/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Really excited to see their details (and Stats) in next preview!

Wasn't he involved with Guide to the Technocracy? I remember that being pretty good. Then again, I doubt it was good because of anything he alone wrote for it.

Would Life 2 shielding work to protect you from box jellyfish venom?

Yep. Heck, it could shield you from venom wholesale.

are so cucked

Can 2e Changelings finally stand up to bully Mages?

I can make a point about how the new Contracts no longer should be disabled by Arcanthus, but unfortunately Changelings have actually become MORE vulnerable to Mage fucker. Mind control, memory manipulation or forced flashback, or even normal illusions can shake apart Changeling Clarity and drop them into short term coma.

There was never a "disable" to begin with.

Proficient users of Fate can muddle with Contracts the same as Death/Spirit muddles with Disciplines/Gifts.

On the bright side, they can fuck over mages, too.
I feel a great deal of pity for the poor soul who comes to a freehold looking for trouble.

>On the bright side, they can fuck over mages, too.

Oh please. Enough with the bait.

Contracts function very similarly to Changeling ringing up a powerful Spirit (or maybe even a Symbol) and going "Hey, you have a deal with my Keeper. I came to collect."

Denying that moves bit too close to denying the entire Regalia and with it the power of both Gentry and the Wyrd who negotiated for them.
Should it really work with that in mind?

Everything good you remember about mage probably wasn't written by him, though he will likely take credit for it, and at the same time blame the writers for ruining his vision or some shit. He takes credit for all the good parts and blames others for everything bad. The opposite is closer to the truth. The man can't write cohesively and doesn't even know what a rule is.

They are still deals, and therefore fall under the purview of fate. Unless you just want to gut changeling and remove the entire power source of the template, deals, pretty much everything they do short of maybe kith and seeming blessings and some inherent template stuff is all deals, and even that is also kind of deals.

I don't think you get it. The Mage isn't cancelling anything.

I'm fairly certain a single Cabal of Masters could fuck around with a Freehold.

There's also now only 12 kiths, and they don't seem to be real big winners to me: Artist, Bright One, Chatelaine, Gristlegrinder, Helldiver, Hunterheart, Leechfinger, Mirrorskin, Nightsinger, Notary, Playmate, Snowskin.

Compare that to the 39 of the 1e core rulebook, or the 83 of the 2e David Hill playtest. It lacks variety, how are you even supposed to run a game with only 12 kiths?

Also, allegedly dual kiths are being taken out.

You didn't understand. The Deals being canceled (or even just postponed) wasn't made by Changeling. Changeling is tapping into it by waving copy of their Keeper's ID, that even the Keeper can't disable, because Wyrd doesn't differentiate between Keeper and their ID card/s.

Contract isn't spell Changeling bargained for. It's an elite, ancient backroom deal bargained by all of the Gentry. Changeling can use it because they know of terms of one of its clauses, and fall under umbrella of "fey."

So, could a Mage use Space to disrupt any spell since it's based on a connection (to the supernal)?

I would love to hear layman term explanation of what Mage players and devs mean by "no-selling" and how it works mechanically.

You just run the game with just Seemings. Kiths were a mistake.

Those deals are made of phenomena surrounding Fate. It doesn't actually matter who made it.

Regardless, you can't utterly strip Changelings of Contracts without Archmastery.

What's wrong with Kiths?

By "no-selling" I'm imagining it working similar to aforementioned Death = Disciplines / Spirit = Gifts

Hardly any Contracts actually dealing in any way with Pledges, Oaths, or Bargains (Changelings have separate system for those). There are several that are Fate related, but there are also Contracts that have nothing to do with Fate but rather deal with only in other Arcana.

At this point we are stepping dangerously close to argument we had about Disciplines several threads ago.

Empower a splat that isn't mages

Nothing, this guy says this over and over without really telling you why they're bad. The game even in 1e was designed on the assumption that you'd pick a kith.

You see. I don't actually know what you imply when you say that since I have NEVER read Mage and probably never will. Would you kindly explain it in layman terms so we may understand what Mage posters mean and can have more productive discussions in the future?

I don't think you get it. This is the same as when Dave said Death could fuck with any Discipline.
The power source surrounds that specific pillar of reality.

Dominate hampers with the mind, but the Discipline itself is a product of death.
The same goes for most-anything a Changeling will pull off.

inb4 "FUCK DAVE"

I don't actually trust Dave's judgement here. He isn't Developer for either version of Changeling and his explanation seems to be based on his assumptions and headcanons than actual insight or input from other developers.

Before we go any further, I ask one more time that you would stop to explain how "no-selling" works in Mage mechanically.

Mage powers are divided up into 10 Arcana, each dot in which allows increasing degrees of utility. Three dots confers, among other benefits, the ability to weaken the effects of that Arcana. So, a mage with Fate 3 could weaken a changeling's connection to the threads of fate that empower its contracts, hampering its ability to activate them.

You realize Dave has written extensively for Changeling, right?

>I ask one more time that you would stop to explain how "no-selling" works in Mage mechanically.
The same as how Disciplines and Gifts are no-sold.

What does hampering mean mechanically in this? How would this affect another Mage? How about affecting an Archmage?

>i'm stupid
>please help me be not stupid

I don't think I want to, sorry.

We'll see how it turns out in Chaos Factor 2: Contagion Boogaloo.

This guy is baiting you

He's asking question that have already been answered

>"How does led lamp work?"
>"Like lamp works."
Dude, if I knew how it works I wouldn't be asking. Do you know rules yourself?

>How about affecting an Archmage
>Archmage
And now I see you're just another dumb baitposter.

They're hyper specific not-even-splats for things that Seemings, Courts, various Merits, and Entitlements should already be able to cover. I realize that no X,Y, or Z-splat could possibly cover the sheer amount of fairie kinds that exist in folklore, but Kiths end up taking far too much character consideration time for essentially one or two new mechanics and a fluff detail, especially now that they're not even an X-subclass anymore.

Mummy has a similar problem with its Judges.

I'm not going to ban Kiths from my table, it's clear that folks love them from that earlier post and how badly people want that Kith book stretchgoal, but I sure wish that the time taken for Kiths in 1e could have been applied to refining Entitlements.

Just to clarify "Like countering Disciplines/Gifts works" is meaningless. I don't know how that works either, which is why I am repeating my question after explaining that answer was useless.

What was wrong with Entitlements that needed to be refined?

>I don't know how that works either

What fucking gameline do you play then? Do you even know how CoW works?

It sounds like you need to read an actual corebook before you come here.

That part directly relates to my claim why Fate shouldn't work on Contracts. My assumption here is that the Gentry who negotiated the Arcadian Contracts in the first place were roughly same caliber.

It's clear they don't know any of the rules for any of the games. Due to that its better to just tell them to read a book. Asking 'how does the entire system work' is nothing better than a bait post. 0 effort and no attempt to actually learn.

Maybe people want their changelings to actually represent better their idea? Perhaps they get some measure of concept by looking at the Kiths?

Maybe some kind of semi-crunchy fluff for their character that gives them direction and some substance so that they're better differentiated from a changeling of the same court and seeming? There's far less courts and seemings than kiths.

The caliber of the deal has no determination on if fate can effect it or not. Sure a non archmaster Can't undo a Dynamics spell of some fashion or another, but they can to a certain extent negate the direct effects, depending on the spell. Also nothing fae does evolves on its own to fulfill an end goal, literally nothing they do is on par with even the lowest level of archmastery.

It's still revolving around the symbolism of Fate. How are you THIS brain dead?

>I ask one more time that you would stop to explain how "no-selling" works in Mage mechanically.
I will, sure.

In any actual case of crossover, chances are your ST will allow you to Shield against the powers of other splats with the appropriate Arcanum, something that is supported by RAW, with things like Ephemeral Shield (a Spirit Shielding spell) being able to Shield against Gifts, and Ghost Shield (a Death Shielding spell) being able to Shield against powers based in Death, like the Numina of ghosts, or even vampiric Disciplines, which means that you get a number of Clashes equal to Potency that you may or may not win. That's all RAW, no word of Dave here.

Shielding is only a two dot Practice, but the power of spells in Mage is more dependent on things like their Gnosis and specific Arcanum rating rather than the dot level a spell is placed at (which is determined solely by Practice).

Things like being able to weaken Changeling Contracts with Fate Fraying is a hypothetical application, that you as an ST can say no to, no problem. All Creative Thaum spells can be rejected or tweaked by the ST, and a lot of the bullshit proposed on here wouldn't get approved for use in play, approved by Dave or not.

Its just a shitty bait poster. This time changeling flavored. And as usual, the bait poster either doesn't know the rules and is genuinely retarded or is just pretending to not know to bait, which is about as retarded.

I have stated at least three times that I have not read Mage and do not intend to read Mage.

>CoW
So, you are saying that each Arcana has effect that read roughly as "End or prevent supernatural effect of this Arcana or supernatural effect that Dave says falls under purview of this Arcana." that causes Clash of Wills?

Mage spells have a factor called Potency, a measure of how strong the spell is. For most spells, default Potency is the number of dots in the relevant Arcana. Mages can increase Potency, with each +1 potency costing a -2 On the spell's dice pool. For spells that are resisted, the target deducts one of their resistance attributes from the spell's Potency. For this case, the mage could cook up a spell that imposes a dice penalty equal to Potency on the changeling's attempts to use Contracts, opposed by Composure. The mage then take as large a penalty as he can manage to try to get your pool down to 0.
There are other ways to go about this, like making a shield that clashes with any contract you use at the mage (2 dots in Fate), or temporarily removing your connection to your Keeper (5 dots)

No, you are still wrong, go away bait poster.

MtAw2 has no rules of Arcana affecting Disciplines.

Holy fuck you're such a meaty little brainlet.

If you are too retarded to understand the purview of the arcana this might be true, but for those of use who know how to actually read, its one hundred percent spelled out in the text.

Are all Changeling players this stupid?

Then how about giving a quote from the book or at least a page number?

And if you don't what it means to Clash, it's where two splats trying to assert conflicting powers roll pools based on their power stat number and their rating in the power they're trying to use.

So for a vampire trying to Dominate a Mage with a Mental Shield up, it would be Blood Potency + Dominate vs. Gnosis + Mind as a baseline. Mages can get bonuses to their Clash pools by springing for the Advanced Spell Factors.

I'm looking to actually buy a physical copy of one of the Dark Ages - Vampire books. Should I go with Revised or 20th Anniversary?

woofs are bigger brainlets

Thank you. This is precisely the explanation I needed. I have much better idea of terms used by Mages in this discussion.
I am not wholly convinced if all effects of Contracts should CoW with "Fate Shield," but at least I understand where the other side is coming from.

20th Anniversary. Dark Ages Vampire is one of the best 20th Anniversary books out of all the ones released and is hands down fantastic. If you wanna check it out first to make sure it's worth it though then you can look into the pastebin. There should be a PDF copy there that you can peruse as you like.

Yes. Now please fuck off.

What's the main difference between the two, if you don't mind me asking? I suppose there's some updated rules, yes?

>I am not wholly convinced if all effects of Contracts should CoW with "Fate Shield,"

Depends on the effect and spell, but Fate should be able to interact with anything a Changeling can pull off. Potentially.

After the effort it took me to get concrete, well articulate answer from you and being screamed for being a baiter for being perplexed by gameline I am not familiar with? Precisely what I intended to do. Thank you for fruitful discussion.

You didn't even show familiarity with any game line. Clash of wills is present in all of them and you didn't know what it is. Stop pretending you put any effort into this at all.

Somehow, this isn't a problem for almost every other splat in the line, and I've never seen it as an issue with the Courts and Seemings, which are broad enough to have many different ways to pin down their themes and aesthetics.

After the effort it took me to get concrete, well articulate answer from you and being namecalled a baiter for being perplexed by gameline I am not familiar with? Precisely what I intended to do. Thank you for fruitful discussion.

I wasn't confused by CoW. I was confused by what kind of effect did Mages use to cause it in this situation.

I think that has more to do with most of the other splats being a specific thing. A mage is a mage, a werewolf is a werewolf, a vampire is a vampire... a changeling is a changeling yes but there's no one shape or form that all changelings tend to conform to unlike say a Werewolf. And I think that Kiths fairly well reflect that.

You're a brainlet, brainlet.

Your beloved Changelings get BTFO'd at Fate 2 and destroyed at Fate 4.

I would have preferred they drop seemings, kiths are (and have always been) far more interesting and compelling.

And the easiest venue to sell people on the game.

To be fair the number of possible combinations in 2e Core is greater. That said I do feel like it's reasonable complaint that Kiths while awesome and balanced don't equally cower all niches they should be cowering.

I WILL, SURE.

Ghost Shield has been errata's to include defense against the "death-related powers of other supernaturals" (p.129), and in Mage vampires are classified under Death, such as where the book says Death Mage sight would "logically" detect vampires (p.91) and other similar mentions on pages 65 and 94. Whether that means this spell affects Disciplines or not is up to you. Mental Shield, a Mind 2 spell, explicitly defends from " supernatural creature’s mind-affecting abilities" aka Dominate, Majesty, or Terrorize or whatever the Nosferatu scary one is. (p.160-161)
Mind Mage Sight Clashes against Obfuscate. (p.92)

I mean there's less combinations than there were in 1e. No dual kith, 12 instead of 39 kiths. Amount of seemings and courts is unchanged afiak. So there's definitely less options.

Heck in David Hill's version he included 83 kiths, because he knew what people wanted.

You people keep bringing up 'combinations' like that some how makes up for the lack of kiths, but with 1e changeling going by that logic, there are 552 kiths in 1st edition.

>After the effort it took me to get concrete, well articulate answer from you and being namecalled a baiter for being perplexed by gameline I am not familiar with?
One of those explanations was me, which I provided just for your own benefit, not for some dumb argument.

Childhood is idolizing Masquerade lore
Adulthood is realizing Requiem lore is better

But you already have a number of existing splats to help create that kind of specificness, with other options to narrow things down further. It just feels redundant.

That said, is correct. Despite my feelings on Kiths as they are now, they should have just been expanded into the full-on X-splat. CofD hasn't needed to conform to 5 by 5 in a decade, and 1e Changeling sure as hell didn't. Kiths, Courts, and Entitlements would have made everyone happy.

That's far from solid rules, they even state so in for Mage Sight, mentioning Prometheans as far harder to place.

What requiem lore?

How is requiem lore better? Other than the Ordo literally every group is super boring and has 0 interesting hooks compared to OWoD, which had everything from rampant infection disciplines to being bane ridden for some extra tentacles.

Puberty is wanking to Mage.

Dispute it if you want, I don't have a particular horse in this race. I'm just telling you what the book says on the matter.

First you resort in namecalling instead of taking a moment to try to understand what other is confused about and explain it in comprehensible manner, and now, after complaining so much about it, you bait.
Oh, the irony of this all is absurd. I can't even stay mad at you.

>Requiem lore

What lore?

Yeah. Dodge is no longer a thing and dodging dice pools are just covered with Dex + Athletics. You also have a new Awareness talent which covers supernatural perceptions like sensing shit and omens. Disciplines have been reworked too alongside many other tweaks like the Road of Heaven Paths in V20 being one for each of the three Abrahamic religions.

Aside from mechanical stuff, the main difference would be the amount of bang you get for your buck. The 20th Anniversary Edition is intended to be the summation of Dark Ages Vampire content and it fulfills that role quite well, whereas Revised was simply intended to be a corebook alone. A good example of this is bloodlines: 20th has a long list of them that have been updated and compiled while Revised only has the thirteen main clans as playable. This means that if you want to include the Salubri in your chronicles or Tremere Gargoyles then you'll need to pick up additional books if you want Revised and you'll have to refer to those to get the rules and what-not.

Gotcha. Thanks for elaborating, I'll go with 20th then.

I wish the m20 books were as good as the v20 books qq.