right or else you look like you're just a race promoter.

Now it's easiest when Orcs are just a Villain race, like the Gerudo from Zelda. They have to steal food and supplies and do that through violent raiding since it's what they're good at. Now give them a big capital that outwardly looks prosperous but due to having to kill for everything it's actually very very bad and like every winter a shit load of em all die. Now to prove that tribalism more that need to kill to live give them bone armor that they killed. After like 4 it's ill advised for parents to dress them anymore, and now it's up to them to kill and show off.

Also all kingships need to go like this (Bear with the partial cringe it may be present) youtube.com/watch?v=1rbC2tc09qc specifically the first part.

All females must look like pic related or be a big birth mothers for fetish reasons. Orcs must be fetishsized a little bit.

They have to wear shirts with fake abs on them?

>youtube.com/watch?v=1rbC2tc09qc
what is this shit