What's wrong with the Drow?

What's wrong with the Drow?

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The idea that a matriarchal society made up of a subspecies of a race where both sexes tend to look extremely feminine does not have a middle class of qt dark skinned traps in their hierarchical structure is ridiculous.

Inherently, nothing
The problem is Drizzt made the entire species unplayable in polite society
If you can swing Drow without Drizzt, you're doing okay

They're a race that
>Is created solely to appeal to femdom fetishists
>Bases it's whole culture on backstabbing - no way to create any sort of a society that lasts more than a day. The excuse is "A goddess keeps them stable", which is some extremely shitty writing.

Is that Yolandi?

not the fucking die antwoord

Please stay on-topic.

>The excuse is "A goddess keeps them stable", which is some extremely shitty writing

No, it's not, because here's the thing. "A goddess keeps their society stable" would be shitty writing it the drow were shown to have a basically functional society BUT also shown as individuals to be backstabbing assholes - if the description of them as a whole and the description of them as individuals didn't match and couldn't be reconciled and "a goddess does it" was used to handwave that issue away in an attempt to get you to stop asking questions about it.

But that's not the case. Rather, it's shown that their society is constantly on the verge of collapse, BUT Lolth always steps in to prevent its fall, usually at the last minute. The impression is SUPPOSED to be that, by all rights, drow society should have exterminated itself eons ago, and only the whims of Lolth keep it around.

You're not supposed to stop asking "why hasn't it fallen?", you're supposed to realize just how inept and artificial this society really is and how if Lolth ever screws up, the whole thing will fall apart like a house of cards facing a stiff breeze.

(This has happened in my setting, by the way. The Underdark has become a bloodbath as a result, to the point where drow civilian refugees and even some lesser noble houses are fleeing to the surface world, some of them even so desperate as to beg for sanctuary from surface elves)

Sounds like shitty writtig to me

And how is this any good, or any different from what I've said?

>wall of text to disprove anons point
>personal blog about your shitty setting
>proves the exact point user made

Narcissism much?

falsemachine.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/black-glass.html

Still the best.

They tend to be flanderized heavily.

Leave Veeky Forums m8.

Their D&D society and culture is dogshit. I enjoy their aesthetic, but not their theme. I have never used drow in my campaigns as D&D presents them, I always do something different with them or just make them a part of society alongside the other races.

I dont know, it sounded pretty sustained. Why do you think it's shitty

Their PCs are always massive cunts and money whores.

Because he doesn't actually know how to read. He's used to TV piping him everything he needs to know and the writing of TV producers and movie makers who have to simplify everything for him to understand it, so anything that isn't one of those two things sounds contrived and stupid.

When did Nissa turn black?
I remember her being regular elf.

Drow specifically, rather than dark elves or night elves in general, are about as well known as the most iconic member of their race. That's what's wrong with them. Too many Drow characters reference Drizz't or his backstory or the sorts of places he came from, and there's not a lot else that's well established for people to draw on without making up new stuff and hitting the "why bother calling this new race Drow?" problem.

Dwarves have a similar problem. A lot of Dwarf traits are just Gimli traits. Makes it hard to make a character that feels like a dwarf who isn't just Gimli 2.0 or Beardaxe Alehammer.

I outlined exactly why it's different, but to reiterate, the fact that Lolth is the only thing holding their society together isn't intended as a handwave, "stop asking questions and just let it happen" thing. Rather it's the POINT of their society, that they're constantly on the verge of collapse and are held together only by the whims of a mad goddess.

Saying "it just works" is meant to end the line of questioning, which is generally shitty writing because it means that all the problems are still there and the writer just doesn't want you to ask about them anymore. There are exceptions to this, but usually only in lighthearted comedies (such as, say, Mystery Science Theater 3000: "If you're wondering how he eats and breathes, and other science facts/just repeat to yourself 'It's just a show, I should really just relax!'")

With Lolth, the writers are saying "it doesn't work. Everything you're saying is absolutely true. Sounds like a good campaign hook, doesn't it?"

It's a question of focus, how well thought-out the answer is, and whether or not the answer impacts the world itself; the difference between, say:

>Q: "Why does Batman have so many gadgets?"

>Handwave Answer: "He's rich."
>Detail Answer: "He's the owner and majority shareholder of Wayne Enterprises, a technology company with a large R&D department that has a large number of holdings in various fields. He embezzles a large portion of his gadgets from Wayne Enterprises, hiding what is essentially theft thanks to the expertise of his CEO, Lucius Foxx, who knows he's Batman and cooks the books for him."

I handled this in my setting by having the backstabbing nobility be only a small part of their society, with the heavy lifting being done by the large independent male underclass and the conspiracy of non-backstabbing priestesses.

They're 13% of elves but 50% of elf inmates.

At first I was like "what is this retard talking about". Then I looking closer at her face. Holy shit! They made her a nigger! When did this happen? Has this always been a thing?

>Lucius Foxx
>Foxx
>xx
For some reason that sounds like a pornstar name.

It's just one artist being a lazy tracing asshole. Though, her features always were somewhat unconventional when she was introduced.

Pic related is a later image of her. She's actually gotten prettier as time has gone on, almost entirely in step with her character flaws being ironed out and her backstory been cleared up of all that problematic racism.

You're not wrong.

xvideos.com/video23361242/lucia_foxx_and_kamilly_santos_shemale_orgy_party

>lucia_foxx
Oh my!

ITT: I don't like thing therefore thing is bad

Dragon Magazine happened.

If you are going to use the drow, use the City of Sheloth or Eberron as a guide, not the cringe shit that is spewed for teh memes.

They tend to either edgelords or special snowflakes because their presented materials make it difficult to be anything other than a rebellious snowflake a la Drizzt, or an evil edgelord like they are in the fluff. I've never seen a drow PC done well in a serious game.

Nothing. Great villains, great fetish fuel.

I was not expecting that on Veeky Forums, but you made my day user.

>We’re Black! We Know It! We ain’t White! We Definitely Ain’t White!

>American low class culture is the same as Safrican low class culture

>What's wrong with the Drow?
they're just underground fantasy dark eldar lmayo

The fact that some how the god of BETRAYAL has tons of super loyal followers and basically dictates the entire racial culture. Despite you know, the highborn drow having huge intelligent bonuses and no penalty to wisdom, they still think "You know... Yea, I think adopting betrayal as the core tenant of our civic fabric is a great idea".

Even more so, the fact that their society hasn't been conquered by slavers or underground not-romans. Because lets be honest, being a man in Drow societies for the most part is absolute shit, they should be trying to undermine the entirety of their society VIA THE DECEPTION THAT THEIR CULTURE PROMOTES to destroy it.

Drow society is an anthill m8.

Weird fact: back in the day, the githzerai were actually hugely anarchistic despite their psionic powers, and originally had the AD&D character trait "Cannot be Lawful in alignment". The modern depiction of the githzerai as grim, stoic, Lawful characters? That actually was reverse-adapted from Dak'kon, who was supposed to be a githzerai *outcast*.

Lolth isn't the goddess of betrayal. Her portfolio is spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, and drow.

>they should be trying to undermine the entirety of their society VIA THE DECEPTION THAT THEIR CULTURE PROMOTES to destroy it.

They are. Try reading a book with drow society in it at some point.

Their players.

WE WUZ KANGZ AND SHEEIT

Nailed it

/thread

Elf racism?
Please elaborate user
I know nothing of MTG or whoever this character is.

Drow are North Korea. It's that simple.

Lirial(Sp) Baenre, Jarlaxle(no admitted last name, but also Baenre).

What's ironic is that Gimli (the actual book one) doesn't follow that stereotype much. Well he has an axe.

Good answer.

I hate Drizz't. That's probably why I actually like the Drow.

Neon is #10

Wow what a dumb fucking nazi; that is literally the pic the artist was exposed for plagiarizing the likeness of the WHITE girl from die antwood.

I'll not have you talking about Beardaxe Alehammer in that way!

That's accurate overall. I think the key difference with the dwarfs is that the characters that exemplify the race are not subversions of that race, as is Drizzt's issue for me. I think drow can be fine to have and use but Drizzt is so closely tied that its difficult to have them as the evil culture they are without constantly expecting a subversion to show up.

Generally, people who like dwarfs enjoy rather than resent the classic examples of them in literature and games. Generally.

Him calling someone a nigger doesn't make him a nazi, it makes him a racist. You can be both on the extreme left and the most racist person to ever exist, the same way you can be a full-blown nazi and not be racist at all. Racism has nothing to do with political allignment.

As a ''leftist'' and a brony and an MRA et cetera,
it stands to be pointed out that o.g. National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) were pretty left, way left of burger Democrats, right of Juche (Korean: 주체) parties.

Zef drow elves would be fun.

The character is called Nissa. When she was introduced she was a member of a group of backwards, isolationist elves from a world where the main elvish population are actually the most traveled, friendly, and cosmopolitan species around. Even among her kin she was wary of outsiders, and when she gained the ability to hop to other universes, her first instinct was to just go home and never ever have to interact with any non-elves again. She didn't hate other races, she just didn't like them and assumed the worst of them - and definitely saw their lives as less meaningful or worth defending than those of elves.

It should be noted that this was initially presented as a huge character flaw that eventually led to her unleashing eldritch gods of world-eating on her home because of her inability to trust anyone without pointy ears.

Anyway, a whole bunch of shit happens and WotC decide she's going to be their iconic Green mage. Her characters takes a complete left turn, all fiction relating to her past now conveniently forgets about her tribalist racism, to the extent of brushing over her involvement in the eldritch god event that shaped the course of MtG fluff for the following decade. At first they tried a soft change, actually trying to have her learn and move on, but then someone on the writing team had an aneurysm or something and they just completely rewrote her and decided to never address this stuff ever again when referencing her backstory. As a result she's pretty much the least interesting of the main characters, as all her previous traits and motivations have been boiled away until all that remains is "nice" and "likes nature."

Nothing. Drow are demon worshipping nega-elves that live in a blacklight kingdom.

>mfw I realized that there wasn't any drow traps in the vein of Gywndolin from Dark Souls so their parents could have more power. Or live in slavery if their parents are good somehow for whatever fucking reason.

yes and then hitlers bois killed them for being leftist

Poor writing from hacks accumulating over the decades.

You can't be a Nazi and not also racist. Nazism is literally defined by its extreme emphasis on the racial purity of the German/Aryan people and the impurity of all other races. That's what distinguishes it from the actual Fascism invented by Mussolini and propagated into pre-Anschluss Austria and elsewhere.

I mean, unless you mean the people in 1930s Germany who joined the Nazi party just as a job or something; then yeah, sure, you can be a Nazi and not racist. But no one since 1945 can possibly make a claim to be a Nazi and yet not racist with a straight face.

There's also "may or may not want to bang Chandra".

>Bases it's whole culture on backstabbing - no way to create any sort of a society that lasts more than a day. The excuse is "A goddess keeps them stable"
I've actually seen it presented the other way round: The drow have the ordinary instinct of social animals to an orderly society, and Lolth constantly encourages individuals to defect from the greater society, knocking order down so that her 'worshipers' can set it back up.

They shouldn't be a homogeneous society of monolithic noble houses that worship a spider goddess. There should be lawful evil imperialistic city states, chaotic evil religious extremes clans, Neutral evil amoral merchants and slavers and a variety of arcane colleges and lodges that compete and cooperate against each other as they please.

Quick question, and I know someone is going to answer it. Why do people think Nazism means white supremacy, when as you stated/we all know, it was Aryan supremacy?

All white-supremist Americans claim to be Aryan.

>There should be lawful evil imperialistic city states, chaotic evil religious extremes clans, Neutral evil amoral merchants and slavers and a variety of arcane colleges and lodges that compete and cooperate against each other as they please.
Drow already are this. Not their fault if you've never looked into that.

>both sexes tend to look extremely feminine
What if OP didn't want a meme answer though

What said. It doesn't help that Hitler never really nailed down exactly what "Aryan" meant. He certainly meant ethnic Germans, but he also included Nords, who are of a related but distinct racial stock; but he excluded Slavs despite them also being related to Germans and Nords and arguably less mixed with other races than the former. He considered the English and America to be fundamentally Aryan despite England being about as racially pure as a whore and America even less so. And he called the Japanese "honorary Aryans" despite the Japanese having no relation to Germans at all.

Also, do you really expect a glut of intelligence from people who take up Nazism?

Seems more like a top of the bottom deal. Like something that wouldn't fly in the Houses without Lolth smiting it but a gangleader might do to show his status.

Nothing. They are nigger feminists. Progs approve.

I think Lolth was incorporated into drow society quite well, I don't know whether it was Salvatore's work or was done before him but kudos to the dude who designed the drow society.

It tackles the "how does a society which worship an evil deity" problem quite well. Its society is quite unique and fun to read. I think thats why homeland is considered better than icewind dale series and also certain spinoff novels were made without drizzt (like war of the spider queen) I do believe drows are well designed in that regard

Similar to Cheliax in pathfinder I loved how they incorporated literal devil worship into a whole society. Not some npc cultists mind you but an enitre nation. Quite fascinating, I wish they improved on golarion a bit rather than keeping it as a "bland do whatever gms want" setting, but thats just me

>where both sexes tend to look extremely feminine
Any kind of elf thread is plagued by people that know shit about elves.

They're assholes

>Also, do you really expect a glut of intelligence from people who take up Nazism?
No, but it always bothered me similar to neo-communists saying "that's not real communism"/

OP pic made me kek. That is all

Just because you can tell it's a guy doesn't mean he's not feminine. That pic you posted is a great example. From his face to his clothes and even the way he's posing makes him look very feminine. There's nothing wrong with a man being feminine or a woman being masculine but to pit your hair in pigtails and making the claim, through your pink painted lips, that you don't look ando is just silly.

What a vague question. In-universe, well that's pretty obvious. They're a bunch of bondage-loving, backstabbing, paranoid, batshit insane sociopaths whose societal tenets glorify all of the above, held together only by virtue of the whims of an insane spider-fucking goddess.

Gamewise? Players who lack creativity and just play drow without really understanding the implications of the society they hailed from or, in the case of those born outside of drow society, how the world at large might view them.

They have black skin, whereas unground species have pale skin

Maybe his pose and the hair, but he's certainly not "extremely feminine". Anybody that uses any variant of this kind to describes elves is just a meming faggot that wants to shit on them.

Here, have a look at this extremely feminie male drow.

>What a vague question
Pretty sure OP intended this to be a shitposting thread.

But they do have pale skin.

No, that's just wrong.

They aren't Dunmer

i fink u freeki an i like yu alot

That swishy queen is why the term butt pirate exists. Shaving his head doesn't make him look more masculine. Probably only did it so his wigs fit better

But they do. That's why it hurts them to go out in the sun.

>What's wrong with the Drow?
People.

I was in a game where the DM had essentially created his own setting, while still drawing on the basic realities of D&D. So drow existed, and were ruthless underground fuckers who hated surface elves, but they were a bit less than the ridiculously, baby-eating level of evil that they're often portrayed as. And their history, which was revealed over the course of the game, was a bit less black and white. Indeed, it was the drow who were initially betrayed, and their cruelty resulted from a combination of outrage at being wronged, and the sheer necessity of what was required to live in their savage, subterranean environment.

But they were still easily recognizable as drow, and they weren't a hard concept to grasp. One of the players, however, had a preconceived idea of what drow were like, based on the (Forgotten Realms?) stuff he'd read about them, and essentially refused to deviate from that. He wouldn't flat out tell the DM "you're wrong" when he would portray the drow differently, but he'd throw in short lectures on how evil and irredeemable the drow were, and had his character interpret even the most bland, neutral things about them as evidence of villainy, to the point of attacking a drow because another party member suggested that she heal him. Okay, he actually only threatened her by pointing his crossbow at her when the other PC suggested that she heal him (she hadn't even reacted to what was said), but this prompted her to hold a knife in a defensive "keep back" manner, which prompted him to shoot her in the face.

Anyway, the point is that even if everybody isn't as big a chucklefuck as that, they still bring a lot of baggage to the table, and when that baggage is the most edgy, extreme, evil conception of something, it can be a bit more tenacious than for more subdued shit.

well thats rpg's for you
80% of every setting fans or players are fucking toxic morons

Every time a thread like this comes up I hear people going "their so society doesn't make sense! It's so stupid and unbelievable." and I just don't get it.

Maybe I'm just more open to dipping into headcanon but the Drow are an aesthetic and you don't have a requirement to push the evil and duplicity to a set in stone level. It's whatever you're comfortable with. So long as they're edgelord elves with black, pointy objects, and Lolth your fine.

It's like the oft used warrior race from the warrior land. Because that's their defining feature most characters encountered in the story are going to reflect those traits, but it's simple to reason that warrior land also has tailors and carpenters that are perfectly happy with their life. It's gruffer than normal but people aren't fighting to the death 24/7.

Same deal with drow. They have tailors, fetchers, and tavern keepers who aren't trying to poison people every 5 minutes.

Personally I see them as a mix of Aztec, ancient greeks, renaissance italian city states, and a pinch of Jews. Aztecs were mostly normal people with a fucked up culture that had them occasionally skin people and wear their skins like it was normal. Drow too are mostly normal people that are taught to accept their edgelord culture from birth. The era of the Medici and the Borgia might have had a lot of oligarchic power struggle, subterfuge, intermittent violence, and decadence but that doesn't mean the society wasn't also extremely accomplish.

>"muh elves aren't feminine!"
>posts two images of extreme faggot drows
> queen look at the angle of my hips, and miss butt pirate

ayyy

>Knife ear nigger radical feminists
Whats not to love?

Also drowtales was amazing.

I want to know who Yolandi is

>shitting on Jarlaxle
Now you did it. You can leave.

You don't shit on Jarlaxle

he shits on your dick

How vulgar, doesn't even deserve a (You).

>Bases it's whole culture on backstabbing - no way to create any sort of a society that lasts more than a day.

You sound pretty sheltered, m8

>Hi! I'm retarded.
Right.

OG Nazism was all about German domination of Europe, i.e. throwing off the shackles of Versailles and making Germany great again. Sufficiently "Aryan" states such as Norway were to be regarded as allies/co-racialists, but really, post-war, everyone else was supposed to end up as Germany's bitch.

It's no different from the system of "sister republics" set up around Europe by France under Napoleon, the Soviet Union and their Warsaw Pact, and so on. Different flag, same shit.

Chad-zak.

That's Brom's artwork, though. He hasn't drawn anything super manly since he did the Doom II cover and he even managed to make the most feminine version of Doomguy that we've got.