Pathfinder General /pfg/

I'd do the movement speed too eventually (even if it never eliminates it entirely).

Also I liked the idea of a feat that adds your STR mod as a natural armor bonus.

Can we talk about how Wolf Style is getting nerfed and paizo dicksuckers are defending it, or is that kind of thing more tired than the Str/Dex mess?

25 Point Buy with a group that won't be cunts about it in either optimization direction, because then someone won't have to suffer when they want to play a martial (like a Monk) and not dump like a garbage truck

Point buy, I don't want what character I'm playing be decided by arbitrarily random means.

Has Rory just become a catchall term now? Is calling someone Rory the new version of calling someone a faggot or cuck?

Whats the difference.

I usually prefer point-buy, but I'm okay with rolling. My group rolls for stats, with the caveat that everyone gets a free 18 to any one stat

A part from quickened spell metamagic, quckened spell rod and 1 tier in archmage, is there another way of making any spell into swift action/inmediate action?

>Wolf Style is getting nerfed
What is the nerf?

So for Strength, the fixes are:

>Subtract your Strength Modifier from Armor Check Penalty

>A feat to allow Strength to add to armor via Natural Armor

>Strength reduces the Movement Speed Penalty of armor by 1ft for every +1 of Str Modifier, rounded down

Point buy is the game is going to last more than one session and is going to be more serious than SNL
Rolled if the game is a one off and is going to be all jokes and almost no game

>How to make Str builds even stronger
Dex builds are a meme
Dex monk? shit
Dex magus? shit
Dex anything that actually uses weapons? please

>Sounds great
>Doesn't help when Str is mainly missing touch AC and Reflex
>This also sounds great

Dice role. It encourages diffrent play styles.

How would you address the touch AC and reflex, then, without just making Str replace Dex?

Add something that's the equivalent to a lesser version of Muscle Memory that the Brutal Slayer gets on top of the suggested benefits by the other user. Allow you to add half or full STR mod to replace DEX for Dodge AC and add half or full STR mod to reflex. Assuming you're using Elephant in the Room then it'd be:

>STR fags get access to Power Attack for free, to hit and damage with all melee weapons for free, get 1.5x damage for 2 handing for free, get reduced armor penalties for high STR for free. With 2 feats can obtain access to STR to AC as NA and half/full STR mod to replace DEX for Dodge AC and Reflex.

>DEX fags get plus initiative for free, DEX to Dodge AC for free, to hit with range for free, Reflex for free and to hit with finesse for free. Can pay 2 feats to get DEX to damage with finesse weapons (potentially limit to no 1.5x) and obtain access to an equivalent to PW (Piranha Strike). If you want to limit 1.5x to damage for using finesse weapons then add an additional feat tax.

Don't forget the movement speed in armor.

what if we just don't give dex to damage and just don't give strength to AC so that stats are actually different and not just the same thing with different names

what if we let Dex be dex and let strength be strength

What if this didn't actually address the problems that people feel exist in the system, and repeating it doesn't contribute anything?

What if the problems in the system aren't nearly as bad as you think in this spot, and the biggest offender is free dex to damage.

>what if we just don't give dex to damage and just don't give strength to AC so that stats are actually different and not just the same thing with different names

Well then feel free to do just that. It's your choice. The discussion is for games that do allow for it in some capacity and for the fact that STR gets a relatively short end of the stick even if you're not using 3PP.

>free dex to damage
>"""free"""
You keep using that word, and also ignoring anything that contradicts you

implying deadly agility isn't free as fuck

But the problems are as bad as we think, that's why we're proposing fixes for them? And fairly small fixes, at that. Why do you have such an issue with this?

meanwhile most people say they should stop playing 5e and goto pathfinder...

That's because that's true, user.

tried roll for stats, and that went VERY BAD...
Don't mind my warrior that has
20 STR
18 DEX
17 CON
@ lvl 1...

point buy removes that chance of having too good of roles and actually makes a character has a bad stat, something mary sues never have...

"yes me, I agree that the problems are as bad as i think, I also think I should have a billion dollars a year."

Also it's a thing that some places aren't built for large creatures. Isn't that part of the problem for caveliers?

Then explain how the problem that's perceived, namely that Strength doesn't really have much going for it, is false.

Explain how the proposed solutions, that Strength lowers ACP and compensates for the movement penalty of heavy armor, with the POSSIBLE option to allow feats for it to gives Reflex or Nat Armor, are in any way bad ideas.

Go ahead, actually make an argument.

Literally no suggestions please you, and you keep arguing the same points over and over and acting like everybody is telling you everything is totally fine as-is.

Strength's entire point is damage, the problem with dex is dex is taking strength's niche

Maybe all your suggestions are bad.

Once again, no, it's not. The problem that YOU claim is that it's Dex taking Str's shit, the problem that EVERYONE ELSE claims is that Str doesn't really have anything going for it but damage and it feels worthless.

>strength was the only way to get damage
>then dex gets it
>somehow this isn't dex taking str's shit

really makes u think.

And god, other stats are so interesting

i can't believe strength only lets you lift things and hit harder, fuck this gay earth

When was the last time you smooched a kobold?

I'd take 1 and 3. Instead of 2 we can just remove Dex-to-damage and replace it with Lethal Grace: the Feat.

>Str is the only way to get damage
>Dex makes you more accurate at ranged, which means more attacks, which means more damage
>Int/Wis/Cha can give you spells which give you ways to entirely circumvent the damage system, summon things to do damage for you instead, or otherwise shatter the game
>Nah, Str's fine, mediocre melee damage and no utility? Yeah, no problem

So 80+ HPs at 8th level umonk is shit, right? Literally everybody one shots me, I spend 99% of the combats unconscious.

>Given that one of the devs commented years ago about how martials desrve to be bad because highschool bullies, and casters should be gods because this is "our game"...
Everyone knows they think this way, but I didn't think they'd actually say it. Got a source?

>str
>mediocre melee damage
>not incredibly high melee damage capable of oneshotting most threats with ease

youtube.com/watch?v=xn07GeZ7Psk

This is really the best solution. It promotes balancing str and dex from both sides of the equation.

Thats literally what every smart person thats not retarded has been suggesting but we can't stop the fucking str-retards that want strength to have EVERYTHING from whining at this point.

Point-buy, with the houserule that players don't get additional points by setting scores below 10. I don't want parties where everyone has a 5 or 7 in half their scores so they can make the other ones higher.

>Make a basic archer
>Completely outdo the Str guy by spamming six hundred attacks per round even at 10Str

Then raise the pointbuy amount.

>archer
>Has to invest in strength to deal damage
>implying archers aren't strengthfags

bahaha

best starting array for archers is 16 Str/18 Dex, sure, you have more Dex than Str, but you aren't a Dex fag.

>Don't invest in Str
>Still get massive damage because by the time a str build can attack twice you can attack four times
>Point Blank Shot, Enhancements, spell buffs, all sorts of shit getting multi-stacked

Should one expect whores in the bath house? How many should there be?

>an archer without strength

Now I know you're retarded

It's no longer an (Ex) Bestow Curse effect as its capstone, now it's just lame ability damage that can't even knock anyone out.

Doesn't work like that
Currently in a 6th level game, the fighter deals 30+ damage in a single hit (isnt even optimized) and the ranger (with 10 str) deals even hitting with everything around 20

Depends on all sorts of things. What kind of culture are we talking here?

Italy.

I'm planning to, haven't decided yet whether to do 25 or 30.

>Deadly Aim + Rapid Fire
>He thinks he's going to hit with many attacks
>He thinks his 1d8+4 is going to be meaningful

That's actually good for your level. Your GM is probably just a shitter who doesn't understand what's supposed to be reasonable for enemies' stats.

I wish I did, but that was eight plus years and three computers ago for me. If it hasn't been deleted it's on their forums in a very short Martials vs Casters thread.

In that case, the bath house would certainly be a front for a brothel (in addition to the typical social club aspect).

Well, there's probably whores. But they're all gonna be dudes.

30 damage... really isn't that impressive at 6th level. Consider that a Wizard is shitting out a fireball that does 6d6+6 damage, which is an average of 27 damage to multiple targets all on its own. And that's from a WIZARD, someone who isn't even meant to be a combatant. Dealing 30-ish damage to a single target is really bad in comparison; a frontline martial should be dealing about 7-8 points of damage per level on average (in other words, the average damage that a greatsword deals with extra rider effects) with a single turn's actions.

>reflex saves exist

A wizard won't be dealing 6d6+6, they'll be dealing 6d6

And he noted that fighter wasn't optimized at all you fucking retard.

Whoops, confused wizards with sorcerers, my bad.

>Raise the pointbuy
>Haven't decided whether to do 25 or 30
user, 25 pointbuy is the minimum acceptable amount.

>blasting sorcs
>good

You need to go

>user, 25 pointbuy is the minimum acceptable amount
>Acceptable
>Implying that no other alternative is ever good
Is this what they mean by badwrongfun?

If you're just using 1PP then the main STR fag archer builds are usually Barbs and even in a 15 point buy you'd probably knock DEX to 18 and STR to 16. Archer Fighter builds used to be 14 STR and 16 DEX with 18 DEX on a 25 point buy from what I remember. Paladin and Zen archer builds could totally dump STR though.

I think even if you aren't using 3PP crap (like Deadly Agility) and don't use EitR then I'd be all for the reduction in ACP and armor movement speed. Mainly because HA just blows and I've always hated how PF just took 3.5s shitty implementation. Additional feats would be fine IMO if you are using 3PP though.

anything less than 25 is cancer. talking from experience trying to make a Martial on a 10 Point buy and suffering for it. 10 PB is basically saying "Fuck you, Roll a Caster."

25 pointbuy is the minimum acceptable pointbuy because trying to play a martial without multiple hard-dump stats is painful without it.

10PB is fuck that leave.

That's my point, my dude. They're not good, they're pretty trash. But they STILL do more damage than this theoretical Fighter.

...how did you get 20 STR from a roll?

So whats wrong with a character having 18dex and 16 str? Whats the problem.

The theoretical fighter was mentioned not even to be optimized

30 damage from a fighter is acceptable.

>user, 25 pointbuy is the minimum acceptable amount.
/pfg/ posters really overestimate how powerful characters need to be, though. They seem to think that a GM will be throwing CR+4 encounters at them every fight, when in reality Pathfinder is actually a pretty easy game.

>full plate + tower shield walking fortress fighter
>GM doesn't even bother attacking AC anymore
>Usually goes for the squishy wizard first

Are tanks just pointless in this game or am I doing something wrong?

>That's because that's true, user. IMO

ftfy

You are still going for the "Anything except the way I like it is badwrongfun" argument.

>tanks
>pathfinder

This isn't an mmo you faggot

rolled 3 6's (crock of shit) and +2 from M. dwarf
(5e)

you just have to make yourself Enticing to hit, find a way to use Aggro Mechanics like Antagonize or the Warder's Armiger's Mark, or drop AC as hard as possible and just be a sack of HP and DR like a Barbarian.

I already said it, 30 per hit, and he wasn't even optimized. Yeah, isn't that much, meanwhile the 10 Str Ranger with everything he could get doesn't even deal 20 with his 4 attacks.

Unless you're a legitimate threat, have a way to force enemies to attack you, or can otherwise put yourself inbetween your enemies and you reliably, nope, it's bad.

Don't approach Pathfinder like an MMO. Your enemies aren't obligated to attack the most well-defended opponent instead of the most dangerous one.

Here we go, codified:
pastebin.com/F4wy25rY

>I could either choose to attack the useless martial or the really dangerous caster, mmm, I really can't decide

>tank
In what way are you forcing enemies to attack you? because having more AC doesn't give you "agro"

>Have pretty high CMD
>Witch always casts black tendrils on me when I'm surrounded
Pretty nice combo

>So whats wrong with a character having 18dex and 16 str?

Nothing, I quoted the wrong user. It was aimed at the one who said you could just dump 10 STR on an archer which isn't true in all cases.

>witch always casts black tendrils on me

sugoi.

kinky. you and the Witch must have an....interesting....relationship when out of combat.

>Deadly Agility working like Lethal Grace

Hmm, I like it.