Should the Tyrell not be richer than the Lannister?

Russia had and has the most arable land of any country in Europe, especially since for most of its history "Russia" included the Ukraine.

TV-verse. Not canon.

Pretty obviously the answer is tax policies.

One might venture to imply many things to rationalize this (the Reach being more fractured than the Lannister that have the mines directly under control, the relatively extension of arable lands for every house, perhaps the fact the Lannister are the guys that have cash at disposal anyway) but I don't think GRRM gave a fuck.

There are more muslims per capita in Russia actually.

It's plausible that Tywin is really the richest man due to gold, like a Mansa Musa sort of deal.

Add to this that he seems to be running loans to the Crown. It stands to reason that, with no restrictions on usuary as there where in Christian Europe, the lords of the Rock have been running their house as both a gold mining operation and a bank for ages.

Gold probably a lot more liquid than owning a lot of farmland, but I don't think the Lannisters only had gold.

>Russia had
Not really. Russia is an agricultural powerhouse today, but historically not so much. France, Italy, Egypt, Anatolia, North Africa etc all were more productive.

Wasn't Lannisport one of the 3 big cities in Westeros and thus a major trade hub? I suppose that it is under management of the Lannisters of Lannisport, but this cadet branch probably kicks some of the tariff money back to the main branch, no?

Being out of gold, but taking advantage of everyone thinking you have gold doesn't make you poor. It makes you a bank. Also the loans weren't to the Lannisters, it was to the Baratheons, but I think the show forgot that

Gold isn't that useful on a medieval society because you can't use it for much. Other than buying luxuries but that isn't very useful strategically. Controlling fertile land with a lot of serfs is much better. This applies to the ASOIAF setting as well. Lannisters only managed to hire a few hundred mercenaries in the WOTFK. They won the war with feudal levies. If the Tyrells decided to attack the Lannisters, their gold wouldn't save them. Tyrells outnumber them 3 to 1 almost.

Having Lannisport is a huge deal but the Reach has Oldtown, which was until recently by far the largest city on the continent (and it's still close behind King's Landing).

You're confusing farming productivity with arable land potential. That's the whole point of this discussion.

That's only true if the Lannisters weren't giving out loans and using it for various trade purposes with their major port city.

It was because of Tywin. Tywin's dad lended to too many who couldn't pay back. Rich as a Lannister didn't predate Tywin. Tywin loved his dad but his dad undoubtedly couldn't get shit done half as well.

Also something to remember is that the Lannisters have ruled the west for millennia but the Tyrells only recently came to power in the Reach; before Aegon's Conquest the Gardeners were Kings of the Reach.

I'm not and I'm aware that he confuses productivity and arable land. His point was about productivity most likely, he just used the wrong word. If everyone gets the point despite a mistake, there's no reason to get caught up on semantics.

>That's only true if the Lannisters weren't giving out loans
They have only given out loans to the Iron Throne which they already control. Not that effective. If you want to see loan manipulating look to Baelish, not the Lannisters.
>for various trade purposes with their major port city.
First of all that's your own headcanon, and also you're overestimating the strategic importance of trade in a feudal society. The Lannisters can buy nice trinkets and luxuries from Essos. They aren't strategically important however.

>Though never kings, the Casterlys became the richest lords in all of Westeros and the greatest power in the westerlands, and remained so for hundreds of years
The owners of Casterly rock have been the wealthiest lords of Westeros for thousands of years. Tywin did not start it.

>The great wealth of the westerlands, of course, stems primarily from their gold and silver mines. The veins of ore run wide and deep, and there are mines, even now, that have been delved for a thousand years and more and are yet to be emptied. Lomas Longstrider reports that, even in far Asshai-by-the-Shadow, there were merchants who asked him if it was true that the “Lion Lord” lived in a palace of solid gold and that crofters collected a wealth of gold simply by plowing their fields. The gold of the west has traveled far, and the maesters know there are no mines in all the world as rich as those of Casterly Rock.
Proof that the concept of Lannisters being rich is planetos wide, and predates Tywin.

Land > Gold
but
Tywin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mace
He's just far more efficient.

>Lord Tytos was an altogether different character, amiable but ineffectual, and he allowed himself to be pushed around a good deal, by a number of people.. including Lord Walder Frey (ever wonder how Genna came to marry so poorly?) and the Red Lion of Castamere, the richest and most powerful Lannister bannerman, and a formidable soldier/warrior in his own right
>Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannerman mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels!
And Tywin's dad ruined it. House Lannister was mocked, laughed at & jeered at openly while everyone was borrowing from them & not repaying. Tywin was the one cleaning up from Tytos' mess.

Nowhere in your quotes does it say that the Lannisters lost their wealth because of Tytos. In fact it indicates that Lannisters were wealthy as fuck despite of Tytos being shit, because he could keep on giving loans without repayment.

But anyway, that's moving goalposts. Tywin did not make The Westerlands or Lannisters wealthy rich. They were already the richest in Westeros and had been for thousands of years.

>Tywin said himself the gold mines are empty.
[Citation Needed]

Should the Russia not be richer than the Luxembourg?
Land > Gold.

youtube.com/watch?v=xqIyVtlxbW8

Whats the difference between the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, and the Lannisters of Lannisport?

But what was the balance of trade of the lands of Tyrell? If they had to import a lot of say iron, lumber, or charcoal that would very much effect the balance of trade. How effective is their tax system and how high is their tax on the sale of grain? They may be keeping that key tax low so their grain merchants can easily function without their direct aid.

On the Tyrell side of things is there a effective gold shortage in the lands? The way there was a slow building gold shortage during the period? During the 9th century gold was worth 12 times in weight in sliver. By the 14th gold was worth 20 times its weight in sliver. Does house Tyrell run a run a mint, because that is a fast way to improve the value of their gold. Also do they do banking because that is a very profitable business?

In the *show* he said that.
In the books there’s no indication that they are, but the books also say that the House was near bankrupt in his father’s time due to his father’s inept ruling.
The books actually have a backstory of sorts affecting the “present” of the characters and their personalities, whereas for the show in typical HBO fashion what happened in the last 50 minutes of the episode is more important then anything that happened before it.

Lannisport is another example of George's retardation. It's meant to be a major trade hub but it's not on a coast that would make it easily accessible to Essos, and GRRM has said people don't know the world is round yet.

It's the show so not canon.

The Tyrells also have the lands home to the chivalrous lords that gave us everything ever about the Florents, the Peake Uprising of one Marcher's ego vs. the entire Seven Kingdoms, and the Green- and Red- Apple Fossoways, who are clearly trying too hard to be the Brackens and Blackwoods.

A lot of the economic strength the Tyrells would have is not available, being tied up in fucked up feudalism- or being outright excluded as a socially acceptable stream of revenue.

Plus quasi-medieval societies like Westeros already are almost two separate economies between the Smallfolk herders and cotters and the nobility.

When Tywin and the Lannisters have access to a a lot of liquid wealth ad disposable income compared to the Tyrells, instead of bullying a vassal to pay more taxes and tariffs all they have to do is dig up some shit under their House (at least until they accidentally cause rampant inflation, but before then it's "fuck the rules, I have money")

Not really. Sailing is so much goddamn faster then overland travel that even if it’s facing the wrong side of the continent you’ll still be good.
Sea ports in Europe and China facing what they assumed for centuries to be nothing (as in the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans) or land so far away that it doesn’t matter were still far wealthier then cities without functioning ports because it’s just so much faster and more efficient to carry goods and trade by sea then it is by land. There ARE sea travel based hazards of course, but statistically speaking you are much less likely to encounter them.

How badly would the world be affected if there was a run on the Bravos Bank.

Actually, Tytos did stink the place. Once Tywin took charge, he spent lots of time going debitors. Tytos lent large amounts, it’s why Tywin made retrieving those loans a top priority immediately following him being in charge. This eventually lead to the Rains of Castamere. Tytos did bad enough that everyone talked shit about him. Houses Reynes and Tarbecks were milking the Lannisters dry.

>because he could keep on giving loans without repaymen
That’s like saying I can gamble my salary away and someone would say I was wealthy because I had money to give away.
>Tywin did not make The Westerlands or Lannisters wealthy rich
After the last guy? He did. The last guy drove them to a broke laughing stock. That’s like saying he rebuild something that existed before so it doesn’t count.

Russia and the Ukraine aren't the most rich lands in all of europe
India is not the most rich land in the world
Resources> farmland
Sure you have some cities and farmers but i have iron and gold so fuck you give me your food

Dude, why are you on Veeky Forums instead of finishing the last book(s)?

Banks > Land > Gold

Tywin is a banker... a very jewish one.The crown itself owns him a lot.

The show brings him too much shame. He cannot write without thinking of how badly DnD butchered it.

The Tyrells are absolutely the #2 house because of their productive lands. That might even be canon, I'm not sure. But as others have said that wealth is tied up in a feudal system instead of being in coin. Unless there's a good cause for other people to be buying their food instead of being self-sufficient, the Tyrells lack liquidity.

Fortunately for them, King's Landing is explicitly not self-sufficient even in good years, there's a refugee crisis & impending Winter, and the Riverlands (which once had the wealth to fund Harrenhall) have been ravaged by this war for several years. So the base demand for their produce has been steadily improving for generations, the immediate demand is particularly high, and the competition from other lords with good land is low.

I wonder who trades at lannisport
The three big trade cities are gulltown, white harbour,and lannisport
The other two are near essos
So who trades at lannisport?

Gull town and White Harbour are further from Lys, Tyrosh, and Volantis, and also are in weather that most Essosi find horrible. Gull town is small, and does not have decent ship-repair facilities, while White Harbour is even further North, and is about the same size. Lysians, Volantenes, and Tyroshi trade there for furs, Northern Lumber, Jewelry, and whatever the riverlands produce. This means Lannisport is the only place connected to the road network that has easy access to Volantis, which makes Westerosi merchants prefer it.

Even then,the trip to lannisport is fucking long compared to the trip to gulltown and white harbour
One city i forgot to mention is kinglanding which is right next to essos has good weather
How would kinglanding also not kill lannisport?

Kings Landing suffers from being a Capital city (So tariffs are always higher), and it is not designed for trade, (No expansive docks, no designated market). Also, to reach it, Volantenes and Lysians (who have the rarest and best goods) have to go through the pirate infested Stepstones. So the most important trade hub and the one with the rarest stuff (Summer Isles access) are safer taking the longer journey to Lannisport. Also, Lannisport has been a trading port for longer than Kings Landing has existed. So alot of Essosi Merchants have inherited connections there (My father recommended you as a supplier of xyz)

Also, lanisport and the Lannisters in particular have tons of gold. They could pay well above the "market price" for goods in Kings Landing which would make trade more lucrative there. It would also allow trade galleys to stop at Oldtown, another major trade port, along the way.

>Also, to reach it, Volantenes and Lysians (who have the rarest and best goods) have to go through the pirate infested Stepstones. So the most important trade hub and the one with the rarest stuff (Summer Isles access) are safer taking the longer journey to Lannisport

Maybe, but remember Lannisport is the closest major trade hub to the Ironborn. Even before the war there would likely be a risk of "renegade" Ironborn pirating ships approaching Lanisport.

Far less risk of Iron Born while whatever Lannister is in power is maintaining the fleet. Thats probably why Tytos began bleeding money, since he wasn't harsh enough against the Ironborn. Its probably about the same risk of Ironborn sailing from Volantis to Kings Landing as it is from Volantis to Lannisport, given how wide ranging they are.

>using the show as evidence

I have no idea if you mean in the context of the show or in the context of our history.

If you're trying to argue from the perspective of actual feudalism, not really. Historically feudal land titles didn't outstrip the buying power of gold until the twilight of feudalism. The conversion of land into money wasn't fully realized until the 17th century. Before that we see a much more intimate relationship between master and tenant in the feudal system, responsibilities to each other means that lords couldn't simply deprive their subjects of the fruits of their labor because of both social and hierarchical responsibilities to look after and defend them. However, gold was a much more immediate source of capital. Land by itself doesn't compare since rents could very easily be offset by upkeep, and there wasn't an easy way to keep any kind of standard for prices on what your farm produced. A bad harvest or god forbid famine could entirely fuck the returns on your land investment. The exception to this is strategic fortresses and towns, which if focused on a trade choke point could be immensely profitable. That comes with its own setbacks of course, Burghers were their own class of people that you depended on and guild could be a major pain in the ass with their price regulations, all in a relatively small area of land. This changes by the 17th century however and the towns become much more important and mechanization allows for improvements to production and sharp distancing between lords and their subjects.

Source: CV Wedgewood, The Thirty Years War, first couple of chapters. It's a good read.

When did he say that? According to the wiki people are fairly certain that it's round

Yeah, but nobody can cross the other direction, something kills them. So it's moot

He was always a Tolkien wannabe who substituted violence and senseless death when his writing ability has failed him.
He has stated that he has generally been intentionally vague on timing to prevent plot issues.
I imagine actual economics would be the same.
He'll probably die before finishing the series.

>People forgetting that the Lannisters have spent all their money keeping the crown afloat.
>Literally in debt to the Tyrell's
>Literally arranged marriages for high ranking Lannisters to secure alliance with Tyrell's and funding.

Lannisters being rich is a Westeros meme, like it's cold in the north and Winter is coming. Like the Starks being serious cunts and the north remembers. It was the case at one point. But the times they are a changin

So theoretically, the Dornish could open a port with lower tariffs and cut the Lannister's legs out from under them.
If the geography allows that, they might be situated at a massive cliff for all I know.

Russia barely owns its Muslim territories, though. They're Russia insofar as someone can draw them inside the line on a map. Same with Siberia, where the the official pecking order (from least the greatest) goes:
>Russians
>Siberians
>Golden Eagles
>"The Frost"

no

>Wealth to a peasant is grain to fill his belly
>Wealth to a lord is gold in his coffers

Sure does smell a lot like manure in this thread.

>>Golden Eagles
>>"The Frost"
Elaborate please

>showfags