Are "use this limited resource BEFORE you make a roll, and only before, or else it is invalid" abilities in RPGs a bad idea?
Regardless of the RPG, regardless of the group, regardless of the experience the players have with the system, I constantly seen players forget about these abilities. Even I forget about them from time to time.
When I GM, I have to constantly remind players "And please remember that you have X ability that you can use BEFORE a roll," which can be tedious. Even then, the players sometimes forget; I just came out of a session wherein two players forgot about such an ability no less than a few minutes from my reminder.
It is always easier to remember about a "reroll AFTER you muck up a roll" ability than, say, a "gain a bonus/reroll BEFORE you make a roll" ability. From a game design standpoint, is the latter ever worth the trouble of including in a game, seeing how players tend to forget about them?
Even worse are the systems that have abilities like "use this ability BEFORE an enemy makes X type of roll." Good grief, are those annoying. If a PC has them, then either the player needs hair-trigger reflexes to interrupt the GM while the GM takes their turn, or the GM needs to constantly double-check with the players like "Would you like to activate that ability of yours?" Again, it seems much more convenient to have abilities like "Use this ability AFTER an enemy makes X type of roll," because then there is a more convenient time frame with which to interrupt an enemy. From a game design standpoint, why ever bother with "Use this ability BEFORE an enemy makes X type of roll"?
Yeah. You know what else annoys me? "Reroll the dice" powers where you have to keep the result even if it's worse. Gee. Thanks for punishing me for trying.
Luke Sanchez
Post-Roll abilities are generally preferred for ease of use, but Pre-roll abilities involve more decision making and can be more rewarding in the long run. The former is almost just an automatic reaction, while the latter requires risk analysis rather than just resource management. That's why most game designers will go and weigh Pre-Roll abilities heavier by giving larger bonuses or being less difficult to obtain.
It really ends up with just the fact that there are different types of players, and it's often up to the game designer to help and try to push players out of their comfort zones. Pre-roll abilities are somewhat tedious, risky, and often go unused since players tend to be more cautious with unreliable limited use abilities than they should, but they help force the players to evaluate the situation on a mechanically deeper level and to get more comfortable with gambles and risks.
I agree that I prefer post-roll abilities. But, I wouldn't go so far as to eliminate pre-roll abilities altogether, largely because they're a great way of see which rolls the player particularly cares about.
Jackson Harris
I could see these working well in systems wherein a failure is simply failure, but in RPGs wherein degrees of failure do exist, then yes, "keep the result even if it is worse" can be disheartening at times.
Jace Harris
What if a pre-roll ability could be used post-roll but with lesser effects?
Julian Butler
I have not seen these very often, even in systems that place a heavy emphasis on resource management... but amazingly, Pathfinder, of all the systems in the world, has an example that immediately springs to mind in one seldom-used variant rule:
>Bonus: If used before a roll is made, a hero point grants you a +8 luck bonus to any one d20 roll. If used after a roll is made, this bonus is reduced to +4. You can use a hero point to grant this bonus to another character, as long as you are in the same location and your character can reasonably affect the outcome of the roll (such as distracting a monster, shouting words of encouragement, or otherwise aiding another with the check). Hero Points spent to aid another character grant only half the listed bonus (+4 before the roll, +2 after the roll).
Ian Powell
Not a fan of limited-use preroll abilities. If it's something where it's multiple options but you have to pick which before you roll, but it's not a limited use thing, that's fine, but saying 'you can only reroll if you set it up before hand' or whatever is stupid.
Xavier Ward
Nah, fuck off, You tried and you lost. It's like negative points on an exam, should've just left it blank and get nothing.
Jose Myers
In general I think they're not a good design concept, yeah. I can see why some designers would tend towards it, but in practical terms it basically doesn't work and isn't very fun.
Colton White
It’s usually not before the roll, but before the result is revealed. And after is always better and more fun than before, before slows a game down and is dull as shit.
Everyone love 5e divine smites portents or luck, but Pathfinder’s Improved Iron Will or adaptable luck is tedious as fuck and ends up with hemming and hawing over it. I have never seen a situation that is improved by forcing the choice to be made before.
Logan Edwards
Isn't 5e inspiration something you HAVE to use before a roll?
Andrew Gutierrez
in a system i'm working on, the meta-resource lets you choose one of three effects to apply on your attack, before you roll for it, but the resource is shared between the entire party
is this a bad idea?
Noah Morris
Nope.
Christopher Moore
Depends on the rest of the system surrounding it.
You could end up with all the points being funneled into one character who is best built to use it, which makes the "share" aspect irrelevant in practice, for example.
Isaac Hill
>Are "use this limited resource BEFORE you make a roll, and only before, or else it is invalid" abilities in RPGs a bad idea? Mechanics like edge, willpower, etc make it work. You can use them before, or after, using it cannot have a negative impact on the result, and it's the only mechanic that needs this consideration from the player.
The bad thing is bogging the players down with dozens of paragraphs worth of abilities to remember every time they do anything. Same goes for forcing players to read the GM's mind just to use their powers.
Oliver Martinez
Except on an exam, when you retake it, you keep the better score. Don't be a fag.
Jonathan Perez
No you don't. What kind of retarded education did you get? Also why would you ever do worse?
Joseph Moore
>you keep the better score Depends on the professor
>why would you ever do worse? Same reason he needed to retake it in the first place
Nathan Lee
It's not really that bad. If you're using a reroll power, the original outcome is usually low enough that the odds of rolling even lower are unlikely, but still present so as to provide a sensation of risk.
Players HATE risks. They avoid them whenever they can, and will settle into a dull, safe, and reliable routine if not pushed out of their comfort zones. Risks are fun, and even an easily avoidable or unlikely risk still introduces an element of excitement.
Henry King
Activate before roll abilities are much better in my opinion. They offer the choice of risk reward, and because they aren't guarantees they can be given a much greater variety of potentially more powerful effects without immediately being more powerful. Activate after abilities offer considerably less choice because there is 0 risk involved in the decision making process.
It sounds like you play with goldfish and should grab some flashcards so they can remember things like they did back in primary school.
Joseph Williams
>If you have inspiration, you can expend it when you make an attack roll, saving throw, or ability check. Spending your inspiration gives you advantage on that roll.
You can't gain advantage on a roll after the fact. You have to use inspiration before the roll.
Tyler Jackson
i dont like the use before bonuses, you can still fail with the bonus or roll so well that the bonus is wasted. add after are neat because it transform near failure into normal successes. i love to use those effects on my allies, everyone love succeeding instead of failing.
Gabriel Hill
Those mechanics are called push-your-luck for a reason. Also it's pretty common to get 2 or 3 such rerolls where you rarely get more than a single roll extra/keep best die.
Wyatt Young
Pre-roll is more realistic. Almost every ability should be pre-roll because that is how it would work IRL. For example, you load in a special bullet or magical arrow that does more damage than a standard one before you shoot, or you expend one of the flame charges on your magical sword before you swing, hoping to hit your target. Pre-roll is also more exciting because it raises the stakes of the roll in question, since you are burning a resource to get extra damage or a special effect. The uncertainty of pre-roll is what make it good. Imagine the excitement that builds up when a player is sitting on 2 failed death saves and 2 successful death saves. That final roll is exciting because there is a lot riding on it and you DON'T know the outcome.
The only time post-roll should be a thing is when it involves divine powers (since a god can see that you are going to miss and redirect your attack so that it finds its mark).
The real reason post-roll is so widespread is the exact reason you touched on in the OP: Most players suck and need to be coddled...Most people forget to use their abilities because they are inept and inefficient. Half of the D&D players I know go to the table without even reading half of their class abilities and just wait for competent players or the DM to tell them how their own character works...These are the players that make it difficult to have a game centered around pre-roll resource strategizing and synergy between players.
The lowest common denominator needs stuff like this >Player: I roll to hit >DM: You miss >Player: I use my ability to make it hit >DM: Okay, the creature dies >Player: Yayyyyyy! Epic win!
Because stuff like this is too complicated >Player A: I use my ability to make Player C do extra damage when he deals fire damage. >Player B: I use my ability to impede the monster's movement, making it easier for Player C to hit him. >Player C: I use that powerful fire spell that I can only cast once per day.
Josiah Sullivan
>The only time post-roll should be a thing is when it involves divine powers (since a god can see that you are going to miss and redirect your attack so that it finds its mark).
Or it's a narrative contrivance, you mong.
Brayden Anderson
Please explain what you mean by "narrative contrivance." I don't get what you are trying to say here.
Dominic Richardson
Realism is the stupidest reason to go with one over the other. It's a fucking game mechanic.
Brody Hall
This. Things like edge and inspiration are meta-currency; they don't exist in the game world, and the character generally does not make a choice to expend them.
Ryan Smith
i think before abilities are held onto by players more than use after abilities. both have their merits.
Nathaniel Collins
brainlet detected
Correct. Pre-roll simply encourages different behavior and conservation patterns
William Sullivan
So roll before abilities are bad because your players forget them?
Totally legit, fuck those things!
Jordan Scott
>user speaks the truth >calls him brainlet Why do "brainlets" use this stupid meme?
Connor King
>realism >D&D Choose one and only one.
Grayson Fisher
Activate before roll is only really acceptable if the bonus is SUBSTANTIAL. Having something like "X times per day (game session), add +1 to your next d20 roll" is easily forgotten about. Finding the right time to use those limited extras is hard enough, but knowing that 19 times out of 20 they won't do ANYTHING and there's not really much point in worrying about it.
If you are going to have limited uses of something and you have to decide when to use it before you actually know you need it, you had better at least have a 50/50 shot of that thing making a difference.
Kevin Green
>Realism D&D and its derivitives are about as far from reality as possible and trying to insert realism into a setting where magic exists is the bullshit that's turning the hobby to shit. >inb4 MUH INTERNAL CONSISTENCY Fuck off, if the setting is one where you can lose 99% of your health in a day and sleep it off, it's most likely not a setting in which broken bones and shit is a problem.
Jordan Kelly
It's "when" you make the roll, not "before." Until the DM resolves the roll, it's still being made. It could go either way in a ruling, but most abilities in 5e that require you to decide before any action is taken usually denotes such a limitation.
Evan Wood
>It could go either way in a ruling, but most abilities in 5e that require you to decide before any action is taken usually denotes such a limitation. [citation needed]
Josiah Lee
Portent.
Gabriel Ross
If bookkeeping is a consistent issue between multiple player bases then some stuff need to be looked over.
When few fail the instruction it is on them, when many fail, the instruction has failed to convey
Adam Morales
"Roll before" mechanics generally never work because unless it's something that gives you a significant boost that stays around after it's activated.
For example, my Druid always spends a bonus action on shillelagh since it increases the amount of damage he does with his quarterstaff and it lasts for 1 minute (10 turns) after it's activated.
