The Great Debate

Rolling, Stat Array, or Point Buy?

Other urls found in this thread:

anydice.com/program/da15
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Point Buy

Different people have different preferences.

Point buy.

Point buy. Something always goes wrong with rolls

point buy

Also, play gurps

A lot depends on the game you're running and how you're running it, but I do like the idea of randomly-generated scores that are nevertheless balanced, and of having some limited choice in an otherwise random distribution of those scores.

Rolling is best.
>Actually forces players to play characters with flaws
>No min/maxing and no dump stats
>You pick your class or skills based on what you're good at. Occasionally have fun parties, like 3 Fighters and 1 Wizard, instead of every party being the same.
>character creation takes seconds

It's old, and still the best.

3d6 straight down the line

Well point buy leads to more cookie cutter character for a class. The big upside to this however is the fact that it gives players total control over the character and lets them play exactly what they want to play. this personally makes me a lot more invested in my character and they are something that I totally built from the ground up.

Rolling leads to very random results and can limit a player from a class they wanted to play and unbalanced the game by giving one person a few below average stats and another person a few of great stats. The biggest problem here is for the DM as they then need to make challenges for both the player that is overpowered and the player that is underpowered and somehow managed to keep things interesting for both. But many people adore this system as it puts everything in the roll of the die. so it has the classical D&D charm you could say, just let the dice decide

>Rolling
If playing a high lethality game, a one-shot, or a TSR edition of D&D.

>Point Buy
If playing a plot-centric game or an edition of D&D where your ability scores matter far too much.

>Array
Same as point-buy, or if you want to quickly set up new characters.

Point Buy because I can always send the instructions for char gen to my players without having to worry since I'll always be able to verify that the amount of points is the right one

Have fun dealing with a PC that rolled all 18s while the others complain about balance and the fact that one party member has all of his stats below 10

more than the people, it depends on the campaign type and everyone's experience level.

for a long balanced campaign with new or mid-experienced players stat array or point buy might be the best choice because no one will end up with randomly over/understatted characters.
if people are complaining about min-maxing and the fact min-maxer don't roleplay their 6 int score then you choose stat array above point buy; if people point out that some classes are actually unplayable if you don't min-max then you give them the ability to point buy having multiple arrays to choose from is a catchall option..

for a shorter campaign dice rolling becomes an acceptable way to make the whole deal more exciting for some people, but anything works.

dice rolling in a fixed order( the first thing you roll must be your Str etc...) before choosing class should be used only by experienced players or boring players who are used to only play one class, as roleplaying exercise or as an opportunity to be randomly forced to play something different.
the same argument is true for randomly assigned pre-made characters, which are also a mediocre teaching tool for first time players.

choosing class then doing dice rolls into fixed order qualifies as torture.

>>Actually forces players to play characters with flaws
>>No min/maxing and no dump stats
That's what happens ideally. What really happens is one guy gets stuck with a completely shit character while another's lowest stat is a 16

Point buy or go home
the real solution is to play something where point-buy is the only method of chargen

Point buy is best for shitters since they can't scream about bad rolls if they make a shitty character. Random rolls are more fun but less functional overall since you'll inevitably get garbage characters mixed with godly ones.

pls stop forcing this meme

My PF GM had a partial workaround for the low end of the scale. 4d6, discard lowest... And reroll 1's. Statistically speaking, the average score jumps from 9 to 12... Which means the average modifier goes from -1 to +1.

Depends on the game and how much I've had to drink.

>Posting method of generating stats in a "what's the best way to generate stats" thread.
>Lol, it's a just a meme!
Okay, sure buddy.

I prefer rolling.

rolling, but the DM should make minor adjustments
usually I'll adjust a characters stats so that one always gives a bonus, while another gives a penalty

>Take standard array (make one using PB method if your game does not include one)
>Make multiple arrays if you wanna fuck around - generalist array with more consistent mid-range stats, specialist array with a couple really high and low scores, etc
>Plug stats into random.org (or write stat names on index cards, shuffle and draw in order, whatever)
>???
>Profit
All the randomness and "play what you get" of rolling, none of the "I rolled all 6's, user has three 18's".

There's no point discussing it without a group to put it in relation to.

It's about as stupid as arguing about which system is best. Only spergs think there's a best system without specifying what you're going to use it for.

Do the players enjoy the challenge of improvising a character from the limitations given to them? Rolling sounds like a good idea.

Do your players all have really great ideas for what they want to play before they sit down to make their characters? Rolling sounds like a terrible idea.

In the end it will all evolve into a balance-argument anyway because the manchildren at the table think the point of the activity is to all be exactly as good at killing gnolls or whatever.

Your averages are off.

Also
>Rolling stats but inflating the dice so that everyone gets high scores.
For what purpose.

Point buy.

It’s fast and easy, like your mom.

Neither.
The player tells the DM and the group what character they'd really love to play, and together you agree on some compromise that works within the system of the game and the mood of the game you were planning to run, while being more interesting than the original suggestion.

Any system that doesn't involve the other people at the table is already a failure and guaranteed to produce way many special snowflake book protagonist characters.

A player isn't playing their character just for themselves, they're playing it for everyone at the table.

Randomized characters, characters created without any input from anyone else, and characters restricted by arbitrary "level" systems are all just ways of not giving the group what they want, and who the fuck has time for that in a hobby that's already very time-intensive compared to almost anything else you can do.

If the host at movie and beer night told the gang that they can't watch Terminator 2 again unless they watch terminator 1 first or that he was going to roll a dice and maybe it would be Terminator 2, maybe it would be Amelie from Montmarte instead, he would get fucking glassed, but somehow it's still perfectly okay in the year of our lord 2017 to just tell someone for the 10th time that no, we're starting at level one again, or no, we're just rolling our characters.

3d6 in order, no dropping, no rerolling, characters are generally expendable and easily replaced

first hp is rolled not assumed max

I do a similar thing, but use a die to randomise array order. You start with the 16 and roll 1d6. 1=Str, 2=Dex, etc. Write the 16 in the rolled stat. Then the 14, roll to assign, etc. If you roll an already assigned stat, reroll. For a kinder system, if you roll an already assigned stat, you may choose to swap the values out and reassign the higher stat with another roll.

Give your players complete pre-made characters and tell them to suck it up buttercup.

Sounds like you just have a slower, less efficient version.

This is what we do every time a new player joins the group. If they can play that character well and make a positive contribution to the player group despite being saddled with something they didn't create themselves, then they can make something of their own next time, and generally get a lot of help and freedom.

The more conditions you add to the rolls, the more you might as well just give every player the same pile of stats of like 18, 15, 12, 12 or whatever and let them put the numbers on whatever stat they want.

You are basically jumping through hoops in order to make a random roll as unrandom as possible, might as well not be random.

Depends on the system.

It's pretty fast in practise, plus we have a low-electronics table. No laptops, phones, or tablets.
Yeah, the variant isn't my taste. Basically, it's the advantages of an array (as you describe) but with the random allocation of stats that make dungeoncrawling a bit more fun - you don't know exactly what you're going to get so if you get a toon you like you will try harder to keep him alive.

anydice.com/program/da15

With D&D, I roll 13 sets of 3d6 myself and make a ring. Then I give that ring of numbers to each player, and tell them to remove any one number and then take any 6 stats in a consecutive, clockwise order. Everyone gets the same numbers to work with, but you can get a lot of different actual arrays out of it.

rolled array
roll 4d6 drop the lowest 6 times, then distribute

Genesys.

My group rolls and we don’t have any problems.

>The more conditions you add to the rolls, the more you might as well just give every player the same pile of stats of like 18, 15, 12, 12 or whatever and let them put the numbers on whatever stat they want.
The more you warm things above absolute zero, the more you might as well just set people on fire.

The less arguments you have the more you might as well shitpost.

What's the point of rolling for stats when you're just going to arbitrarily decide how high or low their stats can actually be?

If you can't deal with the possibility of someone rolling all 8's or all 18's, you shouldn't be rolling dice in the first place, especially when the game gives you a quick and simple method of determining stats that already has a limit on how high or low it can go.

I think that's right

I came up with my own way of generating stats that I think is superior to all three (but normally I do elite array).

score/cost
14 / 10
13 / 8
12 / 6
11 / 5
10 / 4
9 / 3
8 / 2
7 / 1
6 / 0

THEN
add 1d4 to each score

THEN
add racial bonuses

22 points for a normal game

Point Buy/Stat Array

Rolling only works if you're planning on not playing the character for a long term game or if the game is so lethal that it doesn't really matter how good your stats are because everything outclasses you.

If you're going for point buy, you can decide how good you want your stats to be while still deciding how weak you want your dump stats to be, which adds more customization while still keeping everyone around the same relative power level.

Stat Array is great if you just want to make a character as quickly as possible without going through the rigors of figuring out what you want your stats to be.

I like 3d6 down the line, but that's also because I prefer games with disposable characters and an acceptance of more than one character a player.
If someone's expected to come in with a concept and explore a specific person they've created, I prefer player's choice of point buy or rolled choose order.

Array or point buy. Rolling is only good for comedy games.

The one exception is life path systems, but that necessitates an entirely different style of chargen to the norm.

Rolled 4, 3, 2, 4, 4, 1 = 18 (6d4)

I'm going to be a variant human Fighter.
12
8
12
8
8
8

17 (+1 racial applied)
11
15 (+1 racial applied)
12
12
9

you might be retarded

I wish my group wasn't filled with powergamers who want to play "Big Damn Heroes" all the time. They insisted on filling 5d6, reroll 1's and 2's, drop the two lowest numbers. You end up with at least one 18 and an average of around 15 or something like that. I'd almost prefer they drop any pretense and just always play straight 18's.

I think YOU might be retarded. Actual stats are here
Read next time.

you should have put them in the same post
the 2nd one didnt come up until I'd already posted, and besides, you only used 20 points
>read

I always find the 'Pointbuy leads to powergaming, rolling counters it' argument really confusing. In my experience, it's the opposite.

With pointbuy, since I can reliably assign my characters stats it allows me to select and support non-optimal things and generally focus on properly representing my character, since I have the leeway to do so.

With rolled stats your options are a lot more restricted by what you roll, and you're more incentivised to pick the mechanically optimal options if you're unlucky enough to roll low, just so you can keep up and not let down the rest of the group.

>you should have put them in the same post
Retard, I couldn't put them in the same post because I needed to roll the d4's.

>What really happens is one guy gets stuck with a completely shit character while another's lowest stat is a 16
This basically never happens if you roll up your characters as a group.

But yes, if players have a need to be competitive and permanent character death is rare, then array or point buy is better.

Most old school rolling stat games I've played were kinda lethal, getting to keep your character with superb stats for more than 10 sessions was rare.

Rolling is an artifact from older editions of DnD where you'd need some amazingly bad luck for bad stats to seriously hamper to character, and to not be fit for at least one class (since you more or less only needed to roll above a 9 in str, int, dex or wis and the benefits of good stats were few enough to keep them in a cue card). So BACK THEN rolling for stats was legitimately part of the fun. I have no clue why someone would make an argument for a game like 5e where almost all the mechanics available to a character are affected by stats in some way

well you put the first array in there, so why not?

>Point Buy for customization
>Stat Array for simplicity
>Rolling just to see what happens, god help us

Holy fuck (You) are retarded. This your first day on Veeky Forums champ?

>This basically never happens if you roll up your characters as a group.
Are you kidding me?

>arbitrarily decide how high or low their stats can actually be?
Its not any more arbitrary than the limits imposed by 3d6

3d6 creates a bell curve so it's not really arbitrary to use it

It is when you say "alright guys, I'm going to make you roll for your stats but I also hold the right to decide if you need to reroll if your stats aren't as high/low as I imagine them being."

At least with 3d6, you can somewhat predict what the average will be since it's a bell curve.

What is with all this love for point buy. The only way you should be doing it is rolling (how you roll is up to the gm). If it is the players first time playing any rpg then maby use the standard array to speed things along and give them a little more control. But why the fuck has this board gone so highly towards fucking point buy? A year or two ago if you would've said anything but roll it you would've been crucified, because who doesn't like rolling dice.

never had a reason to roll on these boards, buckaroo

I'll take that as a yes. Lurk moar before making yourself look retarded in the future.

Here's one last (You) for the road.

This but for d&d I think having stat array as a slightly more points efficient option is very good. You have a good solid option for beginners and people playing normal builds and an advanced option for min-maxers who feel the snowflake tax is worth it.

In GURPS, you get the same done with setting templates and gm-imposed character creation rules. But for d&d I think 5e gets it right (including having stat rolls as an option).

My issue with rolling is that you have the potential to either gimp someone for a campaign or have them come up with excuses to reroll. Like rolling for hp, it's something that's lost its novelty for me.

>What's the point of rolling for stats when you're just going to arbitrarily decide how high or low their stats can actually be?
It's more important to randomize distribution of stats than to randomize the size of the stats, themselves. But I do actually think that all PCs having the exact same range of stats feels overly artificial, which is why being able to choose from different arrays (or randomly selecting them) is a good thing.

im sorry, mr. tough guy
please don't anally rape me over the internet like that again

>It is when you say "alright guys, I'm going to make you roll for your stats but I also hold the right to decide if you need to reroll if your stats aren't as high/low as I imagine them being."
Were we ever talking about that? I mean, in this particular reply chain? I thought we were discussing randomly placing a predetermined array of scores.

Because point buy works better

> A year or two ago if you would've said anything but roll it you would've been crucified
Absolutely not, I was here and all the threads about rolling vs point buy went more or less like this

Point buy is legitimately better for a system like 5e where every two points from 10 is a +/-1 modifier and almost every action you can take accounts for stats. Compare it to something like B/X where stats gave you a max of +/-3 modifier to a handful of very specific things

Because RNG is a shit way to make a character.

RNG can be good, in lifepath systems. I tend to prefer player driven chargen, but a well designed lifepath can be fun in and of itself.

If you're going to make people roll for stats, be okay with whatever scores they happen to get, otherwise, it's no longer random, which defeats the purpose.

>If you're going to make people roll for stats, be okay with whatever scores they happen to get, otherwise, it's no longer random, which defeats the purpose.
It still serves a purpose if the stats are randomly (or semi-randomly) allocated, regardless of their method of generation. It seems like you're creating a false dilemma between two extremes, where legitimate middle ground exists.

objectively correct
stat array is okay because it's quick
point buy is for munchkin faggots

>point-buy
have fun playing with one shitter who optimized his stats while everyone else was building characters

>It still serves a purpose if the stats are randomly (or semi-randomly) allocated,
No they aren't, because you're still deciding the range for how far go after someone had already rolled.

Also, what purpose does random allocation serve?

4d6 drop lowest down the line in order

Then randomly rolling for what your pre-adventuring occupation was, followed by rolling for life events.

We all play games in which the outcomes of our actions are determined by random chance and a roll of the die, yet have become so intent on putting a character into the world with a premade vision instead of adhering to the ritual of randomness and letting the dice breathe and weave life into the character you will be playing right up until the dice have the final say and take his life.

From the dice he's born, to the dice he dies.

>Implying munchkins don't heavily favor rolled stats over point buy.

if you're playing a system where 3d6 down the line is viable (i would never do it in 5e) you're probably playing a system where character creation is fast enough you can have everyone roll multiple characters.

make five characters, pick one three for yourself, give the other two to the GM as NPCs

Are you trolling? How have you not put your foot down yet?

Real gamers roll 6d20, assigned as they choose.

I don't mind random generation, I just feel that rolling stats is a meh way to do it that may lead to imbalanced characters.

Rolling, because WFRP doesn't have any other way

Random allocation determines where a character's strengths and weaknesses will be. It makes things more interesting by preventing a narrow range of optimized distributions from predominating. If combined with an array of stats (whether this array is pre-set, selected, or randomly determined), this gives you characters with balanced attributes but still a random configuration.

No, "statistical anomalies" are grognards fudging things in their favor 90% of the time.

>Random allocation determines where a character's strengths and weaknesses will be.
So does Point Buy.
>It makes things more interesting by preventing a narrow range of optimized distributions from predominating.
Until you end up with a dude with three 18's and another dude with three 8's trying to justify why they're in a party of people with a more even spread.
>If combined with an array of stats (whether this array is pre-set, selected, or randomly determined), this gives you characters with balanced attributes but still a random configuration.
Why not just use an array by default and save yourself the time in deciding how good/bad the good/bad rolls can be?

>No they aren't, because you're still deciding the range for how far go after someone had already rolled.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? Because I'm not suggesting that the GM should arbitrarily choose where your stats go or formulate a system only after seeing your rolls. I'm saying that there would be a predetermined system for determining which stat goes where.

Sure man, whatever you say.

3e style stat bonuses were a mistake.

>Rolling
You are a man among men, who risks his very being for fortune and glory.

>Standard Array
You want to be balanced and not show anyone up. You're in this for the story, not the game.

>Point Buy
You are a little faggot who whines if he can't get his maximum stat.

If you make people roll 3d6 down the line and you tell someone that they can't roll lower than an 8 or can reroll 1's, you're deciding how far their stats can go, rather than letting the dice decide naturally.

>Until you end up with a dude with three 18's

Statistically unlikely to happen, and you should be happy for your friend when it does.

>and another dude with three 8's

Dude, I live for the day when that happens to me. It'll be an excuse to finally run Don Quixote. Or Raistlin.

>Until you end up with a dude with three 18's and another dude with three 8's trying to justify why they're in a party of people with a more even spread.
>Why not just use an array by default and save yourself the time in deciding how good/bad the good/bad rolls can be?
I... don't think you understand what I'm saying, so let me illustrate. Let's say you've got an array -- maybe you pick or roll the array from a list (with them all being basically equivalent in strength), or maybe everybody gets the exact same array (which I like less, but it still works for our example). So this array you've got for your character has scores like 16, 14, 12, etc., but you don't get to just choose where you put them. You have to roll where the 16 goes, and where the 14 goes, and so forth. That's random allocation. It has nothing to do with deciding how good/bad rolls can be. It just has to do with where your scores end up.

>If you make people roll 3d6 down the line and you tell someone that they can't roll lower than an 8 or can reroll 1's, you're deciding how far their stats can go, rather than letting the dice decide naturally.
See , because this isn't at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about random allocation of stats (where your scores go) and not random generation of stats (how high your scores are).

>Statistically unlikely to happen, and you should be happy for your friend when it does.
Not when everyone else rolled average stats and not when it makes the GM's job in balancing encounters that much harder.
>Dude, I live for the day when that happens to me. It'll be an excuse to finally run Don Quixote. Or Raistlin.
You may be okay with mediocrity but most people aren't, and most would rather retire the character, especially when it also makes the job of balancing encounters that much harder as a result.