I don't know which Groves to buy desu. I'm building 4c loam and I like the FS art and border and how it matches with dryad arbor but I'm not opposed to the new art and it'd be cheaper that way too. What do?
Caleb Martinez
If you're just building it get the cheaper ones if it'll mean that you can finish it quicker You can always upgrade later
Lucas Murphy
Whine at WotC hard enough to get Oath of Druids unbanned so that you can use the Real Man's "help the opponent" land, Forbidden Orchard
Owen Smith
That doesn't answer my question or have any relevance to 4c loam. Go play vintage if you want oath.
Blake Morgan
I sure as hell won't be playing "Punishing" anything because that strategy is lame as fuck
Brayden Wright
Go play Modern if you want epic 2-damage 2-card combos
Caleb Stewart
>go play modern >punishing fire is banned in modern >implying it's 2 damage when you have multiple p fires in the yard Please explain why I should play modern if I'm playing 4c loam.
k. thanks for answering my question.
Ryder Stewart
Burn is fun.
Elijah Sanchez
Oh shit nigga when did they print a Judge Foil for Imperial Seal? Shit's actually able-to-be-acquired now. Yankee baseball.
Landon Barnes
anyone planning on picking up cards during the TCGPlayer 10% kickback thing? I never know if it's worth it because people tend to snap up all the lowest-priced versions of staples at like 1 am or some shit.
Sebastian Perry
These kind of posts are why these threads fucking suck and are always dying >post about a deck/card/strategy >user responds "WHAT THE fUCK? X STRATEGY SUCKS UNBAN Y AND FUCK MIDRANGE/COMBO/AGGRO. LOL THE MODERN BOOGEYMAN"
Christian Walker
Taiga would cost more if it were a good strategy
Jose Walker
I'm playing BUG Delver at the moment. Was considering throwing a Sultai Charm into the sideboard, mainly as another answer to Chalice, Angler and someone in my playgroup is playing some weird Academy Rector into Overwhelming Splendor deck.
Thoughts on Sultai Charm in BUG Delver, too expensive for what it does?
Justin Fisher
Lands has been tier in Legacy for years now. Its about as iconic as Sneak and Show and Storm. 4 color Loam also puts up good results which is real hard to do in such a powerful format.
Wyatt Myers
>rare pic of the burn player in it's natural habitat
Justin Martin
:D
Next time, I'll probably be on BReanimator. Finally picked up another Badlands.
For BReanimators, do you typically try to run a list of full quads of most stuff, or do you shave on cards like Unmask, Collective Brutality, and Animate Dead?
Brayden Thomas
Is Zombardment terrible? It seems to be fun and flexible.
Blake Collins
wrong thread
Adrian Morgan
I'm almost done whitebordering my burn deck!
Chase Fisher
You want 4 Animate dead for sure since anything less and you start getting less consistent. Some people like to split Unmask/Brutality but I think it's more of a meta call. If you're expecting more DRS than usual then play Brutality but if not run Unmask since it speeds you up and turns those draw 7's into free discard sometimes as well.
Parker Howard
Also forgot to add that Unmask is a good way to check your opponents hand before you combo since it's free, but that one's a bit more self explanatory.
Adam Turner
Reposting this here because I fucked up and posted it in Modern
So I've hard this "fun deck" after I quit for man years now, and I want to revamp it a bit by making it more playable. It's a really simple white blue with fun creatures and counters
4x Absorb 4x Counterspell 4x Spell Snare 4x Mana Leak 4x Opt 4x Deft Duelist ??? 4x Pride of the Clouds ??? 4x Voice of All 4x Exalted Angel
4x Flooded Strand 4x Hallowed Fountain 8x Island 8x Plains
Sideboard 4x Paladin En-Vec 4x Circle of Protection: Red 4x Disenchant 3x Annul
Any suggestions? The ??? are examples are open for suggestions but there are so many cards at this point I have no idea what's a good creature to put in a deck like this.
Grayson Edwards
Other cards I was thinking about > Rootwater Thief > Sprite Noble > Fleeting Image
Hudson Lewis
STILL TWO BUDGET DECK LINKS HOW DARE YOU
Gabriel Johnson
What do you want us to day? Upgrading that takes a lot of money and as UW colors you are missing the obvious cards that are almost always played. What is your gameplan? Do you want to relate this to kitchen table or competitive decks, because even at kitchen table people often play with prints and try to optimize jank plans.
Your "fun deck" is just plain shit.
Jacob Lee
Legacy ain't EDH Plus for 3 CMC in a tempo deck you should cast something really really annoying, like Liliana or TNN, not a puny Nature's Claim
Benjamin Rodriguez
I would think that card would serve as 1 of answer to some random shit preventing you from winning. Mainboard chalice/bridge/etc shit isn't that uncommon to see, so it's not unheard of an idea to have mainboard one out for that kind of stuff. Also since the other modes are cycle or removal at instant speed, it's not that bad, but you are right. 3cmc is steep cost.
Grayson Gonzalez
Abrupt decay already deals with those
Christopher Cook
WHO /DREDGE/ HERE BOYS
Joshua Brown
They can hit things that other can't. do I think abrupt decay is better overall? Absolutely, but it doesn't hit things like gurmag angler, neither does it cycle if needed.
Logan Watson
Thanks guys, I'll give it a go and see what happens.
On the subject of BUG: Stifle or Hymn? I'm playing Hymn at the moment, but having played Stifle previously I can't help but think it's better against most of the field right now.
Jace Myers
Mox Monkey is tech
Wyatt Smith
Take one inch off theirs and add it to yours every time you Stifle a fetchland
Ian Howard
Hoover Hymn a best
Luke Smith
Thanks for the feedback! That sounds about like what I'd been thinking. I've got to confess I like Unmask more, but that Brutality's been great in my U/B list. It's a bit unconventional, but I've been liking having a few copies of Brutality and Dark Ritual even in a more control-oriented list.
Yeeeeeaaaaah! Shine on, you crazy diamond.
It's all three, so don't let its general mediocrity dissuade you if you've got a lot of the cards already. Also, free wins against Dredge are pretty funny with it.
WHO (else) /FORCE OF WILL/ IN DREDGE HERE BOYS
I'd go with Stifle if you're running Daze. I'm assuming you're running Daze, so I'd go for Stifle first. Hymn is a BEAST against a lot of decks, though, so I'd keep them on hand and do some testing.
Bentley Wood
You fools are going to let the thread expire again. This is what happens when you ban SDT. Nothing to aspire to beat.
Nolan Peterson
Oh shit
I was wondering what I should do with my FoW's
Just off Narco's and other FoW's? Gitaxian Probe?
Angel Nelson
Except grixis Delver. A clear best deck rose up to replace miracles. What a suprise.
Sebastian Diaz
>Best deck
Grixis delver does good mostly because it's played on masse as in 15-20% of any tournament meta is entirely grixis delver. It loses to big portion of field, but there is always some guy getting top8 with just by number.
Jordan Cruz
This is simply untrue. What's this "big portion of the field" that it loses to? And it's not just 1 person getting top8 with the deck, its 3 in the top8 of eternal weekend. It's 4 in the Baltimore legacy classic. 6 in the top 16 of the last mtgo legacy challenge.
Eli Johnson
Narco, Amalgam, Study, Breakthrough
Jayden Nelson
nice bullshit lots of decks eat delver alive
Wyatt Cooper
Yeah like pox and Nic fit. Those aren't big portions of the format though senpai. Not by any stretch of the word big, which I'm sure you're used to stretching.
Samuel Nguyen
>I'd go with Stifle if you're running Daze. I'm assuming you're running Daze, so I'd go for Stifle first. Hymn is a BEAST against a lot of decks, though, so I'd keep them on hand and do some testing.
Thanks, that's sort of what I'm doing right now. I'm testing out Hymn to see how it works. Against some decks it pretty much wins you the game outright, but against other decks I can't help but think that Stifle would be a lot better. I'll probably stick with Hymn until the end of the year and see how I feel come January. I am indeed running Daze, my deck is a pretty stock BUG Delver list, except I'm playing the Hooting Mandrills version.
Christopher Wilson
I think implying it makes Top 8s through sheer force of numbers is not giving a true reflection of the deck. The reason so many people play it is because it's got a good chance against most decks in Game 1, and has a flexible enough sideboard to adapt to most Game 2s and 3s. Even against the tough matchups you can still sometimes pull of the "Delver open" of T1 Delver, flip it on Turn 2 and then just disrupt, disrupt, disrupt and steal a game that way. It doesn't always happen, but the deck gives you those chances sometimes.
While Grixis Delver isn't one of the most expensive Legacy decks around, it's certainly not a budget option either. So it's the actual merits of the deck that draw people to it. This can be evidenced by the amount of Pro players who either play it themselves, or accept that Grixis is either the best deck or Tier 1.
Jack Scott
Elves, Dnt and everything with Chalice is a hard matchup Delver wont ever be as oppressive as Countertop Miracles
Brandon Gomez
But it already is my dude
Benjamin Gomez
so that's why we have decks like Soldier stompy coming out of the woodwork really makes you think
Nathaniel Hall
You act as if rogue brews eventually reaching top 8 was unheard of during the Miracles era.
Andrew Phillips
No it doesn't. Soldier stompy isn't a good enough deck to compete with every other deck, even if it's Delver matchup is decent.
Gavin Foster
You're playing a control deck with too many creatures. Check out UW control lists on MTG goldfish, etc to get an idea of what people play. Things you're missing: card draw: Probably want to throw in some cryptic commands as well as sphinx's rev and other ways to refill your hand. You have the right idea on playing around 24 lands but you need to draw cards to hit your land drops and still have things to play. good win-cons: you should be focussing mainly on stopping your opponent from doing his thing. Most of your creatures are hurting you because they dilute your control game plan and your opponent, with a deck that's more focussed on what it wants o do, will just win before you do. You should have a small number of powerful win cons that you can cast and use once you stabilize; maybe elspeth or mind sculptor or a creature that protects itself like aetherling. Removal: you need to be able to deal with threats. You have counter spells but you need to diversify it more.
Blake Williams
What said. I don't think you want more than two Amalgams, and if you're interested in using cards like Street Wraith or PImp, Force doesn't work. But every time I decide I'm going to cut Force, it just crushes somebody who doesn't expect it. Definitely not a card to bring in every time, but the knuckleball factor is strong in this one.
Another factor that's worth considering is that its framework is extremely flexible. No longer do you lose to "56 identical cards plus Mentors OR Entreat OR Venezuelan Legends." Now, there are Grix Delver variants that attack your hand, your mana, your stack, or a varying combination thereof, so though it looks cursorily like A Deck replaced Another Deck in the top slot, it's not that simple.
That's another reason to keep Gitaxian Probe in the format—even though Grix runs Probe to great effect, T1 Delver doesn't tell you anything about what kind of Delver package you're facing, so free information isn't a bad thing for the game and helps a lot of other decks at least as much as it helps Delver.
There's a lot of other stuff that's solid in the matchup, like BloodMoon.dec and Dredge. I don't think it's an inordinately difficult deck to beat, even with stuff that typically has a bit of trouble against heavy control, like Reanimator. It's got positive matchups against most of the field, but those matchups aren't nearly as positive as they were for CounterTop.
Yeah, Hymn is an interesting one. It's a blowout very often against a number of decks, but even decks that don't like getting hit by discard often have ways around it like Past in Flames.
I actually think the ubiquity of nonbasic lands is a real weakpoint for a lot of decks in the format right now. (IIRC, the Legacy main event at Eternal Weekend featured precisely one T8 list that ran any basics.) And though that's a weakness any Delver variant will face, I think it makes Stifle really strong at the moment.
Jaxon Jackson
Finally getting a playset of Flusterstorm thanks to Iconic Masters... fuck the haters I love this set.
Luis Gomez
Serious question-- just how fucking batshit would Oath be in the current legacy meta?
T1 oath off of lotus petal, realistically t2 since you have to crop rotation for the orchard, t3 emrakul-- seems comparable to depths or show and tell.
Ayden Jenkins
the thing about show and tell is that you also need the creature/omniscience in hand. with oath, it just needs to be in your deck, effectively making it a "one card" combo, in addition to being a mana cheaper. Plus, creatures are way more prevalent in legacy than in vintage, so you would be likely to activate your oath even if you didn't draw the orchard. It would be way more powerful than any other big creature combo deck currently in the format.
Leo Brown
The answer is "just fucking batshit"
Jackson Baker
What would a pox build configured to beat BUG look like?
Jack Torres
It's not comparable at all. Oath is _one sided_ SnT in a _tutor form_. I have been jokingly saying here to unban Oath, because I like the card, but I do realize it's broken as balls.
Now Hermit druid on the other hand......
Xavier Bailey
It's like I am saying Grixis Delver is the worst deck in modern history. We were talking about the best deck.
Personally I think it's /dredge/ and I can cherrypick any scenario in it's favor. (Like anyone could for their shitty pet deck)
Aaron James
Format is stale as fuck right now.
Alternating b/w Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. Bought the cards I was missing for Food Chain off CFB yesterday but I'm not sure why.
There's nothing to say about the format atm to the point where I haven't recorded a podcast in ages. Play grixis delver or grixis delverless delver or expect to lose is basically it.
Also lol @ unbanning oath.
Blake Walker
Problem is Team America is already clunky as fuck with it's hymns and goyfs and lilis and 20 lands. Maybe a sideboard card but even then... eh.
Hymn + Stifle. Don't be a cuck.
Ryan Turner
>taking credit for the "unban Oath" comment when only you and the person who actually called for it know the truth Bold move on an anonymous imageboard.
Adam Price
A friend of mine played hymn and stifle in bug delver. called it combo-killer delver cause he refused to lose to storm.
Brandon Walker
Same with a friend of mine, though he never called it a combo killer. he just knew that it was miserable to play against and loved that.
Jayden Turner
Storm definitely draws a TON of hate, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's why it's not a permanent fixture in the top slots. Especially in small metagames, it becomes really easy to switch a couple of mediocre flex slots with stuff that hoses it because combo tends to rely on specific cards to win, and Storm's the best combo deck out there.
I don't have inordinate problems beating Grixis Delver. It's tough and definitely Grix is favored, but like I said, rather imprecisely, its good matchups aren't anywhere near as lopsided as Miracles's were a year ago.
I also think it's important to point out that, though certain decks have virtually disappeared (Painter), a whole lot of others are much more viable now than they were with CounterTop shitting up everything good in the world except Dredge.
A question for Doomsday and Nic Fit (Junk or otherwise) pilots: how has the deck been faring of late? Losing Top was bad, but was it backbreaking?
Jonathan Young
It's fucking bullshit that the DCI had to kill Nic Fit by banning SDT. Were people that upset at getting 2 free basic lands from their opponent? Had to kill that Painter's Servant too, having made sure that people would buy their Imperial Recruiters and the like prior to doing so. Game has become corrupt.
Luke Bailey
Nic fit is hardly dead. 2 copies in top16 of eternal weekend. The deck still works.
I've been having decent results with doomsday since the ban. Positive winrate, a 1k top8. Its still been rough and the deck is not as buttery smooth as it used to be but it still wins games.
Jackson Murphy
Thanks for the info! I've been tinkering with BUG Nic Fit with the cantrip package a bit, though I haven't had the chance to test it because I'm trying to scrape together for another Bayou and/or Trop. (Need to get a Tundra first for Commander. I'm doing fine in my metagame without it, so I might back-burner the Tundra for a bit. Doesn't help that I'm broke and do stupid things like buy a Mana Drain for shiggles—er, Commander.) I'm interested in trying Doomsday, too (I have all the cards), though I tend to get a bit punchy after a few rounds so I don't think I'll be very good at it.
DDFT, have you made any more vids since the Top ban? I really like your content. Props again on the T8!
I'm realizing I might have given a bit of a weird impression with my previous post, so I'll reiterate that I don't think Top was the right ban because of the collateral damage it caused. Much as I love this game, I really don't think the people in charge of banning things know what they're doing, and the case of Top is actually less egregious than a number of other mistakes on their part—leaving PentaLotus in Vintage, banning everything good in Modern, and, of course, making up the legendary "Gentleman's Agreement."
Jordan Jones
Can't be proven though since results for only the Top 8 are available online. Sad!
Chase Jackson
I've made one real video since the ban but I'd like to make a few more. m.youtube.com/watch?v=pPVnLa8XIUI I've changed my list up since then but this lost is fine.
Asher Stewart
My first tournament is next week, and I'm piloting a burn deck with some Fetches. What should I be wary of? I don't know the meta of the area at all, so my sideboard is a bit generic and covers most bases
Isaac Walker
its your local meta, how would anyone else know what to expect? Plus you are playing burn, not exactly the most complex deck to pilot
Jaxson Jenkins
idk what your maindeck is but
sb: 3 ensnaring bridge 3 pyrostatic pillar 3 exquisite firecraft 4 leyline of the void 2 smash to smithereens.
As general as it can get.
Hunter Clark
Why play with fetches?
Adam Hernandez
they thin out your library so you don't draw that many lands
Carter Perez
Then you don't need some but a shitton for it to be somewhat effective. I think that stuff is rather counter productive for burn
Cooper Perez
You should only run fetches if you're playing Grim Lavamancer. Otherwise the percentage increase is negligible.
Jason Walker
how is increasing your chances to draw a burn spell counter productive? and of course it makes a difference, having 11 lands left in your deck is better than having 12 you're playing burn, of course you're playing lavaman
Connor Cook
Taking 1 damage to improve quality of draw by 1.2 or something % is counterproductive. That 1 life is worth more than the thinning effect. Lavamancer is entirely another matter.
Samuel Bailey
you're playing burn, your life total is the last thing you should take into consideration
Landon Watson
That doesn't mean you ignore it entirely, though.
Leo Perry
Legacy is a competitive format. We don't give a shit about casual decks. Would you go to a Ferrari competitive racing forum and ask questions about doing an oil change on your Hyundai? Of course not, that would be stupid.
Parker Parker
>t. try-hard internet-tough user
Leave that kinda shitposting in the """""Competitive""""""" Modern General, okay? If a deck is actually bad we just ignore it and the poster.
Gabriel Bailey
bump
John Nelson
If you Searing Blaze Leovold how many Leovold triggers result?
Asher Howard
Fuck off, go to your edh containment thread
Gavin Long
Maybe some Grafdigger's
Adrian Jackson
So do Gitaxian Probes, why not run 4 of those bad boys
Andrew Sanchez
I have some math for you too, life is worthless in 99.9% of decks
Jason Cook
Fetches make Landfall more likely for Searing Blaze, they fuel Grim Lavamancer, they reduce the number of lands you draw (which for the most part is a good thing, especially on 18–20), and they can make people think you're not playing Burn for a turn.
Needs four Smithereens.
You're a dog to combo, but you're favored against most other stuff except heavy-control, where my (limited) experience suggests you have a slight edge.
Thanks for the link, man! Saw that one a while back, but it's a good video. Keep up the good work!
Elijah Bailey
Probe in a deck like Burn pretty much reads, "Pay 2 life." Probe is great in a bunch of decks for obvious reasons, but it's only good to thin your deck if you're going to be getting better draws by doing so. You're better served just running more fiery stuff.
Fetches, on the other hand, take the place of other lands, not of spells. So you want to be drawing hands with 2–3 lands, but you almost never want to topdeck more than one or two after that. Fetchlands help there; Probe doesn't.
Ayden Hernandez
should i play junk or jund
Levi Jenkins
Grixis with fetches
Christian Baker
Fetchless Jund
Daniel Williams
bump
Camden Allen
I'll probably try to make another video. I'm going to a 1k next weekend so once I've settled on a list I'll make a video with it.