Many magic the gathering players ask the question

Rudy and his fanbase did.

Rudy and his fanbase most likely do not play MTG. They are COLLECTORS, not PLAYERS.

I'm confused why do people treat this game like a stock? I don't remember people getting like this about Pokemon cards or yugioh. I've only ever played with friends and we just used whatever cards we had...

because they are not very smart.

Pokemon and yugioh powercreep is more extreme, so old cards aren't in as high demand, also they have more liberal reprint policies so they don't have to deal with this issue

Basically a bunch of literal retards invested a ton of shekels way back in alpha/beta/Arabian nights days on cards that lost a ton of value when they were reprinted in chronicles, they cried their stupid Jew tears and wotc caved and promised this would never happen again, they put a huge number of old cards on the reserve list and promised to never reprint them again

How about the first two words of "Collectable Card Game". The business model comes straight from baseball cards, you crack blind booster packs to get cards to trade with others or collect, the print runs are limited so the cards appreciate.

If MTG was really a game where every player is able to own every card, they'd just sell them in full sets like Netrunner.

I mean they literally sanction tournaments that operate under the assumption that every player is able to own every card

Otherwise there would be no competition

Rudy barely knows how to play. You only need to see the video about the deck he used to play to realize he is actually full of shit. He is the prototypical guy who never really learned how to play, but was obsessed with card prices and condition. Incidentally, that is his fanbase, too.

It's not like the Power Nine wouldn't be expensive cards if they were off the reserve list, either. They'd still be like 50 bucks whenever they got reprinted, they just wouldn't be "this card is a down payment on a car" levels of expensive.

>It's to maintain value in the product which increases consumer confidence

You know what does that even more?

The game being accessible to new players.

I'd you want to invest, buy reversed list cards. The point of the list is to ensure they constantly appriciate.
Otherwise you should never buy any other card and expect to any sort of money off of it. Anyone who buys large amounts of non-reversed cards is being willfully blind and deserves to get hosed.

People want their cards to "retain value" because when you spend hundreds on a deck and then decide you want to play something else or your deck rotates you don't look forward to spending hundreds more on a new one.

The idiot's solution is to do stupid shit to try to ensure that cards never drop in value, which just doesn't fucking work. Even if you never reprint anything some cards are just gonna become outmoded.

The non-fucktard solution is to print and reprint often enough that decks never fucking cost that much in the first place so nobody cares if they can't get their money back because they didn't sink that much into it.

>Pokemon and yugioh powercreep is more extreme, so old cards aren't in as high demand

I want to point out that this lie MTG players keep telling themselves really should stop. MTG has power creeped plenty. There are numerous cards from Yugioh and Pokemon's early history that are banned because they're too powerful nowadays. Magic just floods its playerbase with more crappy cards along with the powercreeped ones.

Yugioh and Pokemon printed the hell out of cards when they're in demand. Magic is the only game that doesn't. This is to benefit LGS and collectors, not players. Magic is not a game that values its players first, it values collectors first.

Only certain old Pokemon cards have high value anyway due to their rarity (Shadowless Base Set or whatever extreme chase rares before Diamond and Pearl block), circumstances (Skyridge), sudden demand (people decide to build decks from older format "for the lulz"), nostalgia, or its a goddamn Charizard

Wouldn't the original Power Nines and other cards in the Reserve List would still be valuable anyway due to historical value?

Shut the fuck up you soyboy fucking shits. Real Men have been playing the game for over 20 years and we bought cards that we still own. We bought them to use and we have done so. Now you want to take away our money? The money we spent? Fuck you. Maybe if we whine harder than you we can get the Reserved List expanded just to fuck you over harder. I'm all for it now. Fuck your shit.

>real men have decided to invest enough money in a children's card game that they now feel they need to whine about it on the internet professionally to retain their money value
Jesus christ what manchildren we've produced.

You want the game to value new little whiny bitchbois more than the people who have been playing for decades. You're shit and you're retarded.

this is what happens when you elect a manchild as president. You'll notice this shit ain't happenin' in European MTG markets.

I would assume as long as the shift in price isn't sudden people wouldn't lose confidence

>invest
Invest? Who are you quoting? Your imaginary enemy "Rudy" or whoever the fuck? When I wanted Underground Seas I bought them. Not to fucking "invest" in. When I wanted Tundra I bought them. When I wanted Tropical Islands I bought them. Now you want other people to be able to own these things on the cheap. You want to change the rules to suit yourself. You want to destroy my format so that you can play it. If you want to play my format, buy the cards. We all did. You think players are all investors? Facile fucking brainlet shits.

We're at a point where nobody knows what's good for the game anymore. MtG's economy is fucking alien and it must be hell to be a Hasbro executive now that /pony/, Transformers and Marvel have ran their course and the next best thing to stay a float is spend a shit load of money aquiring Mattel with it's own deluge of undersellers and self-sabotages.

You.
When you bitched about your children's card game becoming devalued somehow.
That means you put enough money into it that you view it as an investment, otherwise you wouldn't care by definition.

>You want to destroy my format so that you can play it.
Far better for the format to die because nobody's playing in it.
Then the bottom can fall out once nobody wants those cards anymore.

So, basically, you're asspained you got scammed, and now you want to help jews scam other people like good goyim?

>WAHHHHHHHHHHH GIVE ME THINGS FOR FREE MOMMYYYYYY BUY ME CARDEEES

Weird, you have no argument other than this literal crying you are doing about how scammed you got.

I got scammed? Is this some brainlet reverse psychology attempt to get me to "cash out" my "big investment" so that you can buy this hot fire off me? Deal with it faggot. Spend a thousand, earn fifty thousand. Kill yourself because you weren't even born when I was gripping up.

Why should the cards be expensive though?

Vintage is virtually an online-only format now. Legacy will soon join it.
The few people clinging to cardboard will find that they can never actually sell their "investment" since the only buyers will be other speculators.

OOOOH SO SCAMMED, OPENED PACKS AND GOT CARDS THAT SELL FOR $900 NOW! I'M SO STUPID FOR BUYING PACKS OF LEGENDS AND ANTIQUITIES AND ARABIAN NIGHTS AND REVISED FOR MSRP!

>Paid huge amounts of money for valueless cards
>now willing to literally cry, weep, bitch, moan, and fight to make sure other people pay huge amounts of money for valueless cards
Yeah, pretty dictionary definition buying into the scam.

Because millions of people want them and there are only 19,200 copies of many of them and they will never be printed again. You want to play with my copy? Fuck you, pay me.

Yes. Yes you are. And apparently your only solace in that is scamming others.

nah, I'll just make a duplicate and sell it to investors who are too dumb to tell the difference.
T.made 3,000 this month this way with hobbyist supplies.

And then use duplicates to play with. And if you get salty about it, you're not allowed to play with the much larger duplicate crowd.

>you're not allowed to play the game anymore so you are now an investor so that I can hate you
Brainlet soyboy RL whiners, everybody

Low quality reading comprehension.

>The money we spent?
I think you mean 'The money mommy spent'.

Reserve list cards will never be reprinted you say?
>Laughs in Chinese

Truly, this is a wonderful time to be chinese.

lol you're a bitch.
I traded basic lands for duals, I owned 20 ancestral recalls. Your great sacrifice of dropping a couple hundred on a busted Tundra that has a high chance of being fake doesn't mean shit in a world where people still play flip or rip with the few unlimited boosters left.

The RL is a problem because the cards are finite and there's idiots actually destroying the format by getting cards graded or outright destroying them for 5 seconds of twitch fame.

I don't even play Legacy offline anymore because nobody who actually plays the game owns the cards.

>few unlimited boosters left.
What if WOTC was secretly still printing reserve list cards, and only leaked them out as 'forgotten' unopened sealed product?

(Admittedly with how shit they've been about leaks lately that would have gotten out by now)

What if WotC was the chinaman all along?

OOOOH I BOUGHT THESE FOR MSRP NOW I DESEEEEEERRRVE $900 FOR THEM. WHHAAAAAAAAAAT PEOPLE ARE MAD I WANT SOOO MUCH FOR MY CAAARDDBOARRRD DADDY WIZARDS PLS MAKE SURE ONLY I CAN HAVE THESE CARDS PLS.

that's (((you)))

The reserve list doesn't really affect the game unless you play vintage/legacy, which with the cards being so fucking expensive, very few people do. Those that do play do so online where Wizards can "print" all the reserve list cards they want so supply and price for players isn't an issue.
I don't think it should be expanded because even if it happened in an ideal way (putting cards only legal in vintage/legacy on it, leaving all modern-legal and newer cards alone), it would negatively affect (read: increase the price of) those older cards not (yet) on the reserve list that still see play in EDH, which is one of the most popular formats.

I think vintage/legacy fags need to sell their shit off to collectors and play with proxies (WOTC doesn't even want to sanction real tournaments for these formats) or play online already. Get over it, grandpas.

Probably the biggest positive change Wizards could make to the game for the majority of players right now is to remove mythic rarity. Standard decks are hundreds of dollars, and that isn't conducive to letting new players enter the most popular format.

>Is consumer confidence in the products lasting value important for sales?
Yes, but in all honesty I fail to see how the reserved list ties into confidence. What confidence will be broken if the reserved list goes? I understand it was made for early collectors who were buttmad that they lost value on their cards, but if they take out the reserved list, then what does that leave? Why would people suddenly stop trusting WOTC from this? They might stop buying their products because butthurt from poor buying choices, but I just fail to see how people see this as WOTC breaking a promise and they can now never be trusted again. Trust them about what though? I understand everything about the argument except this. It's not like anyone trusts WOTC in the first place, and there's nothing to trust about them except for the reserved list. So who gives a shit if the "trust" is gone?

I said this in a different thread, but their shoddy card quality of late is more damaging to the sales and reputation than abolishing the reserved list would be.

>I think vintage/legacy fags need to sell their shit off to collectors and play with proxies (WOTC doesn't even want to sanction real tournaments for these formats) or play online already. Get over it, grandpas.

Legacy is coming back to the pro-tour actually.

t. Modern player

>IT'S A COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME

Cried the Rudyfag failing to understand that the last word in that is game.

Right, but that doesn't mean that WOTC really wants it to, it's more due to popular demand. It doesn't sell fresh cardboard.
Same story for Modern too, WOTC only really wants to push Standard.
Truthfully I wish WOTC would just reprint the hell out of popular cards and abolish the reserve list.
I don't think the reserve list actually benefits WOTC or players, just morons who think collectible trading cards are a good long-term investment.

>It doesn't sell fresh cardboard.

It could if they reprint stuff like Mana Crypt and Force of Will again.

Which I'd like since I'd like those for EDH

Then the aim should be to make the game more fun and accessible.

The reserve list contradicts both.

Reserve list and obscene card prices 'keeping card stores open' is a bullshit argument, like tipping is a bullshit argument to why restaurant staff get shafted wages.

>MTG has power creeped plenty.

Not to the point that Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon did you mong. Only thing from Yu-Gi-Oh's very early days that's permabanned is Pot of Greed.

Meanwhile there's never been anything as powerful as the Power Nine, Gaea's Cradle, and so on. Only thing that comes close is Necropotence being a more busted Yawgmoth's Bargain.

MTG's powercreep comes in waves.

Once modern becomes obsolete we'll have a new modern format to reset the power level, until then its just going to be 100+ decks to cheat emrakul into play, burn, or a flavor of the month deck that gets banned 2-4 months later.

>I don't think the reserve list actually benefits WOTC or players, just morons who think collectible trading cards are a good long-term investment.
That's the entire argument against it actually. WOTC doesn't get anything from it because it means that they can't make products to try and get money from aspiring legacyfags or the legacy-lite nature of cEDH.
It doesn't benefit anyone who hasn't been playing the game the past 20 years, because they don't have the resources needed to play legacy. So they'll have to buy them, from people inflating their value due to the fact that WOTC said they'll never be reprinted again.

All this meaning that there are a ton of people that would likely want to get into legacy, but can't because the price of entry for anything other than a burn deck will run you at least 1.5k.

I find it's closer to trying to argue that we need people who go around stabbing random people, otherwise doctors will run out of work.

...

Thats not a legitimate argument, while the tipping culture in america is retarded and reductive to the workforce it aims to 'help'

admit it, you have sixty five available death's shadow

Only if you suck, live around assholes, or work for a bad establish... wait a minute that's like everywhere.

Yes, neither is saying the reserved list helps keep card stores open. I've been to quite a few card stores in my time and I can probably count the number of reserved list cards I've actually seen for sale in them on my hands.

But my Tundras cost like $12

>investing in cardboard
I can understand investing in raw materials, but not fucking something that is legitimately worth less then a penny.

And people wonder why china makes money, they will print a black lotus in this day in age and sell it to you while the actual company who makes the game wont.

Well the current solution for people who want to play legacy is to play MTGO.
$20 moxes, $60 black lotuses, $3 workshops
Of course paper product is king, and the MTGO client still fucking sucks.

Naturally, but at this point abolishing the reserve list isn't something WOTC is considering, and probably won't consider until they are on the ropes financially.

>Naturally, but at this point abolishing the reserve list isn't something WOTC is considering, and probably won't consider until they are on the ropes financially.

But user those two cards I mentioned aren't on the RL

It's not hard to seize the financial initiative in this scenario.

If they killed the reserve list and started reprinting staples more often, I would buy a shit ton of packs at my next FNM. As it stands though, the only formats I want to play have unreasonable entry prices and any desire I have to play the game is nonexistent.

Exactly.

The argument that card shops have had for years is in order to keep the doors open they have to sell cards on the secondary market, the reserve list was created because they reprinted good cards and in response people stopped buying product in bulk believing it wouldn't be worth a fuck with reprints, which of course is wrong.

People who have been in the game for 2 decades have had to buy cards for a range of prices. Bought Sinkholes for $5 each in 1994, can get Sinkholes for $5 now. Wouldn't want this to apply to everything I've bought over the course of 2 decades though. The value is customer loyalty reward. All this Reserved List buyout shit is ultra-recent in the long view. I don't want the same babby reactionary tumblrites who got SDT banned in Legacy whinging the Reserved List into non-existence just so they can destroy the entire game and get some fedora with a katana to chop up babies in Hasbro's children's hospital.

There's one near me that has RL cards but unless it's shit like Survival of the Fittest they never sell.

>crying this hard because your cards' value is entirely artificial
There's a reason we're making such money off of you.

>SDT

What?

>early state etchings from Renaissance masters are only worth a few pennies
Hilarious

Why would you buy them from a store when prices are cheaper online?

Yeah. That's the other thing. Of the RL cards I've actually seen, I've never actually, or extremely seldomly seen them actually disappear from the case. And I've never once seen someone buy one

Its not just reserve list, they simply don't reprint cards in general when they really should, they should go back to selling decks that win pro tours and make them exclusive to their webstore, as much as I like my LGS they do some shady shit when it comes to price gouging.

Exactly. They had one that was Heavily Played for $40 and that's what I paid for one for NM online.

It's weird how a thing there is only one of that is hard to duplicate due to paper trails and history is worth more than a thing that can be easily duplicated with nobody being the wiser.

Pick an argument, I thought I was the one making money off of you by being an "investor" with all my cheap duals that I wasn't stupid enough to give away Mr. 20 Ancestral Recall

they're only valueless if no one will pay any money for them
as reserve list buyouts increase, the cards actually are accumulating value

>I don't want the same babby reactionary tumblrites who got SDT banned in Legacy

How in the absolute fuck did Tumblr get Sensei's Divining Top banned? I don't believe you for even a moment.

An early-state etching is one of many copies from the original copper plate, made early in the copper plate's lifespan (thus resulting in a good copy).

As someone from the outside looking in, I quite frankly can't understand the culture of card-money you guys have going on here.
It seems like an endless spiral of losing money for no reason to gain nothing for everyone involved except people who make illicit copies.

Why would you do this when instead you could just have a game?
Why are we letting this discussion happen on Veeky Forums if it's not a game but in fact some kind of weird ass investment scheme?

>Only thing from Yu-Gi-Oh's very early days that's permabanned is Pot of Greed.

This is how I know you don't play any games outside of Magic: The Walleting. Cyber Jar, Fiber Jar, Morphing Jars, Graceful Charity, Heavy Storm, Harpie's Feather Duster, Snatch Steal, The Forceful Sentry, Solemn Judgment, Ultimate Offering, and many, many more cards on the forbidden list that you could play in the early game, because they're too powerful. Just like the Power Nine and Dual Lands in Magic today. Just like in Magic today, design philosophy is now "print a powerful creature and staple a spell-like effect on it." And you'll notice that in Magic and in Yugioh, the "power creep" is all in the creatures (additionally in Planeswalkers, in the case of Magic).

The ONLY difference is that 90% of magic cards get away with being unplayable jank "for draft" which is something no other card game inflicts on its player-base. Still, they have that 10% of cards in each set that are pushed and power creeped so they'll make a splash in the eternal formats (which would be the regular formats for Yugioh) and frequently break these formats in half and have to be banned.

Whining, same thing anti-RL people do in order to try to create "healthy change" for Legacy

I've learned that it's best not to question MtG collectors.

You're retarded for a number of reasons from a number of different people.

And yet, the value isn't the actual article, but the paperwork going with it assuring it to be the actual article.

>They have value as long as the bubble doesn't burst

The cards won't be printed again. You need the cards to play the game. People who knew this years ago and paid a little money to make sure they wouldn't have to pay a lot of money in the future are now the target of ridicule and scorn because they own the things that babby noobs want to own for free (like the genitals that females have and that these noobs wish they had).

Why are magic players shitposting so much today?
What's wrong with you guys?

>knowing about Yu-Gi-Oh
>having scorn for MtG
This is how I know you're a nigger