/swg/ Pointless Bickering Edition

Man, it's been a while since we've hit some of these squares.

That would honestly look really cool. I'd like to see even something like 'An old seperatist engineer with an old droidika bodyguard' or something.

An ex-separatist or the child of an ex-separatist is my go to RPG character for Rebellion era campaigns.

You can't tell me what to do!

AND IT SHOULD BE NAMED "FREE MARKET"

>A resurrected Grievous sneaks out from under Palps throne and decks him with a steel chair to the back of the head

This but unironically.

I kinda wish Kalani stayed more relivant in rebels, or maybe if they had brought Gizor Delso out of BF2 which adds trying to avenge his people to his motivations for his droid rebellion attempt

That's odd timing

Maybe he'll be used for one of these:

starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Confederacy_of_Corporate_Systems

starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Separatist_Union

I distinctly remember the Rebels using a Lucrehulk to attack the Death Star once.

It, uh, didn't go well.

I've got that for a Force and Destiny game some time. Turns out that Separatist Parents don't like to hand over force sensitive babies to the guys acting as generals for the Republic. A gigantic fangirl of Dooku with zero idea that he was a Sith and a massive collection of basically everything he wrote and video after video of him back when he was a dueling master in the jedi order.

The GM let all that compiled information count as a Holocron, ruleswise.

...

>Not "Anarcho-Capital"

Heh, alas we can't pull a maul with him when his brains were detonated

Wasnt this the old Death Star novel?

>Filthy capitalists sighted
>run out all guns!

Yeah, he's pretty much fucked. Damn Obi for shanking all our favourite bad guys.

That's the one, yeah.

I need a little help putting together a dark jedi villain for my game. I want him to not use a lightsabre, but also not be cut to ribbons instantly the moment a fight starts, but I also want to keep it subtle and not shit out lightning in every direction. So I'm trying the following:

Force powers focused on Protect, for defensive purposes, and Harm, so he can use a sort of killing hands technique on offense. Combing those with an artifact equivalent of the Talisman of Iron Fists will I think let him actually catch a lightsaber, which could lead to a nice "Oh shit" moment.

Here we have a separatist engaging with the hand of the market.

Phrik and cortosis are your friends, as is Mandalorian iron (bonus if your villain only has the one gauntlet capable of grabbing a lightsaber blade). Give him a cortosis-weave cape, it's expensive but will stop blaster bolts (or fluff-wise it's supposed to).

>#notmyInvisibleHand

I'd like to see or have seen more stories of Seps joining the Empire.

Man, targeting computers looked really weird back in the day.

Enhance is fairly good, it enables your villain to be a bit more mobile and bounce out of places they would get wrecked. Usually this happens when the PC's nope out back to their space truck and try to level the area from orbit.

I don't see why they would do so willingly, considering the Empire is still the same Republic they fought against.

How do you feel about swords or staves or the like? It could ostensibly be for ornamental or ceremonial purposes, but actually be lined with phrik/cortosis/beskar/force imbued/whatever.

Money isn't an issue for the guy, so much as access. Being from a bum-ass part of the galaxy means finding rare stuff can be difficult regardless of wealth.

I'm hoping the general gist of the guy will be that he's remarkably unsubtle when it comes to violence and hostility, but incredibly difficult to pick out as a force-user by not having a lightsaber or any particularly showy force powers. The sort of guy who would pick a fight in front of a pack of stormtroopers, knowing they'd go after the people with the lightsabers and not him, and also that he could probably kill an entire group bare-handed if they don't draw their weapons.

I have one out for him, a computer back up of his mind kept in real time via his suit

Dooku Was Right t-shirts on every collage campus in the New Republic. He become that odd pretentious ideology uni-kids can have while not supporting the enemies that still exist.

Naturally the various Dooku societies hate each other for each taking different reading s from Dooku's writings.

Stances can change.

>A sepritist movement based on the central government having to much restrictive power will be somehow be more enamoured by an EVEN MORE centralised government

It would be a very rare response.

Everything is weird in soviet space.

Yeah the other cheesy alternative I was fumbling around with was a sort of remote controlled Grievous droid being shot by Obi. Which is kind of pushing the limits of PC's believability, but not entirely implausible. Hell, there was only one witness and he went off and got stabbed on the murder ball by Vader later on.

Enhance is probably important. Fighting while outnumbered is going to need a lot more of a boost to keep from getting held down and just beat on.

The Iron Hands talisman gives his armor and brawl attacks into [Cortosis] quality, which should in theory skip over the need for a weapon. A lot of hopes for this guy is that he's always going to be in a bad place for the PCs to deal with, either too many people around, too much security, or a few high ranking fellows who it would be very bad to show off in front of.

Except it was also opposed to the Republic's economic restrictions and stagnation. The Empire's economy and the corporate flourishing, even if a lot of corporate power was consolidated into the government itself, would be appealing.

the corporate interests that baked the CIS, I could very easily see turning over to the empire, but the actual ideological separatists, no way

Yes but was that a free market or was the propping up of corporate entities to act as another aspect of the government in everyday life?

Might not be a bad idea. He'd just pushed himself into his next incomplete armored body in an attempt to double-team Obi Wan by surprise, but due to a failure of the equipment, his new body was not able to engage until well after his old body was destroyed.

Also, wasn't he a cyborg? Wouldn't that mean his brain would need to be moved entirely, and something like a droid brain left in place then?

AoR talks on this a bit. On the one hand, the Empire is the successor-state of the Republic and the Rebel Alliance is fighting to overthrow it. On the other hand, those rebels are... the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and the Empire followed through on eliminating things that the CIS hated about the Old Republic such as dissolving the senate. On the third hand, the CIS was pretty passionate about independence, an unregulated economy, and basically "states rights" which are things that neither side of the GCW really embodies. An old Separatist would have reasons for joining or fighting either side, really.

The only problem I can see with Grievous surviving the way you're wanting to here (beyond the obvious retconning of the film) is that Kenobi would absolutely know that it wasn't actually Grievous there - he certainly was close enough to see the remaining living bits that Grievous had left.

MIDICHLORIANS, SON. THEY HARDEN IN RESPONSE TO PHYSICAL TRAUMA.

I recently had a Halloween one-shot where the "monster" was someone with extreme cybernetic combat enhancements, except his organic body had died and decayed long ago leaving just a feral brain implant with combat programming going around killing anything it found. Maybe "Grievous" died when Obi-wan burned up his meaty bits, but the robot shell was somehow reactivated?

Maybe. His old backstory leaves that definitely a possibility because I think they did mess with his memories some; his canon backstory (which I'll admit isn't as great, but it's not as grimderp either) of upgrading himself doesn't to my knowledge leave that really as a possibility as I don't believe he had any upgrades to his brain done.

Then again, this is not only your game so you can switch things around, but also FFG material draws primarily from Legends anyway.

"Fuck it, the body's still in alright shape. Make a new head, stick in a tactical droid brain, and force feed it our entire databank of historical and propaganda stuff about grievous. Let's say, eight thousand playthroughs, four at a time. That oughtta condition the droid brain into thinking about the same as the original."

That, with less muscle wizard and more old school Jet Li. Harm being slightly fluffed into a sort of cell rot, where being hit causes the skin to turn black and flake off as if it had been burned to shit in an instant, but only hurting about as much as a normal punch at first.

Yeah, he may have to stay dead unless I can think of a more convincing way of it happening via brain in a box scenario.

Though, if there's anyone who has managed to dodge the reaper more times than practically anyone- Admiral Trench. I mean shit, Anakin just shanked him, made some jokes and ran off before the ship blew up, so there's plenty of chances that he managed to scurry off and live to annoy people another day.

DARK GREETINGS Luke-

Did I ever tell you about the Mouse and his Shekels? They were a professional wrestler who loved their money so much, that he tried to become a light-side Sith to appease all of the fanboys at once. The consumers turned on him and killed hi in his sleep. Ironic- They could protect others with plot armor, but not themselves.

He was a good friend.

That was pretty much what they did in SWG, N-K Necrosis

I always liked to imagine trench shaking up with the rebles if he had lived

Since the Empire subsequently painted the Jedi Order as being in league with Separatists (and given how Dooku always portrayed himself was a Jedi dissatisfied with a misguided order), I want to see a fanatically pro-jedi Separatist. Just some guy who drank a sufficient combination of Imperial and Separatist kool-aid to think that the Jedi Order was on the CIS' side the whole time and were separatists the whole time.

My personal thought on the guy is that eventually he gets captured and tossed into a deep, dark prison somewhere. If the rebs could find and spring him, they'd have a heck of a partner to work with (albeit one who probably recalls all the times he spent wrecking the shit of all the other people on the alliance generalship.)

In terms of commanders the CIS had, he was relatively effective considering he had to go up against the toughest jedi and experienced admirals the Republic could scrape together in one spot, then all the other space-magic stealth ships to actually take him down.

It could be kind of an old former enemies bro moment too with Bail Organa working together to defeat something far worse.

>If the rebs could find and spring him, they'd have a heck of a partner to work with
Why would they want to ally themselves with a guy who loses in every single one of his appearances?

Someone has to fill Hobbie Klivian's niche in Rogue Squadron when he's stuck in sickbay.

Their mistake was letting a man with a lightsaber be a part of their organization. They had legitimate grievances and if it hadn't been for palpatine and Dooku manipulating them behind the scenes they probably would have been a moderately successful short term political movement that would have let to senate reforms. Dooku and Sheev encouraged outright secession which escalated matters concerningly. Its no surprise that there were no senate reforms or any serious challenge against Sheev in the senate when all the firebrands and radicals against power left already.

The real question is - how much of those grievances would actually be worth fighting over if the Sith weren't there exacerbating the problems? I'm willing to bet almost none of them, maybe the power of the corporations being enough to grant them a seat in the galactic Senate, but literally every complaint they had or everything we saw that they did was done as directed by Palpatine or Dooku.

I wonder how many Republic and CIS veterans lived long enough to realize that the war they'd fought was a sham, and how much alcohol they consumed while trying to come to terms with how many people didn't have to die.

Palpatine's influence was mostly in the Senate, and only then in the Republic's last years.

The Republic itself was just always pretty shitty, stagnant, corrupt, and rotting. The Sith could've been a non-factor and the problems would've still be there, just without Palpatine ruling both sides.

most of the time, what sheevy P did was not so much make things worse as ensure the republic made an utter hash of all attempts to actually FIX the many problems that were going on

Hmmm... A New Dawn had a clone wars veteran who was a bit kooky, a demolitions specialist.

Most of the people who would actually know that the war was a sham were Palpatine's inner circle or the few Senators who were allied with the Jedi like Bail, and Mon Mothma.

The actual soldiers wouldn't know. The clones were forcibly retired in nucanon, but aside from killing the Jedi while under sway of their brainchips, the few we've seen after still seem to think they were mostly in the right.

There's nothing indicating that any of the Republic's issues weren't the creation of the Sith; in Legends it was even "canon" that the Sith had been working on twisting the Republic for generations, for at least 100 years before the Clone Wars.

He actively was corrupting the Jedi Temple, however, which did in fact make things worse, noticeably so by some of the members of the Jedi Order like Yoda who openly stated that a large number of the Jedi were growing more and more arrogant.

that is true, and why I said 'mostly' not 'all the time'

It's hard to consider their grievances *truly* legitimate, though, when pretty much everything was orchestrated by Ol' Sheevy P. He manipulated forces within the Republic to be catastrophically ineffective, then he'd put on his cloak and tell the Trade Fed & friends how bad the Republic was and convince them to do dumb shit like blockade Naboo, then he'd take his cloak off and go back to the Senate and sabotage opportunities for peaceful resolution. The Separatist movement and formation of the CIS are direct results of Palpatine's machinations, and the grievances they had with the Republic were largely created by those same machinations; neither of which were "natural" forces.

If you take him out of the picture, say he was never born, it's hard to predict how the galaxy would have turned out. Was a civil war inevitable? We know Valorum wasn't super popular, and the Trade Federation had militarized and was bullying planets unchecked, but those elements may have been initiated by Palpy to begin with.

Which is all to say, that the CIS had grievances with the Republic because Palpatine deliberately constructed a scenario in which they would.

Why take the clones out back and shoot them? They are perfectly serviceable force expansion methods that can be supplimented with conscripts and recruits

Because if YOU can program their microchips to do stuff for you, others can do the same. They were a liability at that point.

Some CW veterans lived to see the end of the Galactic Empire. I'd wager that Pellaeon would eventually find out after becoming Grand Admiral.

they were literally retired, not "retired"
they were forced out of the military and canonically mostly ended up bitter drunks doing low-end jobs while aging twice as fast

Basically this. Palpatine didn't "create" the problems the Republic had, he just exacerbated them and brought them to a head, then took credit for fixing them (which he did, but since he was in control it wasn't too much of a feat).

There's also nothing to indicate the Republic's problems all originate with the Sith. The Jedi doing a reverse Order 66 on them left them pretty minor for a very long time, and most of what they did was on a small scale. The Republic always had problems, and it, along with the Jedi themselves, were stagnating and growing in problems and difficulties. The Sith took advantage of them to try to fix these issues with their own vision, but they didn't create all of them.

Palpatine's a master manipulator, but he's not responsible for everything that was wrong with the Republic. His influence made up a few decades at most of a Republic that'd been fucked up internally for nearly a milennia.

Even NuCanon with its "all evil is the dark side" trite doesn't put all the blame for the Republic's problems on the Sith.

Because clones required a lot of expense and a lot of upkeep. The Republic was already going bankrupt to afford them all, and they were almost entirely reliant on one group of shifty aliens who could betray them at any point.

Clones required so much upkeep and investment, and their incredibly short lifespans meant that they couldn't be effective for a long-term galaxy-wide defensive force. With the Empire's more expansive military policies, it was much easier to recruit men into a standing Army, then take a portion of them and give them elite training to form a clone-like Stormtrooper Corps, than it was to have clones do everything.

Also meant a lot more job opportunities for billions of humans and near-humans, which helped the economic side of things. Unemployment was one of the Republic's biggest problems, at least as far as EU goes.

The clones weren't treated badly or murdered, just literally retired. Sent off to civilian lives.

gegghead On twitch

Has got Wittwer, Freddie Prinze jr., and Taylor Gray on stream playing EAfront 2.

They're talking up their EotE campaign and stuff.

They weren't taken out back and shot, they were given desk jobs or forcibly retired - all the ones in active service, anyway, as we know that clones kept in Imperial service at least past Yavin, though that clone was a young one, probably from one of the last batches.

Remember, this army nearly bankrupted the Republic as it was. Palpatine needed a cheaper source of soldiers for the New Order, so he turned to recruits, not clones.

We don't know how much if any influence that Plagueis had on the downfall of the Republic in canon (most of what we know of him is what is shown in RotS, with a bit from the Tarkin novel as well), but he definitely was involved in Legends, as was his predecessor. So you've got multiple generations of Sith working on the Republic, twisting it and corrupting it there.

>Palpatine's a master manipulator, but he's not responsible for everything that was wrong with the Republic. His influence made up a few decades at most of a Republic that'd been fucked up internally for nearly a milennia.
>Even NuCanon with its "all evil is the dark side" trite doesn't put all the blame for the Republic's problems on the Sith.
Sure, but that wasn't my point. My point was to comment on whether or not the Separatists had legitimate grievances with the Republic, when the Separatist movement was manufactured entirely by Palpatine and the Republic had been manipulated into becoming what it was by Palpatine as well. Can the legitimate grievances of an illegitimate organization against a corrupt organization, both led by the same man, truly be legitimate?

Photo proof.

Ahh so the kamino secret rebellion kinda nipped in the bud

Pretty much. Palpatine was too smart to leave the base of his army's power in the hands of the Kaminoans, who are alluded in the EU to have likely had some backstabbing intentions from the getgo. They were very secretive, but also very shifty and manipulative themselves.

Sure, Palpatine and Plagueis did work to amplify some of the Republic's problems in order to fix the problems they helped create later to bring about the Empire and the plan of a Sith utopia, but that was over the span of just about 100 years at the very most. Other Sith before them hadn't done nearly as much as they had, and even still he and his master weren't responsible for EVERY problem in the Republic. That'd just be absurd. The Republic was already having issues even right after the Sith got 66'd and were almost nonexistent in the galaxy for a long while afterward.

You could interpret this as the galaxy being unbalanced in the Force and that causing trouble, or playing into the theme of power corrupting you, or just plain overbloat and inefficiency when trying to manage a galaxy of a trillion people.

Lucas always said his original vision was meant to clash with Star Trek - it wasn't meant to be a bright, hopeful, or unified universe where the only threats were external. It was grimy, dark, (lightly) gritty, and everyone and anyone could be a selfish asshole. Not grimdark by any means and borrowing heavily from old serials, but the intent to compete with the then-dominant scifi universe was clearly stated time and again, and the EU carried that theme (when the EU actually managed to work and be good).

Jedi, Sith, Republic, Imperial, Rebel, Alliance, Separatist, Scum, Independent - no matter who was in charge, they would always face problems, because you just can't unify that many people. It isn't possible.

Saying "the Republic had problems" is very different from saying that the Separatist movement was a foregone conclusion.

If the Separatists aimed to fix the Republic's problems, and the Republic had problems, how was it foregone?

The Seps were super corrupt too, not just Palpatine, but even still they did have a goal in mind that could have theoretically worked. For themselves, at least.

The Separatists only got to the level they were at through intervention by Palpatine and Dooku.

Apparently Jett Lucas plays RPGs, and is like fifty feet tall.

Fucking nice. I wanna play EOTE with Witwer.

His honest-to-god first name is Jett and he looks like a stoner Muun. Of course he plays RPGs. It's not like he was getting laid in high school.

THE MAN WAS POSING WITH HIS FATHER AND NEW STEPMOM AT A FILM FESTIVAL WITH A JOINT BEHIND HIS EAR FOR GODS SAKE

Jett is also adopted, just like Amanda and Katie. George only has one biological child, who herself was done through surrogacy.

So, is there a system generally accepted to be 'the best', or is it just a horrible morass of edition warring at the moment?

Depends. FFG is the current hotness, but a lot of people favor D6 since it literally built the EU. Saga people dislike because WotC, d20/revised people hate because they're bad d20.

So new mechanics vs historical lust vs the local equivalent of AD&D? Cheers.

Ask someone assisting in the Mandalore Open anything

>If the Separatists aimed to fix the Republic's problems, and the Republic had problems, how was it foregone?
This sentence doesn't make any sense.

>The Seps were super corrupt too, not just Palpatine, but even still they did have a goal in mind that could have theoretically worked. For themselves, at least.

But the point is that the Separatists wouldn't have existed if it weren't for Palpatine.

You mean for the RPG?

There hasn't been much of an edition war since FFG's game came out. D6 is good for some things, FFG is good for others. Saga Edition is good if you're really hardcore about ripping off KOTOR. Prior editions of d20 are for people who can't deal with games that aren't D&D 3.X. Everything has its own niche, there's no real war.

The big weakness with FFG is that the three games that collectively make up the Star Wars FFG system are each tailored to specific campaign concepts (namely Star Wars Firefly for EotE, Star Wars Rebels for Age of Rebellion, and Star Wars X-Men for Force and Destiny), so the GM has to put a fair bit of work and careful thought into how to approach mixed parties or different campaign concepts altogether. It's perfectly doable of course, but it needs a lot of judgment calls about, for instance, what to do re: obligation/duty/morality, and what to do for the "party benefit" stage at the end of character creation (the ship for EotE, the base/ship(s) for AoR, or the holocron/mentor/ship for FaD).

D6 is neat and can just sort of cleanly do whatever you want without a lot of careful prep work, but struggles in its handling of Force characters. Players may not like how it does things there, and it's hard to say whether Force users are underpowered (due to the agonizingly slow progression in building Force skills and learning Force powers) or overpowered (due to Force powers having incredibly potent effects if you can reliably get them off, which doesn't take that long to reach if you optimize).

Saga Edition is literally the 4E beta. Doesn't use the same at-will/encounter/daily progression, though, so it's generally better than 4E ended up actually being. Still, d20, whatever that means to you.

SWd20 is basically the d20 Modern beta, and Revised isn't much different (armor as DR instead of AC but otherwise similar). You probably already know your own opinion on d20 as a system.

The FFG system is, more-or-less, one size fits all. If it's not to your tastes, one of the other two (classic d6 or d20 Saga) will probably be to your liking.

There's not much in terms of edition warring in these generals, as it's pretty openly accepted that each has a number of pros and cons.

But at risk of undermining what I just said...

>Saga people dislike because WotC, d20/revised people hate because they're bad d20.
This isn't really true. Saga people dislike because WotC and because they're bad at d20. Revised people hate because it's a terrible Frankenstein of a system cobbled together from the corpses of 3.0 (pre-3.5) and d20 Modern (itself a piece of shit). If you want Star Wars and you want to be rolling a d20 when you play it, Saga is the only edition a sane person would choose.

Not really. There is no editon warring. Mostly because the playerbase isn't mouthbreathing DnD autists.

FFG Star Wars is very, but is a very narrative focused game and that obviously isn't for everyone, so some people still play D6. That's all there is to it. There is no stupid 'war' going on over it. There are also a few remants of people playing Saga and D20 but my impression has allways been that that is mostly newcomers from more rules dogmatic backgrounds that can't like anything they haven't seen before, so they play d20 or Saga because its d20/old.

But desu I haven't ever seen something even remotely as autistic as DnD edition wars. It's mostly just newbs asking super basic questions followed by a quick summary of the system asked about and the alternatives, and then the thread usually goes on as it allways does.