What are your thoughts on training?

If someone at your table chooses to spend their roleplay opportunities and character downtime to undergo rigorous training, should they be rewarded in some way? Would bonus feats / custom trained powers be too strong compared to the other players?

It's basically the way advancement should be done, instead of suddenly learning a new ability out of thin air.

It's a munchkin's dream. It also actively punishes people for choosing to roleplay instead of crunching mechanics via training, because they'll fall behind the people who eschew roleplay for bigger numbers.

I'd only allow it if it was for retraining ie: swapping out feats or bonus attribute points to correct a gimped build.

I always assume characters are honing their skills of screen. If you want to focus on it, cool, you Might get the occasional temporary minor buff. Nothing permanent or super significant.

Lemme run you through a scenario.

Party enters a town and see a scuffle between a master swordsman and bandits. The party swordsman was awestruck at the deft moves and lighting like attacks the swordmaster "flavor" speaking employed. So, in roleplay, he approaches the swordmaster and begs to be taught some of the techniques the swordmaster used.

How would you, ad DM / GM respond?

Make the Swordmaster subplot into a character thing, give him a few trials and such. After a while, if he progresses well in the Swordmaster's eye then you give him a new ability or other way of using his abilities, or even just a cool piece of equipment from his teacher.

I'd talk to the player about it, and figure out what kind of benefit would be appropriate and fit their image of the lessons their character would learn. A lot of it depends on the progression system at play. In Legends of the Wulin, my most commonly played system, I'd likely give them a way to buy into the Heaven Sword Alliance loresheet, which they can invest progression resources in to unlock various transcendent sword techniques.

LotW also offers a neat way of doing short term benefits in the form of Chi Conditions, mechanical bonuses tied to narrative clauses that can have powerful but temporary effects on a characters capabilities.

I think there should always be drawbacks to shit like this. Maybe shit like they're tired and sore for a while from exercise, maybe there's a trade-off in skills, or what have you. A character shouldn't be able to lol-train to get XP

>Maybe shit like they're tired and sore for a while from exercise
Unless they're severely over-training (which any character would notice, so you'd need to warn them of the cut off point where their body can't sustain the exercise) or as out of shape as you are. Most somewhat in shape people can easily train for four to five hours four to five days a week and stay completely in shape. Highly conditioned athletes (which a lot of PCs qualify as) are easily able to go six to eight for six to seven days a week, with the occasional break day.

Isn't that violating both and
when they explain that it shouldn't give them permanent things / punish thise who didn't indulge?

Let's assume that them getting a new power at that point in progression isn't normal.

So like a short term penalty to emphasize their rigorus training, but then they come out with a new technique?

I might let them pick something up early, if they showed initiative and roleplayed it well. Other people would catch up though.

Then again, I should probably say that uneven progression is one of the things I despise most as a GM.

Like, let's say two fighter type characters with the exact same character sheet at level 1. They both pick their level up progressive stuff the exact same. One player is actively searching out new teachers and new techniques, while the other roleplays going out to eat / enjoyment. Should the one actively training get something for choosing to spend his spotlight on training? Should the other get some other non combat reward for enjoying his free time?

Sure. I might give the guy NPC connections, plot hooks or early advancements for non-combat stuff instead.

So to further this, would you be the one to decide to give them these bonuses, or would you wait for one of them to specifically ask for a bonus?

I'd probably discuss it with them when seemed appropriate and see what made sense to them and didn't overly unbalance the game. Communication is key.

I'd make the skills have such precise focus that anyone who isn't the swordsman probably wouldn't be interested in what they could learn.

>If the swordsman uses a greatsword, maybe the player could get a +1 to hit or even a single use of a specific battle maneuver as long as they also use a great sword.

Nothing too big or game breaking, and you could even say that the fighter would have to stay back in town for just long enough for the rest of the party to go on a quest and get other rewards

I feel like a static bonus would be the thing to not give them though, right? Like wouldn't a more difficult attack to land, but applies a debuff / dot be much more flavorful? Maybe they can train with the master ong enough to reduce the penalty or something. At that point though, it would seem like they are getting a whole feat/powers line for "free" with the cost being their roleplaying.

It's good to hear you'd be proactive.

Way I run it is temporary bonuses that last for one encounter/attack/saving throw/etc. So that those that want to take it can get a small benefit that doesn't overshadow others that don't.

Personally our group allows you to gain parts of a feat in 5e. Currently I have a character who is dedicated to being as physically fit as possible due to upbringing, to reflect his continuous training my DM gave me the Athlete feat minus the ASI. Others have trained for different things like learn a language, or train in how to spot traps/hidden doors so they get a bonus.

The stipulation is does it make sense for the character?

So if you look back to my scenario ( ) you would personally treat the training with a master swordsman as a temporary boost that went away next session?

Okay, then let me give you a modified scenario. A base fighter watches a fight between two casters, teleporting across a battle field, slinging spells, this that and the other. The fighter becomes fixated on the teleportation, and obsesses over the idea of flashing around a field whilst fighting. So, he starts roleplaying staying up late after training to study specifically teleportation. He searches out wizards strong enough to cast it and askes for training in manipulating the arcane because he now dreams of being a teleportation swordsman. How do you think your table would handle that situation?

I think an advance on a skill point for next level would be appropriate.
Maybe if you focus exclusively on training for combat it could even be an advance on your BAB or a save.

Most likely he'd have to go through a series of tasks, gather up some ingredients and then more likely would get access to the spell misty step x times a day or he'd start to multiclass into a class that gives Misty Step as a spell, possibly have to switch from whatever subclass of Fighter he was to Eldritch Knight which has access to those spells or multiclass into one that has a teleport ability or access to the spell.

It won't be 100% free but we have an agreement to not try and abuse me and the other guy who DMs being willing to give certain bonuses for RPing training in something.

>downtime

Good luck lol

To give more information, the guy has no care for anything arcane except for moving himself with magic.

I know that no table would let him get this power for free, but would it be possible at your table for him to gain a teleport power while staying a full martial character - provided he was willing to carry out as many side quests / roleplays that it took?

Most likely, the Monk class in 5e can easily be seen as martial who uses ki to power extra abilities, at level 6 of the Subclass Shadow Monk they have an at will teleport, so long as they're in dim light or darkness, up to sixty feet as a bonus action.

If they just want the teleport then it'd be the first thing I said with a series of tasks, RPing and then x times a day Misty Step. How man times would depend on their level, where everyone else is at and how well they do in their tasks.

You cam make downtime. Like when you set up camp for the night, or while everyone is shopping, whike the rogue is scouting ahead for a while.

Access to Prestige Classes. If you don't have an RP reason your PC is now an "Archmage" or "Weapons Master" or whatever, then you can stay with the basic classes.

Players respect things they have to work for and will take anything you just give them for granted.

I totally understand that players respect stuff that is earned and not given. I am a player well more often then I am a DM. As this thread continues on, I think the question is more boiling down to:

If a player wants to learn something that they normally cannot do / doesn't exist in the game and is actively trying to train / learn what he needs to do to achieve that power, is that going to be possible for them in your game?

All PCs are assumed to spend a substantial amount of their downtime training/studying/experimenting, generally developing their skills.

If the DM asks "You've got a month of downtime, how do you spend it?" and someone answers "I go to those monks we helped and train with them!" that's pretty fucking awesome. They should get some sort of bonus, balanced against the bonuses people get for other RP stuff.

As a DM, I often give out special training opportunities as rewards. Want a bonus feat? Help the retired soldier find his kidnapped daughter, then spend your downtime training with him.

If I wanted to play a video game, otherwise I focus on what the player wishes to 'learn' and explain how it could possibly be acquired.
So in other words training without the meta game concept of trainers.

...

PCs are implied to be training in their downtime anyway. Why should one player in particular be rewarded for stating "My characters is training during this downtime?" Should players be rewarded for mention their character taking a shit, too?

They don't "learn it out of thin air," you windowlicking retard. Like I said, the characters are implicitly training in their downtime. Levelling up represents proficiency of the new skills they've been practicing.

>lolz i'm so clever and original and funny and everybody likes me

Never specified a system :3

Fine then, extra training beyond what the "assumed amount" is. Besides, a lot of tables don't just assume that traing happens. Also, keep it civil. No reason to name call.

Saying the trainer was more of a device. That being said, to you, learning custom techniques / powers / stuff would be fine if they did whatever it took?

It depends entirely on the player and their motivations. If I can trust them not to pursue something for the sake of cheese, and not to pursue a plot-breaking Deus Ex Machina power, absolutely. I'll sit down with them and work something out. Heck, maybe we'll even work out some balancing mechanics for it. My standard is: If I would be comfortable allowing them to play a high level spellcaster or any kind of psion, the sky is the limit. I also warn my players that great powers always come with great responsibility, at a price, or both. If the only hurdle to the power is time and practice, the power would be everywhere.

Stuff like being able to use your HP as Spell Points or to apply metamagic, but every time you use the power you permanently lose 1d4 HP.

If I can't trust a player not to cheese or abuse what I give them, then they're going to have to deal with the consequences. My NPCs aren't stupid. If guards are showing up with their throats slit because the rogue "based on the Joker" is using their invisibility cloak for lulz, they're going to find themselves the focus of a manhunt and some seriously beefed up security the next time they want to sneak around. If they're going full Pun-Pun, they're going to find out that the Gods, Heavens, and Hells have skin in that game.

I am of the opinion as a 3.PF player that downtime should either result in either non-permanent bonuses, or permanent non-combat bonuses.
For example if a player spends their down time exploring the new major city give them a bonus knowledge history / local roll for that area.
If a player spends their down time training give them a temp bonus they can spend a limited number of times essentially giving themselves Guide on a couple crucial rolls.

This became a big deal in our recently started campaign when we realized we had no skill monkeys in our party and each party member had 1-3 skills each meaning that even if the entire party meta gamed and took non unique skills we didn't have enough points to cover all the basic skills.
It was getting kinda ridiculous the amount of times we came across something that was plot related and no one in the party had any non-meta gaming way to know that it was plot related so we shrugged and walked away.
In order to counter act this our GM allowed our characters to spend in game time to go do activities that would give use ranks in skills so the group could function and actually follow plot.

It's almost like I gave quick examples off the top of my head or something. It was just a general system for how I'd handle it if anyone tried asking me to train.

I'm not running these games to see people write how long they've trained into a spreadsheet. Rewards come from doing interesting things, not boring ones. What's the point of incentivizing this?

Systematize it.
Outside of of things like combat and talking, there are things that take 8 hours or 6 hours.
Sleeping is one of them. You can also replenish supplies, improve relationship with an npc or faction, or gather info.
If the training still seems OP, then make the training have a cost. The cost can be paying the teacher or getting necessary texts and materials, it can be attracting unwanted attention, or it can be having to sacrifice something you got from a previous level .

How does one get better at anything in life? They practice. They train.

Not real life, user. This is fiction. I'm not a fan of power-wank fiction where training is part of the narrative, either. If you don't know how to pull it off right, don't even try.

The point is that people don't play games to detail training. They play games like these to have fun. Training isn't fun.

You can make time management into a sort of minigame.
Having some basic time and resource-management makes the characters feel more human, and less like special-snowflakes.

Even if you aren't a fan of it, training is used as a narrative device. Some people, myself included, enjoy seeing the culmination of your hard work paying off.

That's why the training should be a time-skip.
Time-managment can be more interesting than you might think. It's the core of many genres of games. Stories often detail the hero's training for a shitton of time and other mundane things like how tired they are from walking for so long.
Personally, I dislike combat more often than I like it, but I wouldn't say that combat isn't fun. It can be fun, it just depends on how you do it.

Does it really? Veeky Forums's full of people who like garbage like Kumo Desu Ga, where all the protagonist does is grind forever (till she becomes a god at which point the story becomes total shit anyways).

You can limit how much exp your can get from it.
You either have it so once you've trained or x amount of exp you can't get any more from training, or instead you can only get y exp from training each level.

Do this then

I don't want training scenes at all, let alone any kind of incentive for having them. No. That's basically making training the best option anyways, so why would I ever use it