Making Deals with Dragons

First off I want to thank you guys for helping me with the Stronghold rules a few weeks back.

Well my players are being off the wall again. I'm running Lost Mines and they just got to Thundertree. They've met with the Druid and learned about were Cragmaw Keep is, as well as the dangers of Thundertree.

So they're scared of Venomfang, but they want him gone. They want to convince him to try and take over Cragmaw Keep! They're of course going to try and kill him when they get there themselves, but they figure they'll be stronger at that point, as they have plenty of side-quests given to them by the peoples of Phandalin.
I'm liking their creativity, but how would they be able to talk a Young Green Dragon into leaving his relatively safe, isolated lair in the middle of Neverwinter Wood to attack an occupied Hobgoblin fortress?

don't deal with the devil

maybe they could convince vemonfang that there's a shitload of treasure in cragmaw and if he helps them, he can have it all and the keep as well

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They've never played Shadowrun.
If they can make a convincing argument then I'm all for it. I just can think of HOW they'd trick him into it. Sure the Goblins have treasure, and the Keep is better then a tower, but it's fully occupied and Venomfang isn't an idiot.

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>I'm liking their creativity, but how would they be able to talk a Young Green Dragon into leaving his relatively safe, isolated lair in the middle of Neverwinter Wood to attack an occupied Hobgoblin fortress?

Just for the record, what exactly is stopping the Green Dragon from flying over to the Hobogobo's fortress and just massively inconveniencing EVERYONE ELSE by allying with them? Maybe I'm just a pooper, but if it was me I'd put the very real threat of the WORST thing happening: Dragon lying to the players, flying to the keep, and convincing the Goobers to fight for him, that way he'd have the castle AND staff.

Yes, but what would the party gain from this arrangement, from the Dragons points of view? If the Dragon gains massively, but the party gains little to nothing, then the dragon is going to be mighty suspicious as to why they're asking it of him.

Dragons aren't stupid. They're arrogant and dickish, yes, but not stupid.

The Goblin king is an arrogant ass too, and his army of Hobos and Gobos could kill the dragon.
But that would weaken the forts defenders...

Just remember, if they cross him, Venomfang will poison breath, try to drop one party member unconscious, then pick them up in its claw and say "do what I say or I bite off their head." Cause that's much more interesting than a slugfeast to the death.

Maybe it just needs to kill the king to get the rest of the hobbos to heel? Maybe it'll say to the party, "okay, but you go assassinate the king, then I'll swoop in to conquer the rest"

Does the party know for certain they are goblins?

They do know its a Goblin and Hobgolin Keep. They've also fought a few Bugbears as well.

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Good dragonthought. "I will help you. read: me If you challenge the king, he will come into the open. Kill him, and I will dominate his horde." Hoard? You're not sure.

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an oft overlooked aspect of dragons is their laziness. Venomfang already has a treasure horde and a defensible lair. in order to goad him into attacking Cragmaw Keep, possibly:
1. an exceptional INT or CHA check to see if the dragon buys Cragmaw being an even better lair. dire consequences if they fail, if he agrees to help, they forfeit all treasure in Cragmaw Keep. if he is lied to about the treasure or finds it underwhelming, possibly even more bad consequences
2. a high treasure price up front, and possibly some legalese from the dragon about the extent of the help he will give, discovered later in the thick of battle. this might piss the characters off and motivate revenge later

So they don't want Venomfang to HELP them, they want him to attack Cragmaw Keep on his own, then go kill him later.
They just want him out of the tower because the Druid of Thundertree asked them to drive him off. They want to get to the next level before they deal with him.

that's fine, so to motivate a lazy dragon to stick his neck out solo, without the players specifying an endgame to him directly, the rolls or prices would be even higher
what the players WANT to happen is an ideal sequence of events from their perspective. as the DM, you should complicate it. if things work out for the party, it will be more rewarding than just giving them what they want

I crunched a few numbers.
The Hobgoblins and Bugbears in Cragmaw should be able to kill Venomfang. It'll take a toll, but assuming that Venomfang has to get inside the keep so he can't just cut and run, they can kill him.

Imagine the pants shitting from your players when they go to clear our Cragmaw and the head of a dragon is on a spike outside!

I agree with>"I will help you but I demand compensation" Venomfang hisses

>PCs call out gobbo king and challenge him to a duel. Fighter steps up and they begin.

>During Battle Venomfang swoops in and assblasts Majority of gobbos with poison and a pitched battle occurs. Venomblast flies off and only does strafing runs that hurt the gobbos and comes very close to the PCs.

>Battle ends with gobbos dead and PCs injured and Venomfang lands demanding all of the treasure. PCs protest loudly and Venomfang points out they asked for his help slaying the gobbos, nothing more. With all the cards in Venomfang's claw either the PCs back down or they suicide attack.

>trusting a dragon
>ever

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Trusting dragons

Are those old books any good?

I re-read them a little while ago, just for a trip down memory lane. They don't hold up real well.

Shame, I love the Shadowrun universe, even if I don't like some of the rules of the game itself.

>how would they be able to talk a Young Green Dragon into leaving his relatively safe, isolated lair in the middle of Neverwinter Wood to attack an occupied Hobgoblin fortress?

Party Bard seduce Venomfang.

Rolled 1, 15 = 16 (2d20)