How would you make Paladins an enemy for an encounter against a generally Good-leaning party?

Do you remember when your group make you think "Oh god no, guy", well that the reason a good alignment Paladin come for them.

People can hold the same general beliefs but still wildly disagree as to the proper or moral implementation of their ideas. This is like asking how Mitt Romney ends up bitterly opposing Donald Trump. When you phrase it like that suddenly it makes perfect sense: Ideology only carries you so far, personal clashes will always exist and the discrete differences between ideological subfactions are the primary source of conflict in any society. Leon Trotsky and Stalin might've both been communists but they sure fucking hated each other. Same thing with Strasser and Hitler, or, Brutus and Marc Antony, or, Lincoln and Davis.

A Paladin could simply be convinced that however good of a spin the Party puts on their actions, they're basically steering the ship towards a cliff, either intentionally or because of their stupidity, and they need to be stopped. A Paladin would probably try to reason with them first, explain his position, etc. But perhaps because of personal biases and lack of total understanding, this drives a wedge further between them, and he ends up deciding that the only way to stop the party from ruining everything is to kill them. They might not be *evil* but they're delusional and dangerous. They have to be killed! If their hearts are pure they'll be forgiven when Iomadae explains the truth to them in heaven, or whatever.

They're all Javerts, and are absolutely incapable of forgiving the party for any kind of crime or mistake

The fact that Evil Paladin hasn't been spammed reminds me that most people on Veeky Forums don't play traditional games.

Good leaning does not mean good, and sometimes a paladin needs to put the will of God before the concerns of mercy.

Not to mention, a paladin isn't infalible. He may be trying to bring the party to justice for crimes they haven't committed, or to an authority who would cause more harm than good

Good guys who are on the same side but disagree on how to handle something. Example being Paladins who want to negotiate vs players who want to murderhobo it up. Paladins then send a force to stop the players before they start a war? If that doesn't work for you reverse the rolls

Paladins can be evil...

Wrong.

Maybe a member of your party was once a rogue/thief or did something wrong but is now reformed, but the paladin who was just a novice in his order back then has since climbed the ranks and remembers, refusing to believe he/she has changed his ways and holds a grudge/wants to justice done for something your party was never fully convicted for. Basically a version of the plot from Les Miserables, with Javert being the paladin.

youtube.com/watch?v=lXsJ3Q5Z7cM

Show me where OP said he's using the D&D rules.

The part where he said "Good Leaning" and "Paladin" which usually infers D&D.
But even accounting D&D if you're still acting like Alignment matters when you're not an Outer Planes being or god is kind of fucking pointless.

You could try the Lawful vs Good angle, or the other way around.
>paladin, this man is innocent and we need to get him out of this town or he'll be killed by the real villain !
>no user, he is accused of murder and if you believe in justice and due process you will hand him over to me and I will keep him safe

What setting/edition anyway ? Some editions allow fascist but still good hearted paladins.

Somewhat related. I was playing finnaly rolled that stats to play a Paladin in aDnD. So I made a Paladin.
My party is a thief and a magic user. I explained to them I was playing a Paladin so they had to be at a minimum good leaning and couldn't break laws without reason, and even with reason shouldn't let my character know.

Literally day fucking one!!! And I got my Thief using an evil Dagger made from necromancy magic that pings evil, and is trying to use it to "not" control the undead. And our magic user is making deals with evil man tigers, and releasing massive Demons.

How am I supposed to play with this party?

That first sentence, sorry, I'm phone posting.
I rolled the stats needed to play a Paladin in aDnD and wanted to play a Paladin.

>How am I supposed to play with this party?
As soon as innocent lives are put in danger, they're on the list.

I going to rewrite my entire Character, what hurts is my friends don't understand the feels of basically killing my character.

After I clear it and get the OK from the DM. I'm gana be a party bitch who only works to help the party, inside I'll be dead.

Don't my friend. Stay a paladin and become like me a shadow of your own self rotting with evil. at the end of the road you'll be hated by the world, your party, and most npcs, but will have stayed true to yourself, you will remain a paladin in your heart. A man of honor and pride who did hs best to save the world and his party from their own cupidity. Even gods will fear you for what you've become.

That's literally what I want.

But one of the players is my girlfriend, and she doesn't handle conflict very well. And is very ironically "the most good role player who plays so many Totally different Characters and is the most smart rule lawyer who knows this system and moral system she has never seen better than me" so she will fight me and I will win meaning I don't get sex. I'm working with her on controlling her Illogical emotions better.

As honourable opponents from an enemy country. Or perhaps as dickish opponents from an enemy country. Lawful Good doesn't preclude them from being assholes.

Infights between "forces of good" are common be it religious, law or personal feuds.
And said paladin does not have to be understandable reasonable guy.

>one of the players is my girlfriend
Kill me already

No seriously though, hmm what was your gf class again? If it's the thief then why be completely open about what she does then. But only at what she does, lie to yourself and say she is doing right and give in to her schemes but be complete a wall of righteousness when it comes to anyone else. It can be quite fun too, although quite cliche I find it fun. Excuse everything she does but be a complete jerk toward all the other would work too.

After seven month a fake lawful good crusader with a harem from my party banished me in limbo for being well the way I was. Fun thing though is that the party agreed it wasn't just as fun without me so they brought me back.

>not playing Best Edition
Get fucked, 3fag

I guess I can try that. It's kinda hard to, but I guess I can make that work.

Good luck.

I-It's not like if I was interested in how the campaign will go, but do post the story once it ends

It looks like it'll be a long campaign and we will only play it every other week, but sure. I'll post the story when we get to the end. If anything comes up I'll be sure to ask Veeky Forums or make a thread about it.

The other weeks will be me as a DM. Gana be about a 3-4, or 5 session long campaign. I want to see if the players catch on to the fact that it's a rip off from the first Shrek movie. And if they do, how well it will go.

Great! Thanks

Make paladin "divine champion of a god" rather than "Always Lawful Good Knight in Shining Armor".

Then you just have the party encounter malign paladins and zealot paladins.

Simple.

Make them non-human paladins.

Salem witch trials, the inquisition, the fact that true Paladins would probably be pretty rare and most are going to be zealous knights or soldiers. Unless the order is truly operated by god empowered soldiers but I guess that depends on scale a bit.

Non-human Paladins
Kys. This only kinda works sometimes.
But when it dose it can be really good. Like Orcs (only if the orcs in setting can be), turned jnto Paladins because the church is fighting a war on an epic scale and needs the intense fighting nature of orcs to lay down the hammer.
Or wood elves who joined the church as a peace thing and are now priest, Clerics, and paladins of some fertility good or some nature/farm god.
Or high elves joined because they lost their elf city to goblins/w/e and need to get the crusade to help them retake it.
If done right by a good DM those might be cool.
Go ahead and unKYS.

>infers

>Salem witch trials
Were neither lawful nor good, they were the product of hysteria, vindictiveness, and food poisoning.

>the inquisition,
Oh, you mean the institution that was a paragon of due process for its day, considered torture ineffective, and held that belief in the existence of witchcraft was heretical itself? That Inquisition? Or are you under the delusion that the pop-culture image of it based primarily on centuries-old English propaganda is accurate?

two opposing paladin orders have the same claim on a holy ground. god a has done a miracle there. god b founght some faggot in avatar form there. you get hired by the king to resolve the question since they are both pretty much going to wipe eachother out to get to build a shrine on the site.

>one of the players is my girlfriend

>Killing witches isn't lawful or good
Kys.

That Inquisition sounds pretty good to. I'll take it!!!

Or the "pop-culture" one. Either work.

Are you implying a healthy relationship makes me a furry?
Kys. That doesn't make sense.

so chaotic good that they're actually chaotic evil

Don't let your girlfriend or your penis get in the way of your duty user.

>Paladins
>Chaotic.
>Something physically good be evil.
Retard the poster is here.
Paladins can't be chaotic, they have to be Lawful. And Paladins are literally judges for God"s", they cant be evil. They can be bad for a party, but not evil.

>Paladins can't be chaotic, they have to be Lawful.
not in 5E

>And Paladins are literally judges for God"s", they cant be evil.
not in 5E. not only are there multiple different paladin orders but none of them mention a single thing about gods, just faith and ideals.

Their acts can seem evil from an outsider point of view though.

Paladin realizes that their beliefs, while not wrong, are misguided, and that they must radically tear down their organization to bring about the necessary change.

Nice, I like this.
>have the players go through an Operation Valkyrie style mission with the help of a high ranking paladin in the order

Differentiating ideas on what the good thing to do is.
Do you let the demon from his prison since technically he has served his sentance or do you keep him there. These two ideas battle it out, both fueled by moral righteousness.

The paladin has an oath the protect the royals. He will not compromise on this oath.

Well it's a demon, so you smite it. Even while it's in prison, unless said prison keeps it from coming back after death since some demons can just go from hell to "earth".
At your point it would have to be knights Vs. Paladins. Meanings Paladins win.
And Paladins would just smite the demon.
The end.

Kressh is an adorable psychopath that fits perfectly, even considering it's the Sith.

And the palading argues that if angels can fall a demon can rise, wether if its evil or not the creature has paid for its crime and should not be held imprisoned for longer than that as that would be immoral.

Then they argue, duke it out BAM good vs good

But that's retarded. No Paladin would argue that demons can rise. And No Paladin would defend a Demon, they would lose there Paladin hood if they did.

So that would be a fight between fighters with holy symbols and Paladins. The Fighters would just be crippled because they wouldn't have the feat bounous that the fighter class gets.

>considered torture ineffective
If they thought torture was ineffective, how come their tortured the accuser, the witnesses and the defendant to make sure they're telling the truth? Clearly, they've thought it works.

I was using it in a more narrative term rather than rules terms. I don't play d&d or pathfinder so their rules about Paladins being lawful in this edition or that edition don't really apply. As said, they can believe they're completely justified in what they're doing and that it's a good thing. That's pretty much the Scarlet Crusade at its inception. People who believed they were doing good by slaughtering everyone who wasn't them out of belief that those who were not devout were infected with the plague (a belief that holds some weight, as anyone who channels the light is immune to disease), and thus had to be purged. And they're still of the belief that what they do is good.

And a lot of humanfags on retail rp servers tend to agree with them, we shall never escape them

Well enforceing the law to an extreme is still lawful. Even if you don't like the law.
The fact that you don't like the law makes you chaotic or chaotic leaning.

You don't need to change what something is when being what it is makes it be what it be.

Since your party is chaotic just have the paladins attack you for being anti-lawful.

I'm, not? That's not the point. And it's not enforcing the law if there's no rule of law except what the Paladins want to make it. They believe they ARE the law, which is chaotic from a certain point of view. Which is why D&D alignments are awful and I shouldn't have even said it because I knew someone autistic would reply to it exactly like this.

...

>No Paladin would argue that demons can rise.
Why not, if they are champions of justice and good why are demons exempted from redemption. Besides the paladin has clearly been holding to paladinhood up until this point so clearly his god must be okay with the end results. Presuming evil of someone for their race, even more after they have legaly served their sentance is practically evil.

Says the opposing paladin, ready to smack some of its morality into you.

Mind control.
Blind fury.
No bulli.
;-;

Throw the paladin you want to make fall at them, and if he's successful, have him fall afterward, but that's grim compensation as his success means the party is kill.

Religious schism or reformatory notion.

While neither are evil, both the party and the paladin order need the same Macguffin for different purposes and there's no time left to talk things over.

Make them duty bound, have that duty conflict with the party's goals.

They're being misinformed and/or their families are being held hostage by the villain, the villain can observe them somehow, whatever.

The party has fucked with something. An item, artifact, whatever. They have done something FORBIDDEN by the highest authority, for objectively good reasons. It doesn't matter if the players didn't mean to set off the Doomsday Timer, the only way to turn it off is to have the Chrono-Paladins smite them. Had the Paladins known about the Doomsday clock's exact location they would have secured it. The party's execution order is a tragedy, especially if there is a paladin amongst its members, but for the Good of the world, they must die.

That's a thing I like about 5e, it encourages you to do what you want and lets you be flexible

>Hey Buddy.
>Sorry that it had to be like this.
>There is a method to what you might call madness. In a dream, my God showed me a vision. Forests going bare, fields going barren, tenements crowded and not enough work to go around. Mass starvation, people living in broken houses, and even the kings be humbled to the standards of peasants with the growing scarcities. Families tear each other apart over such a little thing... a bite of bread.
>We are growing overpopulated. We are outgrowing our world, but do not have a means to transcend it. So we must cut back on our growth. We must trim the fat.
>Yes, this plague was of my fabrication. Yes, I know what I've done. I hear ghosts of a scream far beyond earshot when I rest my head, knowing that what I'm doing is causing people to suffer. But even now, the burden of the people is far too heavy for any farm or forest to withstand. Tomorrow, without me, without what I am going to do, it will be even worse.
>This is what the plague is for. To ensure the security of the lives we currently have, our longevity. Lives lost, not to hate, not to despair, but to nature. No one will be to blame for this, no one should be...
>This twisted game has to be reset.

Like this.

In order to do the right thing, the party has to do something bad.
Maybe they had to kidnap the princess to use her in the dark ritual to summon a demon to destroy a meteor, maybe they need an ancient relic sealing a god of destruction to thwart the plans of a black magoscientist, maybe the world is about to break the 1 million population limit that will cause ayylmaos to come down and purge the surface of life, so a bit of genocide is called for, whatever.

Satan >from my point of view the good guys are evil!
Good guys >bitch are you retarded.

Demons are anti-god. Meaning god hates them, no line of respect. If god doesn't want you, YOU CAN NOT RISE!
Demons can't rise, and by the word of God (law) we smite them.

Any aurgement that demons are good isn't coming from a Paladin.

>Can play a not Paladin and call it Paladin
>Can play LG succubus
>Can play as god
>Can play as something that is a literal contradiction.
5e sucks. KYS.

A fallen paladin spiraling out-of-control who uses magical items to simulate paladin abilities in order to convince everyone around him (and himself) that he is still favored by his god.

>This thing I don't understand is retarded, and I shouldn't talk because someone would put me in my place.
Just get in your place and learn to not be a dumbass.

I like this one. Do that. That is game be a character I play now.

>Game be
Going to be
Fuck auto correct.

That would probably be a very sub-optimal pc, but go for it I guess

This, basically. It’s hard to pull off in a way that doesn’t come across as ridiculously contrived. (How could a smite-‘em-all overzealous paladin go for long without falling, anyway? They’re bound to start hitting innocent people by their very nature, and they won’t feel any remorse about it.)

Yes, but it rarely becomes a lethal quarrel. Two mostly-good people will talk over their differences extensively, and resort to violence only as a last resort.

Also, Hitler and Stalin seem like bad examples in this particular case.

>paladin, this man is innocent and we need to get him out of this town or he'll be killed by the real villain !
>no user, he is accused of murder and if you believe in justice and due process you will hand him over to me and I will keep him safe
The last campaign I was in practically specialized in this stuff, but it never came to blows— our party’s approach was always “We need strong evidence backing our claims, and a persuasive argument! Let’s investigate!” This was primarily due to the fact that all our characters were good people who hated the idea of fighting other good people, but it’s also true that the local authorities would have demolished us in a fight, and if we won they’d be weakened in any future fight against the real villains.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but your autism is terminal user.

>Well it's a demon, so you smite it. Even while it's in prison, unless said prison keeps it from coming back after death since some demons can just go from hell to "earth".
Any sensible baseline for “good” has to include some variant of “I don’t start killing people without a pretty good reason.” It makes sense for a paladin to be deeply, deeply skeptical of a demon’s supposed good intentions, but smitebot kill-on-sight stuff is wildly unreasonable.

What’s much more likely, IMHO, is that a paladin would suspect that a justice system which would releases a demon is deeply corrupt. It’s incredibly fishy. Someone’s on the take. Maybe the whole thing’s rotten from top to bottom. Who authorized this release? Who did the sentencing? What was the crime? Where’s the evidence? The witnesses? Why, in short, is a demon getting off this lightly? Inquiring paladins want to know.

...

I'm no more a fan of smitebots than you are, but demons seem like a reasonable exception to “I don’t start killing people without a pretty good reason.” They're DEMONS.

I suppose that’s very much a “depends on the setting” thing, yeah. In some cases, it may be sensible to give a demon the benefit of the doubt; in others, the only sensible reaction may be to RIP AND TEAR.

Anime has ruined me. Apparently I now default to thinking of demons as cute. CUTE!!

I guess Veeky Forums‘s “Cute demon, wat do?” threads haven’t helped.

Doesn't matter. It's inherent to the concept. A nongood paladin is an oxymoron