/5eg/ - Fifth Edition General

>no 9th level spell
Shit gish

Paladin of the Red Lady.

Bitch, this is 5e. Being a paladin requires neither a god nor an alignment. There is nothing stopping you from flavoring one as an arcane swordsman. As stupid as hell as I think that is.

NOTHING.

I'm playing a Polearm Master Paladin soon to hit level 4 and don't know whether I should take a feat or a ASI. I rolled pretty good, so I could get strength to 20. For feats I'm torn between Great weapon master or Sentinel, but my main concern with the latter is that I heard it can make building encounters really annoying for the DM and I don't want to fuck him over as he still gets used to encounter building. Anyone here who played or played with someone using Polearm Master + Sentinel able to give me some advice?

Also, more importantly: Glaive or halberd?

What about Warlock? And I hate hexblades and love regular bladepacts. Archfey Bladelocks are tricksy fun.

>And I hate hexblades and love regular bladepacts.
Step 1: take Hex Warrior feature.
Step 2: give it to all bladelocks at 3rd level.
Step 3: bladelocks at least somewhat fixed.

Consider giving them thirsting blade/lifedrinker for free so they aren't as fucked over for utility invocations.

Chill, EK and Hexblade scratch what little gish itch I have. Just saying god worshipping or not the paladin spell list is like 90% holy flavored, as it should be.

Depends on the character. Western? Halberd. Eastern? Glaive. My favorite polearm character was my Guan Yu paladin.

Stats are important as are feats but if your DM is still learning how to build encounters, don't fuck him over by making him learn to build for a Polearm Master + Sentinel + Great Weapon Master character. It'll fuck him over in the long run and any other players.

You don't need 20 STR at 4th level so I'd suggest bulking up CON or CHA if you can.

Any thoughts or experience with the viability of 2/6 War Magic and X Eldricth Knight?

Does War Wizards Power Surge feel really useless to anyone else? It seems too limiting, what if I never fight creatures that cast spells so I could never counterspell or dispell magic? Why does it only affect one target and not the whole spell (Fireball or Magic Missile would be great with this)? I know Empowered Evocation does that, but they can do it infinitely War Wizards have a limited number of users (1) per short rest and per turn.

Do i only have one Mystic Arcanum per long rest?

I feel like its better to just play an EK/Abjuration wizard. INT to initiative and Durable Magic is nice, but I don't think it can stand up to the ward and buffed up counterspells and dispell magic.

>just reflavor it brah
kys

>Does War Wizards Power Surge feel really useless to anyone else?
No

>It seems too limiting, what if I never fight creatures that cast spells so I could never counterspell or dispell magic?
You still can use it once

>Why does it only affect one target and not the whole spell (Fireball or Magic Missile would be great with this)?
Balance reasons

>I know Empowered Evocation does that, but they can do it infinitely War Wizards have a limited number of users (1) per short rest and per turn.
And War Wizards get bonuses to AC and saves for free

upping Charisma would get me to 20 aswell, so I'd probably be better of with a feat or focusing on constitution. I think Polearm Master + Great Weapon Master without Sentinel should be good enough. I'd probably take resilient (con) for concentration saves so I don't get fugged by Haste, but I don't have an odd Con stat.

Sure is better than hearing the 9001 millionth post bitching about how "there are no good gishes in 5e" when there are a ton.

You gishfags are literally the worst.

How does multiclassing work? Does it reduce the max level you can get in a class or just delay you leveling up your main class?
Does it start over using 1-20 exp tables or do you need to level up fully in the main class before you can multiclass?

>No
What do you see it as?

>You still can use it once
Once for an extra 3 damage to ONE target when you get it? Not worth it IMO.

>Balance reasons
What balance reasons? This has an even more limited use (Once per short rest) than Empowered Evocation, and it's once per turn.

>And War Wizards get bonuses to AC and saves for free
At the cost of their casting yes, If you gave these guys the ability to Power Surge with an AOE spell and they chose to do this they can't do their massive AOE spell and buff it with this feature because they can't cast non-cantrips until next turn. And who knows maybe they will have to do another Arcane Deflection to stay afloat prolonging their time. That's the way the class works, you sacrifice offense for defense and vice versa.

...

>Read the Book Black Man

It's kinda weak, but not too bad. Once per short rest adding half your level damage is a perfectly okay ability to use, not great.

When you do get situations where it's useful against a ton of spellcasters, that's where it shines though. I actually like that it's kind of combining evocation with the Abjurer's dispel and counter buff into an offensive counter.

Depends on your level.

>Sure is better than hearing the 9001 millionth post bitching about how "there are no good gishes in 5e" when there are a ton.
There is no good single class gish in 5E and multiclassing sucks because you get the 3.PF problem where your character start working as intended at around level 6.

Stop being butthurt 5e fails at something, you sperg.

How do I read?

Fixed it for you.

Also you , butthurt gishfag :^)

Like you just did

Evokers get half damage on cantrips at that level and there's no save against power surge.

>I actually like that it's kind of combining evocation with the Abjurer's dispel and counter buff into an offensive counter.

Agreed I love the way it's putting the two classes together, thematically its a fantastic image and feature, mechanically though I just feel it's a little lackluster. If it added the damage to the spell I would like it a lot more.

You are aware that there are about 18+ different ways you can play a Gish? Try a Stone Sorcerer/Hexblade, Eldritch Knight/Abjuration Wizard, or anything on this list.

>Once for an extra 3 damage to ONE target when you get it? Not worth it IMO.
It scales with your level,and cosys you nothing

>This has an even more limited use (Once per short rest) than Empowered Evocation, and it's once per turn
Of course it has, you get it earlier and Evocation is the school you go if want to focus solely on damage

War Wizard is good as it is, no need to buff it even further

...

Storm Sorcerer, Bladesinger or GWM Hunter?

It requires a pretty big dip into Wiz though for the improved Counterspell. At that level you may as well stay Wizard. Arcane Deflection and Tactical Wit obly require 2 levels. Power Surge needs 6. I gigure it'd synergize well with EK. AD could even let me save spell slots I would otherwise use on Shield. And I wonder how Power Surge interacts with Booming Blade or GFB.

True, but at the same time the Evocation Wizard still will do more damage. They can use Toll the Dead every turn with guaranteed damage and when they cap their INT they are still doing more consistent damage than these guys would be doing with this feature.

>It scales with your level,and cosys you nothing
It cost you 1 power surge, for an extra 3-10 extra damage added to one target. Its just a bit lackluster to me is all.

>Of course it has, you get it earlier and Evocation is the school you go if want to focus solely on damage
Agreed! You should be going to Evocation for damage, these guys are not going be doing as much consistant damage as the Evocation guys who will be magic missiling every single turn and doing some pretty wild damage. While you will only do that one (Or more if you can counterspell) times per short rest.

>War Wizard is good as it is, no need to buff it even further
I think its alright as is, I just kinda wish this feature was a little better is all.

Kill yourself, gishbaby

>With 6 levels into Wizard, I wonder how Power Surge interacts with Booming Blade or GFB.
When you cast BB/GFB, and you hit you can cause the target to take an extra 3 points of force damage. If you can counterspell more or dispell magic more you can pull this off a couple of more times per short rest/long rest.

>It requires a pretty big dip into Wiz though for the improved Counterspell. At that level, you may as well stay Wizard.
I like EK 7-10/Wizard 10-13 due to the increased spell list, spell slots, War Magic, extra attack, and Action Surge (Double Fireballs!). It feels pretty good. In both cases for either Abjuration or War Wizard their 10th level features work really well with EK so, in the end, its up to you.

>you can totally play a gish if you don't mind not getting anything actually iconic for a gish until ten sessions in or never at all
I guess we can remove the Barbarian and Monk then because you could totally play them just with the Fighter.

>pathetic soyboy whiteknighting Mearl's shitty design
kek

Eldritch Knight Fighter
College of Valor Bard
College of Swords Bard
Bladesong Wizard
Hexblade Warlock
Any type of Paladin
Multiple Rangers

Yup sure is lacking good gishes! None of them are better than fighters while also being better casters than wizards!

see
nice strawman.

>OH SHIT, I'M A TOTAL RETARD!
>QUICK! IF I SCREAM STRAWMAN PEOPLE WON'T REALIZE I'M A RETARD EVEN THOUGH THE ARGUMMENT ISN'T A STRAWMAN AT ALL!

user, pls.

Man, this gish-hate-brigade is almost ass sad as those 4E revivalists.

All these young whippersnappers should be happy with Fighter 10 Wizard 10 like we were in the olden days! Heck, back then elf was a CLASS! All this whinin and carryin-on sure grinds my gears, these kids don't know how good they got it these days!

How do we fix Rangers?

You seem upset someone is pointing out flaws in the system. Are you autistic? Do you need a go in your hugbox?

>Gishcuck thinking he has a right to an opinion

It's because gishfags literally won't be happy until they get a special snowflake class that's a stronger martial than fighters, stronger caster than wizard, and has unique features that neither of those classes get on top of that. And they come to whine about it EVERY SINGLE TIME, then fall back on "UGH, REFLUFFING SUX!" when they're told the answer to their problems.

If they went back to they original 7 I'd be happy honestly.

See the issue with gish is, it's literally just someone with arcane magic and a weapon. Originally it was just a Fighter/Wizard but now it's arcane magic with a weapon in any possible way.

Saying there are no good ways to do this is false, Eldritch Knight is very good. There's 100 other fucking options to make it as well but that's the most iconic one. The thing is, in a game where every second fucking subclass is just magic/weapon hybrid, there doesn't really need to be a class at this point. If there is an Arcane half-caster down the line, it will likely be Artificer, because it covers a gap that actually exists.

As a gish lover there's more then enough bullshit pandering to the archetype and I'd rather get more non-magic shit.

The worst part is EK/Wizard is actually one of the best ways to get the "gish" these people talk about.

How do I make the most of a paladin of the crown, mechanicly?

The problem with gishes in 5e is not that they are nonfunctional, it is that they feel rather shit to play at lower levels. You will often lack significant ways to actually combine magic and attacking, and you end up feeling like a shitty paladin.

If you get to lv 7+. gishes start feeling like actual gishes and become fun, satisfying characters to play. The problem with this is that most campaigns end up dying and never actually getting to this point, starting in the 1-7 range in most cases. So if you build gishes, you end up feeling rather lackluster most of the time, if not always.

>Accuse someone of strawmanning when they're not.
>Strawman very next post.

user, pls.

>Hey, you can't play this archetype at all except with some specific multiclassing that kicks in mid levels
>HUURRRR DUURRR WHY YOU WANT SPESHUL SNOWFLAKE FUCK OFF HOW DARE YOU WANT A FUNCTIONING CLASS
why does this upset you so?

Step one - cast Spirit Guardians
There is no step two

>Hey, you can't play this archetype at all
Are all gishbabies that retarded, or is that just you? Wait, don't answer that.

>is that most campaigns end up dying and never actually getting to this point
For starters I'm pretty damn sure the Wizards survey say that people don't get to high level play. In a game where 10 is mid level, plenty of groups get to 10.

There's lots of characters that are shit at low levels, shit at mid levels or shit at high levels. Getting upset one specific archetype doesn't feel full developed until the late low level is kinda retarded, because the game is originally balanced around people playing more then level 5.

>you can totally play a gish if you don't mind not getting anything actually iconic for a gish until ten sessions in or never at all

To push this Stone Sorcerer/Hexblade for you, Have you tried the smite spells? BB + Thunderous Smite works pretty well. Quickenspell can be a nice alternative to PF Magus Spell Combat, Twinned Spell can also be a great source for your cantrips like BB or 1st level spells like Chromatic Orb or something. That's not including the Hexblade levels which grant you curses, more smite spells, a smite feature, free magic weapons, and Charisma to attacks.

It's going to take time to do what you are trying to do, UNLESS you choose to play an Eldritch Knight (Action Surge can do some wild things with spellcasters, Hold person into Action Surge into a DEX/STR Save spell or Extra attack is pretty painful), Vengence Paladin gets a ton of Arcane Spell options with the Smite Spells and Divine Smite. Valor Bards are similar to EKs in that they have a ton of spellcasting options and at level 14 get Improved War Magic for Bard spells.

Functioning gish classes LITERALLY EXIST though. You fags just never wana refluff.

Which is literally just a fall back excuse for "WAHH! MY GISH CLASS ISN'T BETTER THAN FIGHTER AND WIZARD AT THE SAME TIME!"

Is there any Zoomer class out there that isn't overpowered shit or some kind of Flash knockoff? I just want to be Max lads

You're literally wasting your time trying to explain anything to gish fags. See the image here

There are three problems with gishes. 1. Nobody can agree on what they want the gish to do. 2. Everybody on the design team thinks extra attack is the only way to make a gish, 3. Nobody knows what extra attack is worth.

Currently a caster and a martial are about equal in combat potential, with the caster edging out the martial with the way most people play (long rests after every encounter). The martial has higher single target and resourceless damage (though hexblade eldritch blast also reaches this peak), and the caster has much higher AoE damage and control, at the cost of resources.

What do you give up from the caster side to get the extra attack? Everything a caster has is interesting, usually usable outside of combat. Extra attack, in comparison, is boring as shit and only usable in combat. So what feature of casting do you give up for extra attacks and still have a satisfying class? None. You can't do it.

Make a gish based around maneuvers instead. Let them trade in spell slots for superiority dice. That would be interesting. It would be engaging to play with. It would still have use outside of combat. It wouldn't totally shit on the battle master, since the battlemaster still has 1-3 more attacks per turn than the gish would (not giving it extra attack). Give the gish class unique maneuvers that reflect the slightly magical aspect of it. And finally, give the gish fag the ability to buff himself with concentration. I'll hammer something out later today.

no quick build for good EK. It's about Feats and execution. Build a defensive but disruptive powerhouse. Get Dueling style, Warcaster Booming Blade and BB AoE, shield master. Get Find Familiar and have it get you advantage on shoves and do non-combat support. Get enlarge or blur. Get Haste. Action surge first turn to buff spell and then make yourself important. Abjuration spells are amazing- Protection from Good and Evil, Absorb Elements, Dispel Magic, Counterspell.
Cast Shield only very rarely- gets crazy AC but being zero threat will just have creatures swarm your allies and ignore you.

>See the issue with gish is, it's literally just someone with arcane magic and a weapon
that's wrong though if you're talking about anything after 2nd ed.

>Eldritch Knight is very good
Eldritch Knight is blatantly a Fighter with a bit magic. Your magic does fuck all except make you tank, which is not the point of a gish. Gishes are about flexibility, not stacking some absurd stats. Look at the Gish classes from 3.5, literally all of them were about increasing offensive melee capabilities through magic.

>There's 100 other fucking options to make it as well but that's the most iconic one
And they all do nothing to increase offensive versatility or kick in after you have two classes at level 3.

>The worst part is EK/Wizard is actually one of the best ways to get the "gish" these people talk about.
If I wanted to wait six fucking levels before becoming relevant I'd go back to playing Pathfinder.

>most people play
>long rests after every encounter
Who the fuck plays like this?

I feel like if the user spends even a few minutes reading any one of these () multiclasses they probably will be satisfied with at least 1 of them.

>still strawmanning
>using arguments that already have been btfo
so this is the power of gish-haters

>What do you give up from the caster side to get the extra attack? Everything a caster has is interesting, usually usable outside of combat. Extra attack, in comparison, is boring as shit and only usable in combat. So what feature of casting do you give up for extra attacks and still have a satisfying class? None. You can't do it.
Just go half-caster?

>I b-b-b-b-btfod you.....
Pathetic

>Look at the Gish classes from 3.5, literally all of them were about increasing offensive melee capabilities through magic.

It sounds to me like you would enjoy playing a Paladin

>arguments that have BTFO
Bruh, it's literally been half a dozen people telling you why you have options. Covering your ears and screaming "STRAWMAN!" repeatedly doesn't count as "BTFO".

This post isn't doing much to disprove the whole "gishfags want to do as much damage as a fighter but have all the tools of a wizard" thing. Quite the opposite, really.

>Let them trade in spell slots for superiority dice.

Trading a long rest resource for a short rest resource is a pretty bad trade.

Most people play with two to three fights per long rest

I feel if you took even a few minutes to read the fucking thread you'd see that literally every of these options either

-provides literally no features expected of a gish (arcane magic extending your combat potential)
or
-kicks in after leveling two classes which makes it garbage to actually play in any average campaign.

reposting this because i only got 1 reply last thread: I'm going to a level 16 one shot this Saturday taking place in the deep underdark, with underdark races for characters encouraged

fun ideas? was thinking of playing a duergar of some persuasion but I'm open to other suggestions

Honestly, even outside of gish stuff most characters should really have more out of combat potential. The fighter is utterly pitiful there and really could have done with some non-combat features.

Did Eldritch Smite made Pal2/Warlock+ obsolete?

>all of this class' features are clearly built to represent a divine warrior
>just ignore that brah
again, can we delete the barbarian then? You can just play a fighter :^DDD

So you have no idea what you're talking about? Next time just feel free to say you're a non-functional retard right from the start. Thanks.

>can't read
>still comments
how the fuck does that work? Do you dictate to your tard-wrangler?

Wow, it's almost like ALL the classes in the game suck at low level and take awhile to get going. Sorry you can't do everything at level 1. I truly feel sorry for your unfair situation.

How is multiclass garbage? If you think no lvl9 spells means garbage, then you have a silly definition of garbage. If you really want 9th spells, just play a bladelock.

>provides literally no features expected of a gish (arcane magic extending your combat potential)
>kicks in after leveling two classes which makes it garbage to actually play in any average campaign.
Hexblade. Stone Sorcerer. Eldritch Knight.

In fact EK is literally a character extending their combat abilities with casting buff spell on themselves. I'm really not getting this.

Ruling is that Warlock can only spend Pact Magic slots on Eldritch Smite, so you better pick those Smites carefully.

If you don't want a divine character you can play a Hexblade.

>no argument
ok

I love how this entire 5eg thread has been one gishtard whining and everyone else pointing out how retarded his kind are.

EK is also unique that lets you blast and slash on the same turn. My only gripe with EK is the level requirement to activate that blast and slash. Before level7 it feels two half-classes instead of one gishy whole

But then again, I'm only inconvenienced about that because we always start at lvl1.

How do you argue against someone who covers their ears and literally refuses to hear counter-arguments that are objective fact? It's like trying to argue with a religious extremist.

>Hexblade. Stone Sorcerer. Eldritch Knight.
>a EB turret, UA, garbage at anything offensive
thank you for the conversation

There's a difference between being a usual level 1 and literally not having the entire point of your archetype available until level 6. A barbarian can rage at 1, a wizard can cast at 1, there's nothing that makes you spell-melee at 1.

But you're using pact magic slots for a regular smite anyway, since pal2 has only 1 lvl1 spell slot.

So I guess Eldritch *is* superior, unless you're allergic to hexblade. Which I am.